Any builders here?

[WilSurf]

All,
I want to install an attic ladder in our hallway.
There is an opening however this is to small so has to be extended, which is fine.
When having a look at the attic, the excisting joists/beams are too far apart.
So I need to add 2 headers and a side beam to attach the attic ladder too.
Can I use structural pine for this or is this not strong enough?
Can I use nails to install these beams or........?

[lino6]

Personally, I'd use something like LVL or hardwood. Some timber places have short offcuts that you might be able to pick up cheap. If you were in Victoria I could probably grab enough offcuts from one of our truss plants to do the job!

I would probably screw fix into place also just for the extra strength.

Having said all this, I'm not a builder so feel free to ignore me!! 

[scarpsD40]

Personally, I'd use something like LVL or hardwood. Some timber places have short offcuts that you might be able to pick up cheap. If you were in Victoria I could probably grab enough offcuts from one of our truss plants to do the job!

I would probably screw fix into place also just for the extra strength.

Having said all this, I'm not a builder so feel free to ignore me!! 

i'd trust you, I've seen you with a chainsaw!!!!!

[Rumpig]

All,
I want to install an attic ladder in our hallway.
There is an opening however this is to small so has to be extended, which is fine.
When having a look at the attic, the excisting joists/beams are too far apart.
So I need to add 2 headers and a side beam to attach the attic ladder too.
Can I use structural pine for this or is this not strong enough?
Can I use nails to install these beams or........?

how far is it spanning?...pine will be fine to do the job, just the size of the pine required depends on how far you're spanning the timbers.

[gordo350]

my rule of thumb is to copy the existing timber size for the trimmer and use f17 hardwood. 

[Mangrovematt]

Just installed one at my place,  90x35 pine will be fine to use as the trimmers as the span would not be any larger than approx 1200mm,I used 100mm batten screws , x2 in each end of the trimmers , pre load the ceiling with ply sheeting or yellow tounge flooring while the opening is clear, before you screw the attic ladder frame inplace , once all is installed spread your ply out over the bottom chords of your trusses or ceiling joist ,pull the ladder up and enjoy your new found space away from the kids, I installed mine for camping storage ,vintage surfboards, fishing gear and tax records, etc once the wife spotted it , it is now the new hidding spot for kids Xmas presents , also got the sparkie to instal a LED circular Fluro ,

[CampAround]

Be careful how much weight you put up there wilsurf. Trusses are designed to support weight from a roof only, and are independent of your internal walls. You don't want them to sag too much.

[dales133]

As long as the trusses are in accessible location just laminate to those and frame to suit inbetween

[Rumpig]

Just installed one at my place,  90x35 pine will be fine to use as the trimmers as the span would not be any larger than approx 1200mm,I used 100mm batten screws , x2 in each end of the trimmers , pre load the ceiling with ply sheeting or yellow tounge flooring while the opening is clear, before you screw the attic ladder frame inplace , once all is installed spread your ply out over the bottom chords of your trusses or ceiling joist ,pull the ladder up and enjoy your new found space away from the kids, I installed mine for camping storage ,vintage surfboards, fishing gear and tax records, etc once the wife spotted it , it is now the new hidding spot for kids Xmas presents , also got the sparkie to instal a LED circular Fluro ,

whilst 90 x 35 will work, for holding up the ladder swinging off of it it's at the smaller end of timber size to use if spanning 1200mm IMHO, I'd look at 45mm thick timber myself or go up to a 120 x 35mm instead.
I installed one in our hallway, yellow tounge flooring and built a room up there I fully sheeted walls and ceiling, lighting and with a door to get into the roof space

[dales133]

And the room up there was for?... lol only joking bud (excuse the pun.
The benefit of yellow tong is it sheet brass the trusses and means alot of strength is created with little effort provided it's fixed properly.
Anything thick up there will aid foot traffic. ...see if Jackie lambie is free yet lol

[prodigyrf]

"Can I use structural pine for this or is this not strong enough?
Can I use nails to install these beams or........?"

Yes you can bearing in mind your roof structure is designed for dead load (the weight of members plus roofing and ceiling lining, insulation, lighting, cabling etc) plus live load. Presumably you have an iron roof and hence 1200 gangnail truss or conventional pitched rafter spacings whereas tiled roof will generally be 600 spacings. For worker safety nowadays they'll be 900 maxm spacings.

Now bear in mind live load will include wind effect (including uplift), rain, ice or even snow loads in appropriate climates but it also allows for 'reasonable' maintenance traffic and that's you or a worker or two but not the whole family or footy team. So with your attic ladder use some similar pine members say 90 x 45 minm screw fixed trimmers and feel comfortable that the members will safely carry one really fat dude. 45mm wide won't split as easily with fixings as say 35mm and it's relatively cheap so don't be afraid to double laminate and nail it if that's easier.

Now to building a trafficable platform/spare room/storage are up there and it's a whole new ball game bearing in mind those design dead and live loads mentioned. Yes some more dead load structafloor and judiciously spread light storage (uniformly distributed load as distinct from large point loading) and you are OK but forget about building a true spare room up there without designing in floor dead and live loadings although you can't do that with a gangnail truss roof anyway.

[ben54b]

I used a combination of 90*45 and 90*90 pine as I had both on hand. I always like to use screws rather than nails. I used 3/8 drive tek screws and bugle heads in mine. Also best to get your flooring up there while the hole is cut before you fit the ladder. Heaps more space. I used green tongue rather than yellow as it is 800 wide rather than 900 easier to get up the hole.


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[WilSurf]

Thanks all.
The existing beams/joists are all jarrah and we have a tiled roof.
I haven't measured the width yet. The walls are 1.05 apart.

[avotrol]

From what I have seen, sand gropers really love their pitched roofs (ceiling joists and rafters supported on internal walls) as opposed to trussed roofs (made in a factory and supported only on external walls). With a pitched roof, you can treat the area that you install flooring in the same as a normal timber floor as long as the ceiling (now floor / ceiling) joists are supported by hanging beams (hangers) which in turn are supported on load bearing internal and external walls. The only other way is to install new bigger joists to carry the floor loads.

As always, all framing and floor sheets MUST NOT exceed their maximum allowable spans / distances. To span 900 or 1200mm you would need thick structural plywood (think big $ per sheet) as particle board flooring (in the red tongue 22mm thick version) only spans to a maximum of 600mm. Yellow tongue is 19mm and spans 450mm. Both red and yellow tongue are CSR products. Other companies flooring has different colour plastic tongues but have the same spans for the same thicknesses.

Prehaps the best thing would be to have an engineer design what you want or just get a carpenter or builder to work it all out and install it for you, assuming you do want to have a floor area up there. Otherwise, yeah, as already said, two pine 90 x 45 MGP 10 or 12 (F5 or F7 in old language) or jarrah trimmers laminated and fixed in place with 100mm 12 gauge screws will hold up the ladder itself.

  avo

[Heavensent]

ok instead of starting new thread need some advice.
this is from our new house currently being built.

this is standing inside facing outwsrds at one of our floor to ceiling windows.
as you can see pad cuts in leaving big gap between window frame and pad.

been told this will be fixed with some angle line steel.

is this an appropriate fix??
or a dodgy fix??

been a very stressful build already.

[deepop]

ok instead of starting new thread need some advice.
this is from our new house currently being built.

this is standing inside facing outwsrds at one of our floor to ceiling windows.
as you can see pad cuts in leaving big gap between window frame and pad.

been told this will be fixed with some angle line steel.

is this an appropriate fix??
or a dodgy fix??

been a very stressful build already.

Get another builder or inspector in to look at it - don't take (possibly experienced but unknown) advice off a forum.   

Remember the building world is full of alterations/mistakes fixed up/things changed.   It's only the quality of the fix that makes the difference.

[prodigyrf]

Avatrol- "With a pitched roof, you can treat the area that you install flooring in the same as a normal timber floor as long as the ceiling (now floor / ceiling) joists are supported by hanging beams (hangers) which in turn are supported on load bearing internal and external walls."

Nooooooooo!!!! Hanging beams are specifically designed to reduce ceiling joist spans taking into account light ceiling loadings NOT floor joist dead and live loading spans.

There are Nationally Certified span tables within the Timber Framing Code Standards for various members under certain Design criteria and specific limitations and outside of those parameters, yes you will need a qualified Engineer to work out loading, spans and fixings. There are also manufacturer Certified tables (computer programs) for engineered timber products like LVL, Hyspan, etc which can be used but you have to know all about the design criteria to use them and that's not for lay-persons or the faint-hearted.

The Building Code of Australia now consists of Vol1 and Vol2 with States Apendices themselves referencing a library full of Australian Standards and you have to do a lot of schooling nowadays to understand it all and why you pay qualified Builders what you now have to as a result. It can get very ugly if you don't know what in blazes you're doing-
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/messenger/north-northeast/heres-the-dirt-where-bobs-dream-house-once-stood-playford-council-warns-of-approval-noncompliance-consequence/story-fni9ll1r-1227123016753
"Bob the Builder he can fixit!"  err..not quite children..

Edit: Here's a good rundown on the very first step you'll need to go through before you start looking up TFC tables or specifying any structural members-
http://stratco.com.au/pdf/Brochures/other/Wind_Speed_Design_Guide.pdf
And after you've had a taste of that try seeing if you can decipher what a 'counter strutting roof beam' is all about, let alone specifying one for a particular roof layout

[prodigyrf]

deepop-
Sorry but I can't make much sense of that pic other than it looks like some rotted timber laying on concrete. Can you provide a big picture pic (panorama) and then a couple of progressively closer shots to elucidate?

[Heavensent]

Was actually my pic, will try and get a better one next time I'm at the house.

[avotrol]

quote from prodigyrf:
"Nooooooooo!!!! Hanging beams are specifically designed to reduce ceiling joist spans taking into account light ceiling loadings NOT floor joist dead and live loading spans."

Correct, STANDARD hanging beams are for supporting ceiling loads only, however in this case the new members would not just be standard hangers, such as with 'counter strutting roof beams' that (for the "layman") are combined ceiling hanger AND roof strutting beams (no big deal and are commonly used in many pitched roofs). Despite their dual use, they are still commonly called a hanging beam.

AS I SAID, anything that the original poster wanted to do needed to be designed by an engineer or a qualified tradesman / builder who, like myself and other qualified persons, uses the relevant span tables and codes when calculating framing member sizes, loads and spans.

So instead of bombarding the OP with a whole lot of technical jargon that a "layperson" or that someone who is "faint hearted" wouldn't understand, I kept it basic to show that, yes you can (where's Bob the builder) install a attic ladder and create storage space in the roof cavity but it needs to be done properly, by someone who actually does know design and spans and loads and the difference between a trimmer, hanger, joist, rafter, purlin, strut, collar tie, flyer, top and bottom chord, web, gang plate etc etc etc. I hope that's not too laypersonish for you is it?

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!! Its spelt AVOTROL. 

[oldmate]

now play nice guys, dont want to see someone get nailed!

[prodigyrf]

Points taken avotrol but the post had strayed to some suggesting we can all whack up some more timbers and structafloor in a roof space and she'll be right to party mate!

Buildings rarely fail and hurt people nowadays and that's because of some very onerous technical Regulation based on a lot of sound engineering and reaction to experience (Cyclone Tracy in Darwin, earthquake in Newcastle, Vic bushfires, etc continually impacting the BCA ) Just remember as a homeowner you can on-sell your home and thereby incur a long term liability for any structural latent fault/s you leave behind and there's lots of hungry ambulance chasers around these days. Don't assume because you know the limitations of creating a bit of handyman roof storage and treat it accordingly, the next maroon will.

[Meken]

In Qld what the op is doing is considered building work and needs to be carried out by a licenced builder or owner builder (after doing a tafe course) - I would expect similar regulation in other states ( it involves altering the structure)


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[Rumpig]

In Qld what the op is doing is considered building work and needs to be carried out by a licenced builder or owner builder (after doing a tafe course) - I would expect similar regulation in other states ( it involves altering the structure)

I can just imagine what a builder would charge to do a job like that....lol

[Gav22]

I can just imagine what a builder would charge to do a job like that....lol

I am a qualified builder and I would only charge you about $100, its really not that hard to put the ladder in, its more what you plan on storing up there that is the problem

Cheers
Gav