Patriot Campers - Gas fitting recall

[Bytemrk]

Not sure if this is the right place to post it, but I saw this today and figured it might be of interest to some here:

There's a recall on some Patriot campers built between 2013 and 2017.  Apparently the stove was not installed by an authorised gas fitter.

https://www.productsafety.gov.au/recall/patriot-campers-pty-ltd-camper-trailers

[weeds]

I don’t quite understand the notice.

It says not installed by a qualified person

Than it says take it to a gas fitter authorized by patriot for the cooker to be de-commissioned.

Would the gas fitter inspect the installation, pressure and leak test than issue a certificate??


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[macca]

Not sure but i think you will find it is because the stove doesnt have a flame failure cutout on it. I am not familiar with the Bromic stove but i have just had the gas cert done on my trailer i am building and they wouldnt hook up my Lido junior for that reason, so now i am off to buy a Smev

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[weeds]

Not sure but i think you will find it is because the stove doesnt have a flame failure cutout on it. I am not familiar with the Bromic stove but i have just had the gas cert done on my trailer i am building and they wouldnt hook up my Lido junior for that reason, so now i am off to buy a Smev

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Dunno...just pointing out the poorly worded recall.


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[corndog]

Could be that it has been installed by Joe Blow during manufacturing then signed off by a gas fitter later. Don't know if it's legal but this is what happens.

[rags]

I am unfamiliar with this recall but in a previous role I was involved with gas regulation.
I suspect that they have been pulled up for an issue that has been troubling the industry for a while.
Manufacturers will install a stove in a slide out drawer but not hook it up , some will do the same but go a step further and provide a gas regulator and bayonet type fitting. But again not physically hook it up. Manufacturers will argue that they have not completed an installation and so not required to comply.Problem is that in both instances both set up constitutes a gas installation and requires a gasfitter to complete.
The first example as the cooktop stove is installed would be required to meet certain clearance requirements and so is the responsibility of a gasfitter. The 2nd example  has the same issue and also further technical features including placement of bottles, regulator and bayonet.
The stove itself maybe called into question but a bromic would be AGA approved.
I am interested to know who instigated the recall action, usually a state based gas regulator will request ACCC to commence the recall.

[Cruiser 105Tvan]

Me to Rags, because how a slide out kitchen complies would cause trouble for a few different camper trailers.

[Rumpig]

I found out tonight the issue of the recall revolves around the stove being a fixed item in the camper and under new regs this needs to be a full cert job...the recall is to simply drill out the 4 riverts that hold the stove in place making no longer a fixed item, then supply a strap that ties the stove down whilst in transit.

Me to Rags, because how a slide out kitchen complies would cause trouble for a few different camper trailers.

This was part of the discussion I had tonight also, Lifestyle was another name that came up as a possible future issue, but my Kimberley likely is the same aswell...guess it depends how retrospective the new law goes back to.

[Cruiser 105Tvan]

Being a Tvan owner, I have a personal interest in this discussion.

[rags]

I found out tonight the issue of the recall revolves around the stove being a fixed item in the camper and under new regs this needs to be a full cert job...the recall is to simply drill out the 4 riverts that hold the stove in place making no longer a fixed item, then supply a strap that ties the stove down whilst in transit. This was part of the discussion I had tonight also, Lifestyle was another name that came up as a possible future issue, but my Kimberley likely is the same aswell...guess it depends how retrospective the new law goes back to.

Your on the money Rumpig and it is what I suggested in my post above.
It is interesting that this action has been taken. The requirement isn't new and it has been a requirement for a fixed appliance to be installed by a gas-fitter. I would argue that it equally applied when older editions of the AS 5601 where called up rather than the current edition.
The issue I see is that most cooktops are certified under a AGA certification process and there are a few different certification levels. A BBQ or camp stove are certified differently due to its portable nature to an appliance intended to be installed which may include an RV appliance or domestic appliance.
A dislike of mine is that some manufactures insist on installing a gas hot plate that has 4 burners that looks like it should be in a Bunnings flat pack kitchen. The gas regs are unclear on the compliance of these cooktops when installed in a camper. The swift or smeg type appliances are more suitable due to having fixed burners etc.
By removing some fixing clips or screws and replacing these with a tie down strap as suggested would not solve the issue and would result in an installation now being defective as the nature of a fixed appliance is just that. At the end of the day it is an appliance that is installed and so requires installation by a gasfitter. If as Patriot are suggesting, that you take it to a gasfitter and he removes the fixing, then in both Qld and NSW he would also need to issue a defect notice to the gas regulator.

[Rumpig]

Your on the money Rumpig and it is what I suggested in my post above.
It is interesting that this action has been taken. The requirement isn't new and it has been a requirement for a fixed appliance to be installed by a gas-fitter. I would argue that it equally applied when older editions of the AS 5601 where called up rather than the current edition.
The issue I see is that most cooktops are certified under a AGA certification process and there are a few different certification levels. A BBQ or camp stove are certified differently due to its portable nature to an appliance intended to be installed which may include an RV appliance or domestic appliance.
A dislike of mine is that some manufactures insist on installing a gas hot plate that has 4 burners that looks like it should be in a Bunnings flat pack kitchen. The gas regs are unclear on the compliance of these cooktops when installed in a camper. The swift or smeg type appliances are more suitable due to having fixed burners etc.
By removing some fixing clips or screws and replacing these with a tie down strap as suggested would not solve the issue and would result in an installation now being defective as the nature of a fixed appliance is just that. At the end of the day it is an appliance that is installed and so requires installation by a gasfitter. If as Patriot are suggesting, that you take it to a gasfitter and he removes the fixing, then in both Qld and NSW he would also need to issue a defect notice to the gas regulator.

from what I was told Patriot had 3 certifiers trying to come up with a solution for quite a while now (they knew this was coming), and this is where it ended with them, just make the stove no longer a fixed item...no idea how legal the strap really is, but a mate was talking to Justin (owner of Patriot) and that's what he was told by him they are doing as the fix.

[#jonesy]

I wouldn't call it a "fix". Just an underhanded way of complying.
If they worked to the standard rather than circumventing it then it would be a fix.

[corndog]

Would it not be better to look at the regs relating to this issue and amending them. Can you really call it a fixed item as it is moveable running on drawer slides?  Never seen a cooktop like this in any house I have been in. This should be covered under caravans or portable dwellings and allowances made. I'm not a gas fitter and don't know the regs but lets be sensible about it. Take the screws out and strap it down for a fix, really.

[Rumpig]

The whole thing sounds rediculous the me...how is a set up like Patriot that much different to a home BBQ? You have a gas bottle with a flexible hose running to an appliance bolted to a frame system of something. Next thing we'll need is someone licenced to change our home BBQ gas bottles over for us. I guess there is an argument to be made about the campers bouncing around where as home BBQ's don't do that, but even a fully licenced install job can run into issues in those types of conditions.

[Cruiser 105Tvan]

When checking on the stove in my Tvan, a while back, I was told by the Manufacturer that it's a BBQ top.
While it's a BBQ top, it's required to be a lesser BTU output than a Stove in a House.
As well as have a thermocouple to turn the gas off, if the flame dies.
I was asking about the stove taking a long time to boil water.

[Hoyks]

I was asking about the stove taking a long time to boil water.

Thats an easy fix; Pull the jet out and put in one with a bigger hole in it. I bought a 2nd hand BBQ that was positively pathetic (probably why I got an almost new BBQ for $40), pulled the 0.8mm jets and ran a 1mm drill through them. Much better

[corndog]

Increasing the gas through the jet might give you more heat for cooking but it could also make things worse safety wise. The extra heat might radiate out producing a fire hazard. I have heard of this happening.

[D4D]

More info here https://www.facebook.com/patriotcampers/videos/1584767194946229

[weeds]

More info here https://www.facebook.com/patriotcampers/videos/1584767194946229

That’s clears it up...........

Didn’t realise quick disconnects are illegal in qld....I assume bayonet fittings would still be OK


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[Fizzie]

Didn’t realise quick disconnects are illegal in qld....

Which raises more questions

He said they're manufactured in Qld so have to meet Qld reg's which say you can't have quick-connect gas fittings, but that's the only state that says so.

The Joolca Hottap units now come with quick-connect gas fittings, but they're made in Vic. Would they then be OK to use in Qld, or not

[SEADOO]

I have a Lifestyle Elite with a built in Smev cook top with a quick disconnect connection too. When we purchased it, we were informed it doesn't require a certified gas certificate because it's not a perminate connection.

Does this apply to me now?

[Rumpig]

I have a Lifestyle Elite with a built in Smev cook top with a quick disconnect connection too. When we purchased it, we were informed it doesn't require a certified gas certificate because it's not a perminate connection.

Does this apply to me now?

possibly in the future it might...will depend who the gas people go after next and how far back they go in retrospect for this new law. Until then you should be ok though.

[Spada]

Didn’t realise quick disconnects are illegal in qld....

curious............I have a 2010 model camper that I purchased 2nd hand in 2012 (manufactured in Qld, still registered in Qld). It has a quick connect fitting to a Smev stove that is hard mounted in a slide out kitchen, and I had no drama getting a gas cert then...............wonder how I would go now ?

I was under the impression that gas installations had to be bought up to the current reg's at the time of inspection, not what was current at the time of manufacture ?

[corndog]

As a camper is manufactured in Queensland you have to have this fix done to comply with their rules. After that fix you could have it redone in Victoria, certified and that would make it OK. Sounds like stupidity at its best to me.

[Sixtys Guy]

I'm not sure if the Patriot guy is confused or whether this is clever spin to take attention off the fact the gas installation is illegal and to maybe also have a dig at the DNRM.

Some points on the Patriot gas installation;
* The Australian Standard for Gas installations (AS5601) is exactly that - it applies to Australia, not just Queensland.
* It doesn't matter where the installation was made/designed. As above, it has to be compliant with the Australian Standard.
* Two hoses cannot be joined together (which is essentially what the Patriot installation was).
* As the cooker and the hose assembly were 'fixed' to the camper trailer then the installation must be compliant with AS5601. Change it so the installation is not fixed and it doesn't have to comply with AS5601.

Also;
* AS5601 does not apply to portable appliances.
* AS5601 definition of a portable appliance; "An appliance designed to be carried by the user from place to place, as required."
* AS5601 applies to 'fixed gas installations'. No definition is given.
* In a caravan gas installation (camper trailer is classed as a caravan) cookers must have flame failure. Portable cookers do not. Up until recently Bromic had two versions of this cooker - one with flame failure (for caravans) and one without flame failure (for camping and outdoor use). The cooker without flame failure has recently been discontinued.

To clear up some other points;
* Quick connect devices are not illegal (assuming the actual fitting is approved for gas installations). There are a number of conditions for use.
* Bayonet points are classed as a quick connect device
* Gas installations do not have to be brought up to current standards at the time of compliance (some Gas Fitters may apply the current standard to ensure that the installation is as safe/compliant as it can be).