Author Topic: Toyota is pulling the pin in Australia too. 2017.  (Read 19448 times)

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crackacoldie

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Re: Toyota is pulling the pin in Australia too. 2017.
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2014, 10:06:24 AM »
Manufacturing needs cheap labour, cheap energy, and cheap transport.

Australia has none of those hence the reason why manufacturing is going offshore.  We are even struggling to maintain supply of cheap resources, next time there is a global downturn we won't fare so well.

Up until 2010 we had the cheapest power in the world, then something changed and our power prices increased dramatically, yes I know what the change was.  Power prices cannot be blamed fully on this one event though, the way the power market is regulated in Australia is another proof that self regulation of an industry does not work.

Back to original point - when we had the cheapest power, we could have higher labour costs, with higher power prices we become uncompetitive.  Too late to change this now, however, power price increases and tariff protection decrease spelt the end to an automotive industry.

The free trade agreements that are being introduced by successive governments is unsustainable when only one party, Australia, abides by them. 

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Re: Toyota is pulling the pin in Australia too. 2017.
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2014, 10:22:50 AM »
Is this also a symptom of growth. Economies keep growing and the people get wealthier and the poorer step up. I saw a video once about growth and how it is unsustainable.

Exactly, to continue to grow you need to continue to innovate, the growth curve is an inverse parabola. Just like in IT, IBM, Novell, Microsoft, Apple, Google, some are gone, a few are thriving and the rest are redefining themselves with new innovation to continue to grow again otherwise they too will die. The last 20 or so years have been the wealthiest this country has ever seen, we are now being caught by other countries who want some of that wealth too. We need to out innovate them or we will be left behind. The CSIRO have been saying this for ages, we need to step up in the sciences to pave the way for a new avenue of wealth after the cheap labour and resources dry up...
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Re: Toyota is pulling the pin in Australia too. 2017.
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2014, 12:08:10 PM »
I think the end of car making in Australia was inevitable, although it might have been delayed if Holden and Ford had made the sort of cars Australians (and other countries) wanted to buy.  There is limited demand for Commodores, Falcons and Territories in Australia and almost none overseas: at least Toyota exported a large percentage of the Camrys they make here.  Toyota's manufacturing here was borderline in numbers: what has forced this decision on them is the fact that the withdrawal of Ford and General Motors has had such a serious impact on the local component suppliers that they will not be viable, forcing Toyota to import all their components with the resultant negative impact on their supply chain.

We are just not a large enough market to sustain an unsubsidised car manufacturing industry - in fact not many countries are.  The USA and all the European countries subsidise their car industries.
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Re: Toyota is pulling the pin in Australia too. 2017.
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2014, 12:11:36 PM »
The USA and all the European countries subsidise their car industries.

Look what has happened in Detroit, it is all but a ghost town with most factories moved to Thailand. I read the other day the US used to have over 50 car manufacturing facilities in the boom time, now they only have 3. What hope did we have...
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Re: Toyota is pulling the pin in Australia too. 2017.
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2014, 12:19:13 PM »
So where will 1 Term Tony find 20,000 jobs in Victoria for untrained people.. cause things are looking up for people in the car building industry...

Sorry, but I see this as a large step to nowhere. I see a very sad bleak future for my kids in this country now.
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Re: Toyota is pulling the pin in Australia too. 2017.
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2014, 12:23:54 PM »
D4D and Pipeliner, you are missing the point - as Hairs says, it is all a Union Labor plot... a view which conveniently ignores that both the Union and Workers agreed with GMH to alter working conditions, but GMH chose to pull the pin anyway - but only after Hockey effectively 'dared' them to.
Once GMH decided to go the demise of Toyota was inevitable, although several 'brilliant' decicisions by that firm, such as introducing the Dodo Avalon to the Aussie market and ending assembly of the Corolla here didn't do much to put them on a sound footing.
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Re: Toyota is pulling the pin in Australia too. 2017.
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2014, 12:25:50 PM »
So where will 1 Term Tony find 20,000 jobs in Victoria for untrained people.. cause things are looking up for people in the car building industry...

Sorry, but I see this as a large step to nowhere. I see a very sad bleak future for my kids in this country now.
When he was rabbitting on the other day about this being an 'opportunity' he cited that Coles are opening 2 new supermarkets in Melbourne and another in Geelong.  FFS!
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Re: Toyota is pulling the pin in Australia too. 2017.
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2014, 12:45:13 PM »
Pretty much sums up what I was saying Mace, innovate or die. Sad but it is the reality we live in.
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Offline ras

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Re: Toyota is pulling the pin in Australia too. 2017.
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2014, 03:21:44 PM »
D4D, notice that there is no minister for science in the federal government any more? Doesn't really instil confidence in the future. When government is run at the behest of vested interests science gets in the way sometimes. No point in having a minister for a department that you just ignore, it could cause political embarrassment. So why do we have a minister for industry?

Offline dazzler

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Re: Toyota is pulling the pin in Australia too. 2017.
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2014, 04:13:29 PM »
Are we blaming D4D are we?

And I didn't even vote for him.  See people - democracy does not work! (KB)
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Re: Toyota is pulling the pin in Australia too. 2017.
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2014, 04:30:12 PM »
The last 20 or so years have been the wealthiest this country has ever seen, we are now being caught by other countries who want some of that wealth too. We need to out innovate them or we will be left behind. The CSIRO have been saying this for ages, we need to step up in the sciences to pave the way for a new avenue of wealth after the cheap labour and resources dry up...

Now just wait a moment while we organize a union to sort you out with what you can and can't do and how much it's going to cost ya to do it. lol

Offline achjimmy

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Re: Toyota is pulling the pin in Australia too. 2017.
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2014, 04:56:18 PM »
Oh boy I wasn’t going to reply because there are so many views on this,  but here goes.

For my background I have been involved in supplying the MVI (motor vehicle industry) and Tier suppliers for 14+ years. Both here and worked with some OS. I have worked and liasoned with industry groups and unions.
Bit of background so you understand some things.  Senator Button (labor senator) introduced the “button plan” which many blame started the rot. Button was a clever guy and a practical guy IMO. He forced the car companies to start getting productivity in place and making more modern cars. Unfortunately at the same time his greedy boss decided on the FBT (fringe benefits tax) this was the first blow to local manufacturers. At that stage the majority of Falcondores made were sold to companies, after that local cars sales started a slide as industry invented ways of circumventing FBT ie car allowances and salary sacrificing we have today, of course once the choice became part of the employees they decided on what they wanted from ALL the manufacturers.
Unfortunately Button was the last clever guy from the government. After that successive idiots have just handed money over to the MVI without very little thought as to a return or assurances. During the GFC the independent transmission factory at Albury got into debt after SsangYong didn't come through with promised funds (you would not believe how many contracts are agreed to and done on wishy washy promises in the MVI) this was the only other independent transmission factory in the world beside ZF, the knowledge and IP there was staggering. They required about $30-50M to be saved, no amount of pleading by industry or the AMWU could get the government to budge, it let the Chinese Auto giant Geely buy it. Geely have since reduced employment at Albury but duplicated the line in China twice! No wonder the union was so quick to sharpen knifes on Rudd a year later, at the same time he gave GM and Ford millions without any real assurances, Howard did little for Manufacturing but considering labor is supposedly the workers party their last 5 years is a disgrace in regards to industry. The car companies’ decisions were largely made then. Ford had the fiesta manufacturing platform coming here in 2007 before cancelling in 2008. I never found out the reason, but the thing with small cars is there less money. It doesn’t cost much more to manufacture a $80,000 commodore than it does a $20,000 box when it comes to raw materials and assembly. But the profits are sooo much more. So manufacturing the Corolla here with a higher labor and utilities cost doesn’t work. We need to be making BMW and merc type cars to cover costs
I found the AMWU  receptive to  things that would help the MVI like B&B posted above, there was a guy called Dave Smith who worked very hard, unfortunately reform came a too late I think. Where the unions where complicit IMO was on the floor where they protected workers who should have been let go. I recall a situation where Ford had an employee damaging equipment by incorrect use (not maliciously) just because he didn’t want to change! Management were pleaded with but nobody would take this guy to task, Productivity lost!
Toyotas fate was sealed years ago, after the glass makers closed, Toyota don’t like having a manufacturing plant anywhere in the world where they have to import glass. I think they continued because they didn’t want to be the first to pull out.

So sadly we are here now, the loss to Australia is the skills, yes the unskilled employees are a loss. But think of all the “smart” things the clever people will invent and how few toolmakers and machinists will be around to make those “smart’ things. The cochlear implant, the ventracor artificial heart (another Aussie company Rudd let go during the GFC), etc  etc all require lots of good tradesmen who in previous years were trained in the MVI, the armaments industry, the railway workshops. All now gone? 

The great countries of the worlds have largely all been the great manufacturers at one stage.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 05:03:25 PM by achjimmy »
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Re: Toyota is pulling the pin in Australia too. 2017.
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2014, 05:00:43 PM »
D4D, notice that there is no minister for science in the federal government any more? Doesn't really instil confidence in the future. When government is run at the behest of vested interests science gets in the way sometimes. No point in having a minister for a department that you just ignore, it could cause political embarrassment. So why do we have a minister for industry?

Anyone notice that Cadbury gets 16mill to help update their plant in Tassie but nothing for SPC funny that.
When you think about the payroll tax they pay for their 4000 employees the tax the government makes off its products as well as keeping 4000 people off the doll cue I wonder what that will amount to in just one year and then five.

Have a look at the following pic as well little bit wrong don't you think, I guess they have shares in Tony inc.

Oh and dont worry jayco owners Tony will save you :-P
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 05:08:06 PM by BBwilly »

Offline ras

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Re: Toyota is pulling the pin in Australia too. 2017.
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2014, 05:24:21 PM »
The most worrying thing about all this is the total lack of strategy and leadership by our government. There is just a blind belief that the free market will sort it out. So we are going to dig up stuff and send it overseas and maybe grow stuff and send that overseas? And what is the other 60% of the eligible workforce going to do? Where is the vision for Australia's future?

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Re: Toyota is pulling the pin in Australia too. 2017.
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2014, 05:47:57 PM »
Correct, it's all unsustainable given enough time. 

Kinda like musical chairs.  There isn't enough to go around and when the music stops someone gets a chair at the expense of someone else.  If there ever is enough to go around, or more to the point if everyone has 'enough', we'd vaporise in an instant  :D

People are talking about the 'rise' of China, but history shows China was once the biggest, then the music stopped for a few centuries, now they on the way back.  Don't for a moment believe that any of the 'first world' economies can't become a third world economy in a few short years.

Remember when a 'blue-chip' company made a consistent and reliable profit decade after decade?  People put there money in to get a better return than the banks, and were happy to leave it there and ride the small ups and downs.  Nowadays if a company doesn't make a profit, and increase that profit exponentially year after year, people pull their money out and an otherwise perfectly good company goes down the drain.     

The truly scary thing is that the world economy is based on nothing more than how investors 'feel and has very little factual basis.  What tempers things these days is the sheer size and number of players in that economy who can't react as fast as others.

Consider gold as an example.  It doesn't 'do' anything.  Sure it has industrial uses, but most of it's 'value' is based on nothing more tha "Oooh look, its shiney".  Gold isn't even a very good investment as you only get a return when you sell it.  But people still flee to gold when they get scared.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 05:52:17 PM by Beatle »
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Offline Mace

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Re: Toyota is pulling the pin in Australia too. 2017.
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2014, 05:53:17 PM »
The last few posts have convinced me that there are some far more intelligent persons here on myswag than on the floor of current and past parliaments.

Innovation and productivity live hand in hand.
Time for a myswagger in Parliament.

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Re: Toyota is pulling the pin in Australia too. 2017.
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2014, 06:16:36 PM »

The last few posts have convinced me that there are some far more intelligent persons here on myswag than on the floor of current and past parliaments.

Innovation and productivity live hand in hand.
Time for a myswagger in Parliament.

 :cheers:
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Offline Mace

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Re: Toyota is pulling the pin in Australia too. 2017.
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2014, 06:23:43 PM »
Hold on Al, Speewa hadn't posted yet :)

I reckon speewaa would make a great candidate, he alone can erect a shower tent unaided.

He knows what the common man thinks (no Jamie, you ain't common) because he lives the dream!

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Re: Toyota is pulling the pin in Australia too. 2017.
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2014, 06:34:20 PM »
He made his campaign speech at Nymboida.

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Re: Toyota is pulling the pin in Australia too. 2017.
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2014, 06:49:45 PM »
My $2 worth.

We can all blame the Govt, the tariffs and have ideas what we should do to stop Australian companies folding but at the end of the day it is us the consumer who will dictate who survives and who does not in today's economy. We have the final say. Do we spend more and buy Australian and help the economy and Australian businesses or do we continue to buy off Ebay and imported items. As we are talking about the car industry , why do we buy the imported cars. If ford or holdern make a similar vehicle why did we not buy from them. Was it the quality, the price or something else. At the end of the day it's the price.

Yes naturally not all products can be purchased in Australia but honestly if the same identical item is available but dearer and Australin made, would we all buy it. Yes some would but the majority would not. It shows on this forum our spending habits with deals obtained overseas. I think we can be a bit cynical sometimes. No disrespect.

The old saying support Australian made, but do we....

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Offline achjimmy

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Re: Toyota is pulling the pin in Australia too. 2017.
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2014, 06:58:16 PM »
My $2 worth.

We can all blame the Govt, the tariffs and have ideas what we should do to stop Australian companies folding but at the end of the day it is us the consumer who will dictate who survives and who does not in today's economy. We have the final say. Do we spend more and buy Australian and help the economy and Australian businesses or do we continue to buy off Ebay and imported items. As we are talking about the car industry , why do we buy the imported cars. If ford or holdern make a similar vehicle why did we not buy from them. Was it the quality, the price or something else. At the end of the day it's the price.

Yes naturally not all products can be purchased in Australia but honestly if the same identical item is available but dearer and Australin made, would we all buy it. Yes some would but the majority would not. It shows on this forum our spending habits with deals obtained overseas. I think we can be a bit cynical sometimes. No disrespect.

The old saying support Australian made, but do we....

Mark

Your right Mark but re cars we don't make fourbies, that's a whole another story. If I wanted a sedan I would buy a Falcon GE6 in a heartbeat, great value car for  <$40k.

my suggestion years ago. Stop giving the car companies money and subsidise the locally made cars directly according to content.  Ie falcon/territory most local content $12k cash back from govt to purchaser. Commodore $8k etc etc then we are not giving money to car manufacturers but encouraging production. More numbers = cheaper production = more profits  win win win.
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Offline chookduck

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Re: Toyota is pulling the pin in Australia too. 2017.
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2014, 07:30:01 PM »
That's what I figured. So if there is no manufacturing here, what are the tarrifs protecting. I'm all for supporting Aussie made where I can, but as I can't stop holden, ford, Toyota from ceasing manufacturing here, then I would hope that the tarrifs which turn a $35000 BMW into a $50000 BMW are lifted.
I can't see these taxes going though, why would they it makes the government money. And after all cars are ported then that's even more money.

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Tariffs for imported cars range from 0 to 5% only at present.  Most of the increase in car vehicle prices are actually from Australian Gov't Taxes, e.g., Luxury Car Tax for vehicles over $60316, stamp duties, GST of 10% etc etc.  Your $35000 BMW only has a maximum increase to its price of $1750 due tariffs.
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Offline laf

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Re: Toyota is pulling the pin in Australia too. 2017.
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2014, 07:47:44 PM »
perhaps if the FBT was used as button wanted  i.e support the ossie car industry and not the imported cars it may of seen all gov depts driving FORDS and HOLDENS  . But perhaps there was a do gooder who said all playing fields must be level. WHERE ARE THEY NOW ?? and  is it level or are we now a dumping ground for cheap untried cars, which will no doubt evolve over time into great cars but a bit of pain in the mean time, might buy another ford longreach ute for spares  :cheers:

Offline edz

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Re: Toyota is pulling the pin in Australia too. 2017.
« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2014, 08:00:12 PM »
Well the car plants are stuffed .... its looking like we should innovate and build our own .......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi3G1OIjYvo
OK the first clip is a bit of humour this next one has a bit of creation that could be done here and create jobs in industry

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tdWFTpObmc
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 08:15:04 PM by edz »
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