Imported Campers

[Fizzie]

It's a funny world, yesterday I had a few spare minutes so I thought I'd make a few innocuous comments about imported campers I had looked over at the Maitland Show...
 At the end of the day I thought my observations may have been of interest, maybe next time I'll just keep my thoughts to myself.

Julian

I for one did think that your comments were worthwhile, & didn't think you were picking on anyone or being nasty 

Yes, there have been a number of discussions about it, but how many other times are there multiple threads about "the best CT for me", "Waeco v Engel" etc etc etc  (not to mention 6B&S!  )

I particularly liked your comment about the CT having a ball weight of "about 300 kg". From other threads I've been reading recently, that would make it pretty well illegal to tow behind any Oz vehicle smaller than a 5t truck, so I think it's worthwhile to get the comment out there for new buyers to be aware to ask about details like that.

 

Graeme

[BigJules]

The issue may well have been discussed many times before and yet...

The questions about are imported campers any good still get asked regularly. Folks still compare the imports favourably to locally manufactured product.

There are still so many folks out there with recent experiences of being let down by quality and then after sales service or a complete lack thereof. This topic is still hot and relevant.

And sure, you or a bloke you know has never had an issue, and you knew you'd have to fix it all before you did anything, but most buyers don't know that and so many are still reporting being burnt. 


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[tryagain]

There are ZERO good ideas being generated by the imports, they simply copy the R&D of local companies.

I think just about all camper companies copy the R&D of other companies. I am sure most companies didn't come up with the initial concept for a soft floor camper, a rear fold or a forward fold in isolation but yes the Chinese manufacturers have taken it to a new level, I think that this is because they are manufacturers,not actual camper companies.
I think you can view what's happened in many other industries as an insight into what we will continue to see in the industry, with camper companies increasingly outsourcing their manufacturing to China for their own specified designs and the build quality of imports continually improving.
In short, I wouldn't expect the actual manufacturers to do R&D that will always be the job of the local company that is specifying and ordering what they want.

[Bird]

I think just about all camper companies copy the R&D of other companies. I am sure most companies didn't come up with the initial concept for a soft floor camper, a rear fold or a forward fold in isolation but yes the Chinese manufacturers have taken it to a new level, I think that this is because they are manufacturers,not actual camper companies.
I think you can view what's happened in many other industries as an insight into what we will continue to see in the industry, with camper companies increasingly outsourcing their manufacturing to China for their own specified designs and the build quality of imports continually improving.
In short, I wouldn't expect the actual manufacturers to do R&D that will always be the job of the local company that is specifying and ordering what they want.

There is a certain company that buys units here and sends them to china to copy nearly bolt for bolt. They don't do any R & Anything.

[jw2170]

Amazing though, how many personal soap boxes appear, as soon as "Chinese", "Quality" and "camper trailer" are mentioned in the one post...

Also, slander and libel are basically the same matters, "the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation."

I asked a member on another forum if a post should be remove if it was false...He did not respond.  Funny that...

[Paddler Ed]

I noticed much the same after wandering around the same show.

The two campers that impressed me the most were the Mission and the Camel Campers - both sensible money for off road campers, and sensible weights (with sensible dimensions) and are Australian or (in the case of the Mission) South African influenced

With some of the other brands, do you really need a tent village that is about the same size as the US Pentagon building?

I do think that some good ideas are trickling through from the arrival of the Chinese campers - the small walk through at the end of the bed on the Camel was a particularly nice touch (less disturbance of SWMBO/less disturbance from SWMBO) and I think that has been influenced as a way of the Australian manufacturers differentiating themselves from the cheaper campers. In that respect, there is a benefit to them being on the market.

My original post was a classic case of posting what was running out of your head, but not re-reading it to make sure that everyone else knew what it was that you were writing... bits in bold were bits I missed out...

I thought Camel was Australian ?

http://www.camelcampertrailers.com.au/

yeah, I know, I was just re-enforcing KB's point, I'm not sure the OP realised

Yep, I know it's an Aussie company... I've got the brochure here in front of me! I just neglected to add Australian/South African at the end of the sentence about the ones that impressed me.

No wish to enter the debate about imports verses local content but I would like to clarify something which you commented upon. Just to be clear, no Chinese camper manufacturer is designing any campers, they are just copying Aussie designs or manufacturing an Aussie design for an Aussie company.

The idea of a walkthrough, or walk up, side fold, soft floor camper is an Aussie design.  There are several Aussie manufacturers making this type of camper.

KB

What I was trying to say is that there is very little to differentiate the campers in some peoples eyes (we know the differences, such as the Fat Barsteward weight of the Chinese ones) so in a bid to make the Australian products stand out in the crowded market place, they (the Australians) need to innovate and come up with new ideas.... much the same way that the Japanese car and motorbike manufacturers did to other country's domestic manufacturing in the 1970's.

[BigJules]

The Australian companies are innovating. And then they get copied and folks buy the cheaper import and demand to know why the guy who built mock ups and trials and who spent months and money on creating something new is asking more for his product.


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[Footy Shorts Shane]

Amazing though, how many personal soap boxes appear, as soon as "Chinese", "Quality" and "camper trailer" are mentioned in the one post...

And the interesting part of that is, a lot of those on their soap boxes, have never owned one of these products and have no first hand experience of them. Not all, but a lot.

Apparently those 1000's of import owners who are happy with their trailer, either don't exist or are just wrong

This pic comes to mind, posted here by another member.

[Bird]

[slcs78]

It's always an interesting debate this. When I bought my camper trailer I had a 10k limit. I was also unsure wether my family would enjoy camping as much as I did when I was young. Sure I looked at Aussie trailers and if I had the money at the time yes I would have bought one but this was my entry point into this lifestyle. Has my trailer had some issues, yep. Have they been fixed with support from the manufacturer, yep. Am I glad I made the purchase and have opened my family's eyes to some beautiful places we have explored, yep........

When the kids are older we will upgrade to a hard floor or hybrid. At this stage the models I like are Aussie built but in the mean time.....

We take off in two weeks for three months so will be able to give a fairly good report on living with an import trailer then....

[tryagain]

The issue may well have been discussed many times before and yet...

The questions about are imported campers any good still get asked regularly. Folks still compare the imports favourably to locally manufactured product.

There are still so many folks out there with recent experiences of being let down by quality and then after sales service or a complete lack thereof. This topic is still hot and relevant.

And sure, you or a bloke you know has never had an issue, and you knew you'd have to fix it all before you did anything, but most buyers don't know that and so many are still reporting being burnt. 


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I have no issue with this being discussed but don't really think it is going to help those buyers that don't already know or can spot there are differences. As others have said it's all been done before and if they don't read that then they likely won't read this.

A couple of years ago when I was researching I went and had a look at a few "Factory seconds" MDC were clearing out. When I was there I could literally match the trailers up with specific bad reviews I had read online. Yes there were some justifiable issues but for the most part, after reading the reviews and then seeing the trailers in the flesh I was left thinking, what were they expecting? do they go and buy a cheap Korean made car and then complain when it isn't to the standard of a high-end Merc at 5-10 x the cost?.
 
I bought a cheap Chinese camper second hand with eyes wide open, It had only been used once in a caravan park so for intensive purposes was new but there was no way I would have accepted it from the seller (not one of the majors) if I'd bought it new,  I made my purchase based on value, my budget and intended use as I think most people do, quality of some bits is nowhere near an equivalent specd Aus made trailer but price was a 1/4 or less than what an equivalent would be. For the most part, the quality was good enough and what wasn't is rectifiable without too much hassle.

I think sometimes you can't protect people from their own stupidity, if they did ANY research they wouldn't be going in with unrealistic expectations in the first place.
(on a side note I think a lot of the dodgy stuff happened here in the assembly, not in China in the manufacturing)

[BigJules]

Shane, as I posted earlier, everyone knows someone who has never had a problem, but I can say that i have met many people who have had issues; some small, some significant. My concern is the number of people who do have issues, as a proportion often market and it's significant. People are losing hard earned money and not having the enjoyable experience they bought into.

Let me also make a point here: it's not the Chinese bloke that built the trailer that is doing people wrong, it is the importers and sellers who take money and then stiff their customer on warranty support for instance.

Campers like most things can have issues; it's how the manufacturer or seller deals with that matters.

[tryagain]

There is a certain company that buys units here and sends them to china to copy nearly bolt for bolt. They don't do any R & Anything.

Whilst I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case is this something you have seen evidence of or was it a case of hearing it through Chinese whispers?

The Australian companies are innovating. And then they get copied and folks buy the cheaper import and demand to know why the guy who built mock ups and trials and who spent months and money on creating something new is asking more for his product.

I don't know that I would really call a lot of what I have seen really as innovation, for the most part, I think it's refinements which the importers do to a lesser extent. When I first saw the Patriot campers I thought wow that's different, then looked a bit further and realised there were already similar concepts around. I don't think people begrudge someone charging more money for a concept they have designed and developed, it's the amount people cannot justify in their head. Predominately through the large difference in prices isn't down to R&D costs but the high cost of manufacturing in Australia. That's why I  foresee an increase in the outsourcing of the manufacturing component, less trial and error with a guy in his shed as the design process and a more of a CAD and actually engineered design process.     

[Bird]

Whilst I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case is this something you have seen evidence of or was it a case of hearing it through Chinese whispers

Its well known. No secrets...No whispers about it. A certain company has been doing it for years.

[BigJules]

You think the Chinese factories use CAD? You're funny.

Suggesting Patriot is an evolution is like suggesting that Falcon is just a Model T with a few changes. Four tyres and a steering don't mean they're similar.


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[tk421]

Let me also make a point here: it's not the Chinese bloke that built the trailer that is doing people wrong, it is the importers and sellers who take money and then stiff their customer on warranty support for instance.

Campers like most things can have issues; it's how the manufacturer or seller deals with that matters.

 

I really dislike the 'Chinese imports are crap' argument.

I have a friend who makes items in China and imports them to Europe. His comments: "If you ask for crap they'll build you crap. If you ask for quality they'll build you quality".

Ultimately it is the importers and 'manufacturers' who are responsible for the quality that hits their showrooms and that they sell.  They're the ones allowing rubbish in.

Ask yourselves - where are Apple, Burberry, Armani, and Prada products made? Who are the world leaders in Solar Technology? Got an LG air conditioner? Guess where its made.  Hmmm, Want to buy Mercedes Benz E class W212?... lots of parts built and assembled by Beijing Benz Automotive.  Listen to music on your Sennheiser headphones? Yup you guessed it. China makes 80 per cent of the world's air conditioners and 90% of the world's PC's... etc etc

[oldmate]

I really dislike the 'Chinese imports are crap' argument.

I have a friend who makes items in China and imports them to Europe. His comments: "If you ask for crap they'll build you crap. If you ask for quality they'll build you quality".

The importers and 'manufacturers' are responsible for the quality that hits their showrooms and that they sell. 

Ask yourselves - where are Apple, Burberry, Armani, and Prada products made? Who are the world leaders in Solar Technology? Got an LG air conditioner? Guess where its made.  Hmmm, Want to buy Mercedes Benz E class W212?... lots of parts built and assembled by Beijing Benz Automotive.  China makes 80 per cent of the world's air conditioners and 90% of the world's PC's... etc etc

China being like that always.

If you go to a factory and say build me an amg sl mercedes for $10g. They will do it.

Everything to a price

[BigJules]

I would also like to acknowledge that I have seen improvement in one brand. MDC have, IMO, substantially improved their offering and also own up to country of origin.


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[tryagain]

You think the Chinese factories use CAD? You're funny.

Thank you, I'm here all week. In all serious pretty sure Chinese factories don't build the iPhone from a few bits of paper, of course they can use CAD, Do they use it now to build campers, I think that would come down to complexity but as most are currently pretty low tech they probably don't need it. That isn't however what I was saying, I was saying is that is what I expect to happen in the future.

Suggesting Patriot is an evolution is like suggesting that Falcon is just a Model T with a few changes. Four tyres and a steering don't mean they're similar.

I suggested the concept/form of the patriot camper wasn't all that different to some others when I looked, the engineering side of things is however, a large leap forwards for CT's and one of the basis for more rationale of where I see the industry heading.

[tryagain]

I would also like to acknowledge that I have seen improvement in one brand. MDC have, IMO, substantially improved their offering and also own up to country of origin.

I'll agree with that. probably part of why they have sold over 50,000 (edit this is from memory and could be wrong likely 30,000ish from comment below) of them. Being open to criticism has allowed them to refine their offering as well as opposed to others.

[Murph]

I find when posting such information the words " in my Opinion "  repeated where appropriate in the post. Really does take the sting out of leagl shenanigans!  It's not just staring a fact it's stating my opinion nothing more and we all know about opinions ? Yep everyone has one of those al well!

I stand to be corrected but there was a case in WA a while back where someone was hauled to court and those 3 little words saved her !

[Bird]

... probably part of why they have sold over 50,000 of them.

would have nothing to do with price

[jkwpajero]

I'll agree with that. probably part of why they have sold over 50,000 of them.

Just under two years ago I was quoted, by MDC in a message, that they had sold 20,000 and selling 86 per week. Do the maths and I can't see how they have sold  30,000 in two years. They also quoted a turnover of $30,000,000.  It won't be too long before the industry in Australia reached peak load and sales will drop. It will be very interesting to see what the marketplace is like in five years. Who will be the sellers who hold on?

 
James

[tryagain]

Just under two years ago I was quoted, by MDC in a message, that they had sold 20,000 and selling 86 per week. Do the maths and I can't see how they have sold  30,000 in two years. They also quoted a turnover of $30,000,000.  It won't be too long before the industry in Australia reached peak load and sales will drop. It will be very interesting to see what the marketplace is like in five years. Who will be the sellers who hold on?

I were sure I had read them quote that figure but can't find it now so I may have got it wrong, I have updated my post. Future will be interesting indeed, who will hold on? my guess from looking at other industries would be those who offer a premium product manufactured here and others who offshore their manufacturing but maintain a reasonable quality, but that is probably more like a 10 yr outlook. I think MDC probably fill the niche where a lot will end up, a reasonable offering at a cheap price. I think we will see a lot of the very cheap and nasties fall away, there is only so long you can keep that up, and I think those that market entry to mid levels but manufacturer locally will struggle.

would have nothing to do with price

 
That would be the other part of the value equation.

[Bird]

and selling 86 per week.

I'd love to see the production line doing the Pre Delivery inspections on them at 17 a day