Man killed while snatching out a mate - Yeppoon

[Bird]

No damper nothing. this is askin for trouble...
https://www.facebook.com/Utopialandscapingandpools/videos/1492744554117163/

[DrewXT]

###  Id be interested to know why you couldn't have/didn't test your products via:

(a)  a single sided, (one recovery point), pull?  I note from above that you say that was not done?;  (b) does that mean you only sell them in sets of 2 then; with a warning label not to use them singularly/untested for this?;  (c) did you do a "yank test" - NO, not attaching them to a Jeep  - but a real world test where Nobles applies an instant (say 6tn+) load on the RPs - at say the equivalent of 30km/h+ velocity.... to see what happens next?
####

(ps:   I'm not associated in any way with the 4wd aftermarket accessories industry, and am not an engineer) ..

To answer your above:

* We did a pull test per section, e.g. per side
* Yes, we only sell them in pairs, and we are very clear with our instructions, and selling that they are NOT intended to be used as a single pull point - of course, you can't prevent people doing stupid things - we have had requests to sell a single point, and we won't do that, as it's not in the best interest of the owner or the structural integrity of the vehicle.
* There's no such thing as a "yank test" when WLL rating a product - it's based on a constant increasing load being applied until the product fails.  That being said, these have been tested in the wild with a fully loaded vehicle and camper behind, being recovered via gentle pull (not snatched).

Without sounding condescending, snatching ('here we go, watch this, get up it and rip it' - style) is really the uneducated 4WD'ers way of recovering a vehicle that's stuck.  It's the YouTube method, and is one of the most attributed methods to causing death in the 4WD community   Between the two of us, we've been driving 4WD's for a collective 60+ years, and neither of us have ever recovered a vehicle that way. 

[Rumpig]

No damper nothing. this is askin for trouble...
https://www.facebook.com/Utopialandscapingandpools/videos/1492744554117163/

plenty of comments on there making out like he's a hero, yet nobody commenting on the lack of a simply addition that you mention that could make the recovery safer....even though his tow point and strap are likely being used way beyond their design scope.

[KingBilly]

plenty of comments on there making out like he's a hero, yet nobody commenting on the lack of a simply addition that you mention that could make the recovery safer....even though his tow point and strap are likely being used way beyond their design scope.

Plus he has done multiple heavy duty snatches with the same strap.  You can actually see it is losing its elasticity with each attempt.  After a couple of attempts, you need to change to another strap otherwise you have lost the benefit of using a snatch strap.

KB

[UIZ733]

I get the feeling this would not pass muster.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTNC41V4EB0

[BaseCamp]

Thanks for the info, DrewXT...

Sounds like you have a quality product on your hands there....    I'll look at getting a couple of pairs myself. .....   and I know what you mean about the "charge at it" type of recovery using a snatch strap, (as often seen on you tube)........   I have found personally - that a  "yank it out recovery" is unnecessary; (beach and track work) -  and fails Roothy's vehicle sympathy test ....

BaseCamp

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk

[NewieCamper]

plenty of comments on there making out like he's a hero, yet nobody commenting on the lack of a simply addition that you mention that could make the recovery safer....even though his tow point and strap are likely being used way beyond their design scope.

Didn't check the comments, but what do you reckon the strap is rated for? I've seen 8tonne and 12tonne available. What does the truck weigh? Probably 12 empty, and the barrel is going, so it's probably not empty.

[Rumpig]

Didn't check the comments, but what do you reckon the strap is rated for? I've seen 8tonne and 12tonne available. What does the truck weigh? Probably 12 empty, and the barrel is going, so it's probably not empty.

yeah with the aggi spinning i was also wondering how full it is, no need to spin if it was empty.

[Squalo]

But it begs the question are tow balls crap today? Any learned metal tradesman or engineer can tell you that if a ball is made of quality steel and given its 3/4" / 19mm at its wasted point it has the ability to take an enormous load? More than a hitch pin !

I look at the humble tow ball today and the cut thread as opposed to rolled thread and the sharp finish to the shank as opposed to a large radius (all stress raises) and think what a POS surprised we don't hear about towing issues with modern heavy vans.?

I am not for one minute advocating that anybody start using towballs for recovery btw

There is a big difference in the forces involved with static loading and shock loading, this is why towballs don't fail when towing, but shear when shock loaded.

[The punter]

Any learned metal tradesman or engineer can tell you that if a ball is made of quality steel and given its 3/4" / 19mm at its wasted point it has the ability to take an enormous load? More than a hitch pin !

I look at the humble tow ball today and the cut thread as opposed to rolled thread and the sharp finish to the shank as opposed to a large radius (all stress raises) and think what a POS surprised we don't hear about towing issues with modern heavy vans.?

I am not for one minute advocating that anybody start using towballs for recovery btw

Learned metal tradesman here, the issue is the fulcrum load under tension.

[achjimmy]

There is a big difference in the forces involved with static loading and shock loading, this is why towballs don't fail when towing, but shear when shock loaded.

Ofcourse it is different load, but do towballs not fail while towing? General towing would still not be a static load would it?

Learned metal tradesman here, the issue is the fulcrum load under tension.

but there is also often a fulcrum load on a recovery point too?

The last couple of towballs I've looked at are fudmentally wrong imo. They have no root radius they had cut threads (not rolled) terminating with a terrible sharp stress raiser sometimes chatter, And then we never use a flat washer under the spring washer that would enable the correct torque to be properly applied and allow the thread to stretch?

Just saying I think towballs them selves are flawed? They work for the average application because they are over stressed for that purpose. A few 5/16" HT bolts hold the wings on planes capable of aerobatics so a 19mm lump of steel can take a 3.5t load even relatively mildly applied.

If they were of quality steel made to proper engineering standards and fastened to the hitch with a correct torque/stretch  they would be a darn site stronger and capable of acting as a hook or fulcrum point for far higher loads Imo :-)

Basically the humble towballs are Shit and more so today cause any Chinese Manufacturer seem to stamp them and sell them through any number of sources

[prodigyrf]

There is a big difference in the forces involved with static loading and shock loading, this is why towballs don't fail when towing, but shear when shock loaded.

Well the breaking strain is the breaking strain whether it's applied statically or dynamically ie by simply loading up a suspended weight to that limit or applied by a snatch strap. The real problem lies in a 3.5T towball apparently not having much swl above that and then you have 8T and 10T rated snatch straps that can easily overload it. Then you might say aha but wouldn't a heavy trailer act like a snatch strap momentum wise sometimes and exceed that? Mostly not because you have rolling wheels and our tugs just don't have the torque to achieve that except with a runup as in snatching. It's why autos are often rated higher for towing than manuals and there's a pretty good discussion about all the considerations here- http://www.4wdaction.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=137657

[prodigyrf]

What we should all get out of that is you want the snatch strap to break before anything else and select one or more of the same to carry accordingly   

[Wunderlust]

Ofcourse it is different load, but do towballs not fail while towing? General towing would still not be a static load would it?

 but there is also often a fulcrum load on a recovery point too?

The last couple of towballs I've looked at are fudmentally wrong imo. They have no root radius they had cut threads (not rolled) terminating with a terrible sharp stress raiser sometimes chatter, And then we never use a flat washer under the spring washer that would enable the correct torque to be properly applied and allow the thread to stretch?

Just saying I think towballs them selves are flawed? They work for the average application because they are over stressed for that purpose. A few 5/16" HT bolts hold the wings on planes capable of aerobatics so a 19mm lump of steel can take a 3.5t load even relatively mildly applied.

If they were of quality steel made to proper engineering standards and fastened to the hitch with a correct torque/stretch  they would be a darn site stronger and capable of acting as a hook or fulcrum point for far higher loads Imo :-)

Basically the humble towballs are Shit and more so today cause any Chinese Manufacturer seem to stamp them and sell them through any number of sources

A 3.5tomne towball does not mean it has the capacity for 3.5te. Tow balls are there primarily to support the towball weights plus the forces associated with pulling your trailer (and breaking), not hanging a 3.5te off it.

[tryagain]

F=MA
or force equals mass multiplied by acceleration, with a snatch strap assuming the vehicle is 3000kg travelling at 15km/h and the force of the strap is taken up over .25second A=16.667m/s^2 so the force is 3000kgx16.667m/s^2= 50000N or 5102kg

In a normal towing situation, you don't have the difference in acceleration so it is just the weight you take into consideration.

[Chris.]

ahh the wonders of the interweb....

[GUEY]

It's worth noting that factory tow points and factory tie down points are completely different things. Some tow points (such as the ones on my MQ Triton) are suitable for recoveries. Tie down points certainly are not.

I'm only a cabinetmaker ( so at least one step up from a chippie...  ) but if they are the same style as the front of my Colorado, that is a bit of steel bent into a u shape and welded to the chassis, they don't fill me with a whole lot of confidence.

In saying that, as Rumpig posted in his video, the force that would be required to break them shouldn't be needed to extract  the vehicle anyway if the right prep work is done before snatching.

Don't know if the link has been posted, but for anyone that has flakebook, checkout "I got bogged at inskip point".
While I do have a chuckle, I am constantly amazed that Darwin doesn't have more entries to his awards every year...

[Merts]

I'm only a cabinetmaker ( so at least one step up from a chippie...  ) but if they are the same style as the front of my Colorado, that is a bit of steel bent into a u shape and welded to the chassis, they don't fill me with a whole lot of confidence.

In saying that, as Rumpig posted in his video, the force that would be required to break them shouldn't be needed to extract  the vehicle anyway if the right prep work is done before snatching.

Don't know if the link has been posted, but for anyone that has flakebook, checkout "I got bogged at inskip point".
While I do have a chuckle, I am constantly amazed that Darwin doesn't have more entries to his awards every year...

Can't comment on the Colorado points as I've not looked at them, but that's why I said 'some' factory tow points are suitable.
People need to be thoughtful and careful regarding what they decide to use (and how they use them) for recoveries.
My view on snatch recoveries is that they should be a last resort, and they should be done as gently as possible to reduce the risk of breaking something, regardless of whether you are using factory points or rated aftermarket ones.

[Rumpig]

People need to be thoughtful and careful regarding what they decide to use (and how they use them) for recoveries.
My view on snatch recoveries is that they should be a last resort, and they should be done as gently as possible to reduce the risk of breaking something, regardless of whether you are using factory points or rated aftermarket ones.

gotta agree...even though i helped make that video, I'll grab a set of Maxtrax for a beach recovery long before I dig out the snatch strap.

[prodigyrf]

gotta agree...even though i helped make that video, I'll grab a set of Maxtrax for a beach recovery long before I dig out the snatch strap.

Yes it does make you wonder with many of those snatch vids why on earth they don't do some serious digging out in front of the wheels instead of trying to yank them out without any prep. You had to shake your head at the clowns who managed to pull the front end right out of that one buried in the mud.

[NewieCamper]

After reading this thread, and contemplating taking the truck onto the beach soon the recovery points have been ordered and should arrive today.

recjon I'll also be taking a digging device too, and probably some treated pine 'max trax' in case no one is around for assistance.