Man killed while snatching out a mate - Yeppoon

[rags]

Popcorn anyone?

[prodigyrf]

Then I looked back over all the years I have owned a 4B.
Which is since I was about 19 or 20.

We all learn. Someone had to tell us.

Listen, learn...tow points! Who needs rated tow points? All you need is lots of input and enthusiasm at that age- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJA3J--g_yI
plus plenty of beer to lubricate proceedings naturally 

You probably have to get a missus, kids and a mortgage to do the wiser old fart homework scene-  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oT6R6yTg6R0
although the close shaves and dramas as a young bloke sorts out the gene pool     



 

[Cruiser 105Tvan]

Pat in the hat seems to have jumped on the band wagon now too.

[Merts]

Whether a tow point has a rating stamped on it, or if it's bolted to the chassis (or welded to it) doesn't determine whether its structurally suitable for a snatch recovery. I'm extremely confident my snatch strap will fail well before the tow points do.

[prodigyrf]

A worthwhile reminder thread with some of those links and I realized the lad with his Triton and his tradey mates wouldn't know much about it so passed them on for his info as he surfs over the West Coast and might be offered a snatch at some stage. Once you're looking up a few vid links some of the others can certainly distract you on YouTube with their titles but there's definitely a few salutary ones there to drive home the overall message. 

[oldmate]

Whether a tow point has a rating stamped on it, or if it's bolted to the chassis (or welded to it) doesn't determine whether its structurally suitable for a snatch recovery. I'm extremely confident my snatch strap will fail well before the tow points do.

How do you know what it's rated for?  Big difference between something being bolted and welded. Bit clearly you are one of the blokes I  mentioned earlier.
Hope you are right.  I wouldnt recover you. 

Call me an asshole but the safety and lives of others and myself is more than saving your car from the drink. 


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[Pete79]

Can anyone point to any vehicles with factory fitted "rated" recovery points?

All this stamped 'rated' stuff means absolutely zero.
You can buy a hook with a number stamped on it and bolt it to any chassis with M12 high tensile bolts and it means nothing as far as ratings go.

As a boilermaker I can grab a 50 ton lifting lug and weld to to a steel plate with a 3 run fillet weld and stamp it with my numbers, but it means nothing if that plate is 1.5mm thick and only tack welded to the rest of the load.

As far as I know there are no 'rated' recovery points fitted on any vehicles, plenty of meaningless numbers stamped on things though....

[Merts]

How do you know what it's rated for?  Big difference between something being bolted and welded. Bit clearly you are one of the blokes I  mentioned earlier.
Hope you are right.  I wouldnt recover you. 

Call me an asshole but the safety and lives of others and myself is more than saving your car from the drink.

 I'm a civil engineer as a matter of fact, so I may have more knowledge on the strength of steel components and fastening systems than you assume I do.

My point was that a recovery/tow point does not have to be bolted on, or to have been destruction tested in order to be suitable for using in a snatch recovery. You are correct that welding and bolting are different, but your apparent belief that one is superior to the other is simply wrong. Both methods are used in construction and either can provide the required strength.

I agree which your point, that in the absence of testing, I can't be sure of the exact failure capacity of the factory tow points. What I have done however is measured those points and compared them to after market rated points. I'm confident, particularly if an equalising bridle is used, they are adequate for a snatch recovery. I would always use a dampener (or two) on the strap btw.

Also, what Pete just said....

[Chris.]

I have an NX Pajero which has 2 OEM recovery points (not tie down points) at the front. I don't recall seeing them stamped with any numbers. I use a bridle strap between them both when snatching.

Here's a MMAL video of them testing the snatching from the OEM recovery points: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPXixsvjDjY&index=2&list=WL

[rags]

Can anyone point to any vehicles with factory fitted "rated" recovery points?

All this stamped 'rated' stuff means absolutely zero.

And just because a snatch strap comes in packaging that claims to be rated to xxx kg and xxx technical standard can mean nothing. Manufacturers can and will copy anything to claim that the product is safe with little quarantine over those claims. In fact it was not long ago that 2 of Australia's largest three letter named companies were forced into a product recall.
In a previous job I witnessed camper trailer importers having hitches fitted that were in fact fraudulent copies, proporting to be brand x, but in fact untested copies.

I have fitted to my ARB bullbar some recovery points that are bolted to existing captured threaded nuts which must be engineered because Toyota kindly provided them. The fitted recovery points are bright yellow so I assume that they are safe!! and that a kind fellow 4wheeller will help pull me out using my unknown to them rated snatch strap!!
I think the key to any recovery is safety by fitting a least 1 but preferably 2 dampeners on recovery rope/straps.

[KingBilly]

ALWAYS use a dampener at each end of a snatch strap.  About one metre from each end.  It's the metal shackle or the tow point coming loose which is going to cause the damage and there is at least one of these on each end.

KB

[oldmate]

I'm a civil engineer as a matter of fact, so I may have more knowledge on the strength of steel components and fastening systems than you assume I do.

My point was that a recovery/tow point does not have to be bolted on, or to have been destruction tested in order to be suitable for using in a snatch recovery. You are correct that welding and bolting are different, but your apparent belief that one is superior to the other is simply wrong. Both methods are used in construction and either can provide the required strength.

I agree which your point, that in the absence of testing, I can't be sure of the exact failure capacity of the factory tow points. What I have done however is measured those points and compared them to after market rated points. I'm confident, particularly if an equalising bridle is used, they are adequate for a snatch recovery. I would always use a dampener (or two) on the strap btw.

Also, what Pete just said....

Yep.  Cool.  Engineer.   I'll stop now. 


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[achjimmy]

Can anyone point to any vehicles with factory fitted "rated" recovery points?

All this stamped 'rated' stuff means absolutely zero.
You can buy a hook with a number stamped on it and bolt it to any chassis with M12 high tensile bolts and it means nothing as far as ratings go.
Y
As a boilermaker I can grab a 50 ton lifting lug and weld to to a steel plate with a 3 run fillet weld and stamp it with my numbers, but it means nothing if that plate is 1.5mm thick and only tack welded to the rest of the load.

As far as I know there are no 'rated' recovery points fitted on any vehicles, plenty of meaningless numbers stamped on things though....

I'm a civil engineer as a matter of fact, so I may have more knowledge on the strength of steel components and fastening systems than you assume I do.

My point was that a recovery/tow point does not have to be bolted on, or to have been destruction tested in order to be suitable for using in a snatch recovery. You are correct that welding and bolting are different, but your apparent belief that one is superior to the other is simply wrong. Both methods are used in construction and either can provide the required strength.

I agree which your point, that in the absence of testing, I can't be sure of the exact failure capacity of the factory tow points. What I have done however is measured those points and compared them to after market rated points. I'm confident, particularly if an equalising bridle is used, they are adequate for a snatch recovery. I would always use a dampener (or two) on the strap btw.

Also, what Pete just said....

Yep both excellent posts.

Having come from avaiation engineering. Iam always amused at the "rated " aftermarket recovery points offered. Rated by who? Shackles yep purchased from a reliable source and straps again from a respected source but the rest is just a lottery imo.

[achjimmy]

Then I looked back over all the years I have owned a 4B.
Which is since I was about 19 or 20.
Up to about 15 Years ago I was recovering off the tow ball. Didn't know any better. 

Think we have all been here at some time. Personally I have always held a aversion to snatching. I just always hated the concept, gentle tow or winch has been my perffered option but I understand why it works.

But it begs the question are tow balls crap today? Any learned metal tradesman or engineer can tell you that if a ball is made of quality steel and given its 3/4" / 19mm at its wasted point it has the ability to take an enormous load? More than a hitch pin !

I look at the humble tow ball today and the cut thread as opposed to rolled thread and the sharp finish to the shank as opposed to a large radius (all stress raises) and think what a POS surprised we don't hear about towing issues with modern heavy vans.?

I am not for one minute advocating that anybody start using towballs for recovery btw

[Merts]

Yep.  Cool.  Engineer.   I'll stop now. 

Good. I think we'd all appreciate that. 

[DrewXT]

We recently released a set of recovery points to the market, and we had them tested at Nobles on their test sled, with each recovery point bolted to the same section of chassis they would be installed on when sold to the customer.

They were pulled until the point where we wanted them to be WLL rated, and to total destruction.  At total destruction, they were still attached to the chassis rail.

Total destruction for one side was over 20 tonne, the other was over 18.  We have rated (in a pair) to 6,000kg WLL, based on engineering assessment of the design, materials used, and method of assembly (jig assembly and welding) and attachment to the vehicle.

What our design, engineering assessment and testing can never take into account is if they are used for single side pull, shackles that are not WLL rated, or the nut doing the tow part of the recovery, even though we have a 3x safety factor.

It's worth noting that most "recovery points" are bench tested whilst bolted to a solid mass of steel, so in our opinion this would not have been a valid test, as everyone bolts a recovery point to a chassis!!

We are confident we've done everything in our power to release a product to the market that is safe, and have spent 18 months of design and testing extensively them on our own vehicles as well as bench/sled testing prior to releasing them.

We do not drill any new holes in the chassis, we use crush tubes where required and existing manufacturer holes, and use 15 bolts between the two sides of the vehicle.  Captive nuts provided by the manufacturer are prone to failure.



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[KingBilly]

We recently released a set of recovery points to the market, and we had them tested at Nobles on their test sled, with each recovery point bolted to the same section of chassis they would be installed on when sold to the customer.

They were pulled until the point where we wanted them to be WLL rated, and to total destruction.  At total destruction, they were still attached to the chassis rail.

Total destruction for one side was over 20 tonne, the other was over 18.  We have rated (in a pair) to 6,000kg WLL, based on engineering assessment of the design, materials used, and method of assembly (jig assembly and welding) and attachment to the vehicle.

What our design, engineering assessment and testing can never take into account is if they are used for single side pull, shackles that are not WLL rated, or the nut doing the tow part of the recovery, even though we have a 3x safety factor.

It's worth noting that most "recovery points" are bench tested whilst bolted to a solid mass of steel, so in our opinion this would not have been a valid test, as everyone bolts a recovery point to a chassis!!

We are confident we've done everything in our power to release a product to the market that is safe, and have spent 18 months of design and testing extensively them on our own vehicles as well as bench/sled testing prior to releasing them.

We do not drill any new holes in the chassis, we use crush tubes where required and existing manufacturer holes, and use 15 bolts between the two sides of the vehicle.  Captive nuts provided by the manufacturer are prone to failure.

And your company is?

KB

[KingBilly]

Yep.  Cool.  Engineer.   I'll stop now.

Haha, civil engineer gazumps chippie.  Don't stop now, love to read some more  need a good Sunday laugh.

KB

[oldmate]

We recently released a set of recovery points to the market, and we had them tested at Nobles on their test sled, with each recovery point bolted to the same section of chassis they would be installed on when sold to the customer.

They were pulled until the point where we wanted them to be WLL rated, and to total destruction.  At total destruction, they were still attached to the chassis rail.

Total destruction for one side was over 20 tonne, the other was over 18.  We have rated (in a pair) to 6,000kg WLL, based on engineering assessment of the design, materials used, and method of assembly (jig assembly and welding) and attachment to the vehicle.

What our design, engineering assessment and testing can never take into account is if they are used for single side pull, shackles that are not WLL rated, or the nut doing the tow part of the recovery, even though we have a 3x safety factor.

It's worth noting that most "recovery points" are bench tested whilst bolted to a solid mass of steel, so in our opinion this would not have been a valid test, as everyone bolts a recovery point to a chassis!!

We are confident we've done everything in our power to release a product to the market that is safe, and have spent 18 months of design and testing extensively them on our own vehicles as well as bench/sled testing prior to releasing them.

We do not drill any new holes in the chassis, we use crush tubes where required and existing manufacturer holes, and use 15 bolts between the two sides of the vehicle.  Captive nuts provided by the manufacturer are prone to failure.



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According to this thread.  You've wasted your time and money.  Clearly consulted the wrong engineer


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[DrewXT]

And your company is?

KB

Net4x4 - we started off specialising in design and manufacture of accessories for the Amarok with local materials and trades. 

We have co-designed Australia specific Bilstein and H&R suspension for the vehicle with both factories in Germany, and have supply arrangements with most of the big accessory manufacturers, and can fit (in Melbourne) or arrange fitting of any accessory to pretty much any vehicle.

Every product we make or sell has to be good enough to go on our own vehicles or we won't sell it to you.

It's a small business, with my mate being the owner, and our focus being 100% satisfaction from our customer.

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[KingBilly]

Net4x4 - we started off specialising in design and manufacture of accessories for the Amarok with local materials and trades. 

We have co-designed Australia specific Bilstein and H&R suspension for the vehicle with both factories in Germany, and have supply arrangements with most of the big accessory manufacturers, and can fit (in Melbourne) or arrange fitting of any accessory to pretty much any vehicle.

Every product we make or sell has to be good enough to go on our own vehicles or we won't sell it to you.

It's a small business, with my mate being the owner, and our focus being 100% satisfaction from our customer.

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That is great to hear.  Love it when I read about an innovative Aussie company.  Wish you and your mate every success.

KB

[DrewXT]

That is great to hear.  Love it when I read about an innovative Aussie company.  Wish you and your mate every success.

KB

Thanks mate - we both enjoy it, and have had customers come from as far as Townsville and Perth for us to work on their cars, and we're exporting our products so we think we're doing something right!

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[achjimmy]

We recently released a set of recovery points to the market, and we had them tested at Nobles on their test sled, with each recovery point bolted to the same section of chassis they would be installed on when sold to the customer.

They were pulled until the point where we wanted them to be WLL rated, and to total destruction.  At total destruction, they were still attached to the chassis rail.

Total destruction for one side was over 20 tonne, the other was over 18.  We have rated (in a pair) to 6,000kg WLL, based on engineering assessment of the design, materials used, and method of assembly (jig assembly and welding) and attachment to the vehicle.

What our design, engineering assessment and testing can never take into account is if they are used for single side pull, shackles that are not WLL rated, or the nut doing the tow part of the recovery, even though we have a 3x safety factor.

It's worth noting that most "recovery points" are bench tested whilst bolted to a solid mass of steel, so in our opinion this would not have been a valid test, as everyone bolts a recovery point to a chassis!!

We are confident we've done everything in our power to release a product to the market that is safe, and have spent 18 months of design and testing extensively them on our own vehicles as well as bench/sled testing prior to releasing them.

We do not drill any new holes in the chassis, we use crush tubes where required and existing manufacturer holes, and use 15 bolts between the two sides of the vehicle.  Captive nuts provided by the manufacturer are prone to failure.



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Brilliant mate well done.  It deserves to be shouted from the roof tops ..

[BaseCamp]

We recently released a set of recovery points to the market, and we had them tested at Nobles on their test sled, with each recovery point bolted to the same section of chassis they would be installed on when sold to the customer.

They were pulled until the point where we wanted them to be WLL rated, and to total destruction.  At total destruction, they were still attached to the chassis rail.

Total destruction for one side was over 20 tonne, the other was over 18.  We have rated (in a pair) to 6,000kg WLL, based on engineering assessment of the design, materials used, and method of assembly (jig assembly and welding) and attachment to the vehicle.

What our design, engineering assessment and testing can never take into account is if they are used for single side pull ....

###  Id be interested to know why you couldn't have/didn't test your products via:

(a)  a single sided, (one recovery point), pull?  I note from above that you say that was not done?;  (b) does that mean you only sell them in sets of 2 then; with a warning label not to use them singularly/untested for this?;  (c) did you do a "yank test" - NO, not attaching them to a Jeep - but a real world test where Nobles applies an instant (say 6tn+) load on the RPs - at say the equivalent of 30km/h+ velocity.... to see what happens next?
####

(ps:   I'm not associated in any way with the 4wd aftermarket accessories industry, and am not an engineer) ..


It's worth noting that most "recovery points" are bench tested whilst bolted to a solid mass of steel, so in our opinion this would not have been a valid test, as everyone bolts a recovery point to a chassis!!

We are confident we've done everything in our power to release a product to the market that is safe

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[MadMarv]

Years ago when i was in a four wheel drive club at the driver training one of the things we were shown was recovery technique's and how to setup for a wide variety off recovery's and one thing i do remember was always use a least one damper