Invasion of the Chinese CT

[BigJules]

I saw this link about a group of Australian CT manufacturers forming an industry lobby group, Australian Manufactured Camper Trailer Guild (AMCTG).

One their first items is to raise the issue of some campers apparently being passed off as Australian made when this is not the case.

[Prado BB]

 

[Bird]

They are really feeling the pinch... The dozens of places selling "TOP QUARITY CAMPER TRAIRER" are popping up everywhere and at 3000 on ebay, you cant blame people for looking, specially the use them 2-3 times a year people. they couldnt care less about quarity controrl

I think this group are a bit late on this.

Many of the places on Ebay and elsewhere that are frogging the cheap trairer wouldnt care less what they men from S.A.U.S.A.G.E or AMCTG have to say. they are in for a quick sale and lots of plofit and peace off

[Big Nath]

Value for money, imports win hands down.

Maybe some of these Aussie manufacturers need to pull their heads in.

The Chinese theory, little profit, sell lots! Aussie theory, make Shitloads sell a few!

IMHO

BTW i have owned both, a local and an import.

Cheers

[DannyG]

Yeh can of worms this one.

One side (the Chinese CT owners and importers) are going to put up a good case for what they own and what the importer is doing. Likewise the guy who spent 15k plus to buy a local made product and the local manufacturers are going to have some very valid points on their side.

I agree that the importers shouldn't be showing photos of their Aussie manufacturing workshop and saying they are made in Australia when clearly they are not.

Fair enough they may put them together in Australia and in some cases they put some bird poo weld on the draw bar to help if the bolts fail but that's hardly being 'made' in Australia.

However, Chinese CT's have a place. Sadly it is very much effecting the local industry. But it will not change and the local industry is going to have to deal with it.

I personally have looked at several of the Chinese CT's and I am first to admit some of them are border line dangerous in their manufacturing quality.
But a couple I have seen are not too bad. Sure they have limitations and the finishing off or quality control is not where it could be but there is a huge market of people who are happy to work with and accept these limitations. It only becomes a problem when the unsuspecting customer who has no real idea buys one of these 'off road' trailers and the bolts come loose and the draw bar falls off while they are on holidays! Or worse, something breaks that wasn't up to standard and someone gets hurt or killed. But Aussie standards and roadworthy or engineering checks are not my business, that's up to the bureaucrats to sort out.

I use and thrash A LOT of Chinese products and I have had a very good run with them, so given that I pick and choose the Chinese product I am going to use I have had a really good run with quality. Sure I have gone to purchase some Chinese made items and they were never going to hold up to the job so I didnt buy them, so very poor quality products are definitely out there. But the point I am making is that China DOES in some instances make very good products when they are manufacturing to a set standard.

You only have to look at how many local CT manufacturers use imported tents!! I recently had a local manufacturer bag the crap out of Chinese made products yet as it turns out they use imported tents on their locally made trailers. And going by the sales spill their tents were the best tent ever made. (it was the same style and quality tent as most of the ebay CT's use)

Is there a large well known Aussie CT manufacturer selling a good product at a very competitive price who are obviously manufacturing the trailer locally BUT using mostly Imported items to manufacture their product?? Hmmm Imported tent, stainless kitchen, hitch, water tanks, all associated accessories to do with suspension and I have to wonder if the steel is even imported?? Only putting it out there, Im not speaking factual. Just suggesting it is also a grey area when it comes to 'aussie made'

So I guess in my opinion some Chinese products are more than worthy. Just like only some Aussie made products are worthy.

The local CT industry can form as many groups as they like they will not stop the imports. Im all for them trying to regulate what can and cant be fobbed off as 'made in Australia' and for making sure our roads are safe by having a certain minimum standard for the manufacturing of trailers but Im not for an industry sooking because they can not compete.

Bit of a rant but just my opinion.


EDIT: I just read the article, they pretty much say what I was honking on about....except the part where I use some well made products from China!

[Bird]

Yeh can of worms this one.

One side (the Chinese CT owners and importers) are going to put up a good case for what they own and what the importer is doing. Likewise the guy who spent 15k plus to buy a local made product and the local manufacturers are going to have some very valid points on their side.

I agree that the importers shouldn't be showing photos of their Aussie manufacturing workshop and saying they are made in Australia when clearly they are not.

Fair enough they may put them together in Australia and in some cases they put some bird poo weld on the draw bar to help if the bolts fail but that's hardly being 'made' in Australia.

However, Chinese CT's have a place. Sadly it is very much effecting the local industry. But it will not change and the local industry is going to have to deal with it.

I personally have looked at several of the Chinese CT's and I am first to admit some of them are border line dangerous in their manufacturing quality.
But a couple I have seen are not too bad. Sure they have limitations and the finishing off or quality control is not where it could be but there is a huge market of people who are happy to work with and accept these limitations. It only becomes a problem when the unsuspecting customer who has no real idea buys one of these 'off road' trailers and the bolts come loose and the draw bar falls off while they are on holidays! Or worse, something breaks that wasn't up to standard and someone gets hurt or killed. But Aussie standards and roadworthy or engineering checks are not my business, that's up to the bureaucrats to sort out.

I use and thrash A LOT of Chinese products and I have had a very good run with them, so given that I pick and choose the Chinese product I am going to use I have had a really good run with quality. Sure I have gone to purchase some Chinese made items and they were never going to hold up to the job so I didnt buy them, so very poor quality products are definitely out there. But the point I am making is that China DOES in some instances make very good products when they are manufacturing to a set standard.

You only have to look at how many local CT manufacturers use imported tents!! I recently had a local manufacturer bag the crap out of Chinese made products yet as it turns out they use imported tents on their locally made trailers. And going by the sales spill their tents were the best tent ever made. (it was the same style and quality tent as most of the ebay CT's use)

Is there a large well known Aussie CT manufacturer selling a good product at a very competitive price who are obviously manufacturing the trailer locally BUT using mostly Imported items to manufacture their product?? Hmmm Imported tent, stainless kitchen, hitch, water tanks, all associated accessories to do with suspension and I have to wonder if the steel is even imported?? Only putting it out there, Im not speaking factual. Just suggesting it is also a grey area when it comes to 'aussie made'

So I guess in my opinion some Chinese products are more than worthy. Just like only some Aussie made products are worthy.

The local CT industry can form as many groups as they like they will not stop the imports. Im all for them trying to regulate what can and cant be fobbed off as 'made in Australia' and for making sure our roads are safe by having a certain minimum standard for the manufacturing of trailers but Im not for an industry sooking because they can not compete.

I'd he happier if they worked on the quality of the imports than a label 'Aust made'..
As you said, some of them are down right dangerous..
Wheres the thread where the bloke bought one with the bolts holding on the drawbar that were finger tight. <- that there will kill people, and get all trailers in a bad light.

[BigJules]

There is no doubt that China does produce quality products, as well as cheap and nasty.

[Big Nath]

I totally agree with you both. the build quality is not quite there, but in saying that nor is the price.
Lost i have just finished reading your posts about your Lifestyles CT, and i noticed the tent covers failed. id be interested to know if they were Aust or imported.

The Value for money in them i see is that for the balance of the 15K Aust made camper, that allows for a lot of mods/finishing touches. As long as you know one end of a spanner to the other the Chinese CTs arent that bad.

IMHO

Cheers

[DANBRI]

I used to make a lot of canvas gear. Yes some items are expensive when you look at it from the outside, but you need to rationalise the costs; nobody is getting rich from selling an Aussie made camper, nobody. Keep the views rational by comparison to other industries, please don't be biased because this is your leasure hobby and a passion. Add it all up, labour costs are expensive in Australia, we want bigger wages, we will pay higher prices! This is not my view, it's real! If we had the cost sheets of a Kimberly for example, I think you'd be surprised on the costs of items on the camper and the man hours involved.

I could still compete with these importers, but truth be told I value my time over a $10 per hour wage. Add up machine servicing (interest etc if you don't own your equipment) courier cost of having materials delivered (you need 100k to keep everything in stock that everyone wants and you'll always end up with a 50m roll of material that you paid $25 per meter, that nobody wants etc) floor space, etc etc, ink for invoice printers etc, it seriously just keeps adding up. The bigger you are, the easier it is, but it can get out of control quickly too, and there's greater risk.

It's a shame, and a lot of Aussie canvas makers have supplemented with repairs of imported products. I don't do this as if I stitch one section, it simply rips next to it. This is evolution and I am not complaining my any means!

My issue is the claim of "16oz RipStop Canvas" it really bothers me to think people are getting ripped off believing this rubbish when in reality, next to Australian made canvas it is more likely closer to 8oz and is very coarse by comparison (which enables the import to hold moisture = mould).

[Big Nath]

I used to make a lot of canvas gear. Yes some items are expensive when you look at it from the outside, but you need to rationalise the costs; nobody is getting rich from selling an Aussie made camper, nobody. Keep the views rational by comparison to other industries, please don't be biased because this is your leasure hobby and a passion. Add it all up, labour costs are expensive in Australia, we want bigger wages, we will pay higher prices! This is not my view, it's real! If we had the cost sheets of a Kimberly for example, I think you'd be surprised on the costs of items on the camper and the man hours involved.

I could still compete with these importers, but truth be told I value my time over a $10 per hour wage. Add up machine servicing (interest etc if you don't own your equipment) courier cost of having materials delivered (you need 100k to keep everything in stock that everyone wants and you'll always end up with a 50m roll of material that you paid $25 per meter, that nobody wants etc) floor space, etc etc, ink for invoice printers etc, it seriously just keeps adding up. The bigger you are, the easier it is, but it can get out of control quickly too, and there's greater risk.

It's a shame, and a lot of Aussie canvas makers have supplemented with repairs of imported products. I don't do this as if I stitch one section, it simply rips next to it. This is evolution and I am not complaining my any means!

My issue is the claim of "16oz RipStop Canvas" it really bothers me to think people are getting ripped off believing this rubbish when in reality, next to Australian made canvas it is more likely closer to 8oz and is very coarse by comparison (which enables the import to hold moisture = mould).

Very Very valid point Danbri.

i think the bigger price gap comes from the accessories. Alot of the big Aussie builders have options to upgrade, however you the imported ones have them as standard. If the Aussie manufactures were serious about slowing the growth rate down they would reduce there profits. As a camper manufacturer both here and OS they would have the exact same costs, labor, warehouse etc etc. Plus freight. in a 20ft container u can get 6 Ct's. The average cost of a camper landed Sydney port is 3800-4000. (i have looked into it)

I often see Aussie sellers offering upgrades. include a 40L fridge. BUT the price doesn't reflect that of a 40L fridge. its increased an extra 20%. so your better off going to BCF and picking one up your self. I think the CT market is becoming a "niche" market and they are charging us a premium.

Cheers

[Bird]

Add it all up, labour costs are expensive in Australia, we want bigger wages, we will pay higher prices! This is not my view, it's real!

Give the man a prize.

This is why there is barely *ANY* manufacturing in Aust anymore. When things cost more, you want a bigger wage, when you have a bigger wage costs go up, etc... its a big greedy wheel.

how many people in AU would go working for what Yai We Won gets in China in a sweat shop?

[Redback]

I'd he happier if they worked on the quality of the imports than a label 'Aust made'..
As you said, some of them are down right dangerous..
Wheres the thread where the bloke bought one with the bolts holding on the drawbar that were finger tight. <- that there will kill people, and get all trailers in a bad light.

Spot on Bruce, get the knobs importing them, not the makers back in China, it's the duty of the importer/distributurer to make sure the quality is there or improved it for Australian Regs and quality control.

From the ones I've checked out, it's only the top that is made in China, the only one I know of that is totally made in China, then shipped to Aust for assembly is Trak Shak, look at the $$$ they are asking for their campers

Baz.

[Brutus]

I have been looking for a CT for 6 to 12 mths and now I have the cash I am getting totally confused as what to buy and what to stay away from??? I have checked out many on Ebay which all look really good come with everything that some of the "Aussie made" offer for roughly double the price. Now I would rather spend a few extra bucks and buy local made but the minister for finances doesn't see it that way. She looks at price first and has no concept for quality and if something needs fixing down the track then so b it........

Considering their aren't too many manufactured about in Tassie I am now looking at getting a locally built trailer and then source the best tent to fit the budget then add any mods down the track. I am no mechanic and cosmetically the Ebay CT's look good and you can see why many buy them for a once or twice a year camper.

We all know the reasons behind chinese vs aussie prices but I guess it's up to the individual as to what they want be it quality or price, sometimes you can get both sometimes not.

[D4D]

...labour costs are expensive in Australia, we want bigger wages, we will pay higher prices!

and Joolia's carbon tax isn't even here...

[BigJules]

I have been looking for a CT for 6 to 12 mths and now I have the cash I am getting totally confused as what to buy and what to stay away from??? I have checked out many on Ebay which all look really good come with everything that some of the "Aussie made" offer for roughly double the price. Now I would rather spend a few extra bucks and buy local made but the minister for finances doesn't see it that way. She looks at price first and has no concept for quality and if something needs fixing down the track then so b it........

Considering their aren't too many manufactured about in Tassie I am now looking at getting a locally built trailer and then source the best tent to fit the budget then add any mods down the track. I am no mechanic and cosmetically the Ebay CT's look good and you can see why many buy them for a once or twice a year camper.

We all know the reasons behind chinese vs aussie prices but I guess it's up to the individual as to what they want be it quality or price, sometimes you can get both sometimes not.

With no comment about a specific unit, if you cannot inspect it, or find a bunch of people who'll vouch for it's quality and design, don't touch it. This is where the Aussie brands are superior.

[Johnny Trackabout]

I too have just recently joined this association and am proud to be a member. To be a member we get audited by the association to make sure that we do make our tents and trailers and if not need to prove by way of invoices that our products are made here. We also have to provide engineers drawings on our campers to make sure they comply to ADR regs etc.
I think this association is a good thing and manufacturers who miss lead the public will pay the price by the ACCC etc. Its hard for perspective buyers to make the right decision these days when purchasing a Camper Trailer as so many companies have gone off shore with trailer and tent components and quite frequently miss lead you guys when buying a camper. And a lot of companies are sending Dynaproffed Aussie made canvas overseas and getting the chinese to sew them up. We did the exercise 2 years ago and had sample tents sent over. After 3 or 4 attempts to get it right, I can say the over all quality of workmanship was pretty good. At the time when I did the math on what we were selling the savings equated to around $500000 per year (yep half a million) on our sales at the time. I decided against the off shore gear as consistency is a major issue, but the thing that stuck in my mind was "if everyone did the same....just how many people are going to loose there job"! Till today we put product over profit and some of you here might think we make a squilion $$$ but can say "NO" not the case. I rely on our good name, low profit margins with a quantity turnover to make a living. While you guys support us, we'll keep the doors open and hopefully keep making a product for all of you guys to enjoy.

Here's the can of worms !!
Chinese tents 20' container load $550 per unit delivered to our door....our zips, binding, velcroe, d-rings and eyelits cost around $450 per tent...so what are you really getting for your $$$ ?
Mass produced trailers quantity buy aussie made (done this exercise) $1700 to $2000...look ok made of black steel, furniture grade RHS and SHS steel, slipper springs, ball coupling, jerry can holder and gas ring, single pressed body kit (cheaper for no pressed ribs), chinese axles, hubs etc.

So what we end up with is a well presented package for around $2250 to $2550....sell price $3890 to $4500 (seen companies asking for $6000).......so who's really making the profits here. If I could get these margins, I would be farting $100 notes and would be too lazy to bend over and pick up $10000 if I dropped it on the ground!!

Here is another example, we sell heaps of our tents to you guys for home built trailers etc. On our 10' tent conversion which sells for $4900 complete including installation, we are flat out make $900 on it...so do the math on our margins versus the import tents...buy price $550....sell price $1700 to $3000.

So if you wanna keep yourselves employed and make sure your kids have a job one day...buy Aussie made and there's and our futures will be secure !! We can all buy off shore at a bargain price, put the effort in to fix it up the way it should have been made etc, but is this really the way you want your new camper to be and put the math into your time and the products you buy to fix it the way it should have been done in the 1st place.

When I was doing the Penrith show the other week, I went out for dinner with Kerry and Philis from Modcon Campers, they are great people who make a great product and can say good friends of mine. I said to Kerry and Phillis "the way our industry is going, if we don't jump on the band wagon and start using chinese tents or getting them made overseas, we'll probably be out on the streets in the next 3 years" After further discussion we concluded that we'll keep making our products, keep Australians employed and while we have a choice thats the way its gunna be !! We are 2 genuine companies who do what we say we do, we have both felt the squeeze over the last 3 to 4 years reduced sales from chinese products etc. BUT one thing no one can take away from us is our good names, our quality products and the level of customer service our clients expect. I know I am having a whine, but the up side is we have plenty of work on the board, am putting on more staff to cope with demand and all I can say is AUSSIE, AUSSIE AUSSIE...OI, OI, OI

Cheers
JT

P.S If you have bought a Aussie made camper and your Torneau has delaminted, your tent leaks (has it been built right) fabric has faded inside of 12 months.....all I can say "is it really made here" hence why this association will in time sort the weeds from the flowers

[graham]

JT- Danbri spot on the money &god luv ya   cheers Graham

[Big Nath]

JT, i have a imported CT, Yep Black Steel, Yep Chinese Axle, etc etc.

Where are toyotas/nissans/jeeps made? last time i checked they were not made in Aus or even from Aussie steel...............

Actually 90% of our iron ore is sent to china to build things to export, so realy we are supporting the Aussie market.

Cheers

[gibbo301]

Aussie made

[Johnny Trackabout]

JT, i have a imported CT, Yep Black Steel, Yep Chinese Axle, etc etc.

Where are toyotas/nissans/jeeps made? last time i checked they were not made in Aus or even from Aussie steel...............

Actually 90% of our iron ore is sent to china to build things to export, so realy we are supporting the Aussie market.

Cheers

You know what you are right !! They all went off shore and put profits over product. Lets do vegimite, dunlop, stubbies etc all off shore and all were good aussie products. Sometimes we don't have a say, but on camper trailers we do and the guys that sell these to you guys are driving Ferrari's and Lamborgini's.
We are expanding our canvas operation just to cope with the fix ups we do on imported tents. Everyone deserves the right to go camping, but many of these "cheap imports" are costing about the same price as an aussie made camper by the time they pay someone like me to fix it up !!!
I am not bagging people for buying these products as they are made to a price and everyone deserves to go camping. All I am saying it $h!ts me when people are getting mislead on there purchase and I am in the industry and get to see the "good" the "bad" and the "ugly" when it comes to "unscrupulous salesman" and "pretend manufacturers" etc.
I drive a Toyota and I know its made overseas, but I don't have a choice on buying an aussie made fourby similar in price and similar in $$$ value, quality etc....so the "buck stops here" and just remember "you really do get what you pay for" and while aussies have a choice, support us because if you don't one day we'll become the same as the car and other industries

Cheers
JT

P.S Yes we do send our Iron Ore overseas and they send it back at about 500% profit margin attached And on the steel subject, yep you guessed its all Australian made sheet and RHS we use....its tempting to buy import "massive savings" but one day my kids might want a job at there factory. so really want to make sure they have a job to go too

[Big Nath]

Your right JT, its not a go at you mate. i think the aussie indusrty is running scared from these imports.

we know there is a problem with our nation not just the CT industry wen we can import cheaper than we can produce in our own country.

As far as stell its bullShit. our ore, we export then we buy it back cheaper than we can get from bluescope.

Yep you do get what you pay for however an extra 10K for less ct is a bit hard to swallow!

Cheers

[Prado BB]

JT, i take my hat off to you.

I understand your argument regarding misleading and deceptive conduct and rightfully, this needs to be stamped out.

The other side is about choice.  Taking the misleading and deceptive conduct out of the equation, Australia and Australians have more choice than ever before.  Globalisation and a free market economy creates competition (fairly or unfairly) and some consumers will look at price only, others will consider quality only and some value for money.  It is anyones guess where it all ends!!

It's unfortunate that this means certain industries will collapse but new industries are born.  The question is, what are these new industries and how long will it be before these new industries are copied or taken offshore?

JT and Modcon (and the like) stick it out for as long as you can - you are an inspiration.

 

 

[D4D]

Vote 1 JT for PM

[Brett B]

These Importers will come and go along with all the crap that they put on shelves
but a good product will evolve and change and last for ever
you be ok Johny and they other decent builders out there
Brett

[Brutus]

This country was built and founded on guys like JT, it's just a shame the international market is pushing the aussie made out the door in the search for the bargain. Dollars are tight now and will get even tighter in the future as the cost of living in aus goes through the roof and this will bring the importers like those Chinese CT's into the market even further. The challenge for the industry regulators is to ensure that their is some consistency in either the product we buy or that we are well aware that we are buying an imported product not aussie made. Many of the Ebay deals quote themselves as aussie made but they just don't define what percentage. For all we know it just the wheel nuts.

Just because a product is mass manufactured in china or similar it doesn't mean it's necessarily inferior though. I was a bit of a golf nut a few years back and I recall a story where the Chinese were manufacturing a clone of $1,000 golf clubs and selling them for $250. They used one of those robot hitting machines and the dispersion rate at 275m was so marginal between the original and the clone that 99% of pro golfers would likely not tell any difference.

I guess at the end of the day it's up to each individual if they want (or can afford) to support the local manufacturers or buy imported products and spend the left overs elsewhere? We as retailers just need to have some clarity into what we are actually buying.