Author Topic: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?  (Read 71852 times)

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Offline weeds

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2014, 02:42:39 PM »
there is always two sides tot he story, the media only give one....hence I don't watch or read the news

Offline chookduck

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2014, 03:05:11 PM »
I believe and I don't have the facts in front of me to support this but apparently there are more illegal immigrants in Australia who have arrived by air than by sea.

Now some questions of mine that hopefully someone can answer.

When these people arrive in Indonesia is it legally or illegally. If the latter how do they get through border control

When they leave their homeland don't they have to go through some sort of government controlled port who would be checking documentation or doesn't the government care.


If you have a read of "The Report of the Expert Panel on Asylum Seekers" of 2012 see http://expertpanelonasylumseekers.dpmc.gov.au/sites/default/files/report/expert_panel_on_asylum_seekers_full_report.pdf  you will get an appreciation of the complexities involved.

With respect to the question on air verses maritime arrivals, the following from the above report states:

"Onshore asylum figures are made up of both air and maritime arrivals.  from 1 July 1998 to 27 July 2012 there were 79,498 applications for a protection visa by persons who arrived in Australia by air and subsequently applied for a protection visa.  This compares with some 33,412 boat arrivals over the same period, most of whom applied for protection." 

As I stated before, the boat people issue is more 'sexy' from a media point of view.  Do most Australians even realise the above fact that some 46,000 more people arrived by air means seeking protection visas????

For some background to the remaining questions see the above Report Annexes.
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Offline dazzler

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2014, 03:50:44 PM »
Evidence based.........well that's you opinion but bear in mind, I'm a lot closer to the issue than you think..........

as for today tonight et al, absolute carp and I don't watch 'em.

Have no issues with people trying to get true asylum however....................How is it that they can afford to PAY someone to SMUGGLE them into Australia?

Oh, and another thing, why is the majority of these supposed "seekers" male? I know as a family man, the first and formost for me would be sending my wife and kids away from coflict etc rather than myself........ ??? ??? ???

Hi Doc

Apologies for being a little aggressive earlier. 

People who seek asylum are not routinely poor so paying someone is not really an issue.  I have friends who escaped Iran when the shah was exiled.  They were Bahai and were genuinely being persecuted and left through the darkness of night.  They actually had some time to prepare as they could see it coming politically and liquidated their assets.  The kids had gold in the lining of their clothes and the parents carried diamonds they could swallow if they needed to.  They hid through the day and then travelled at night until they got to Iraq and I cant remember how they ended up here.  But the point is that they had a fair bit of money to get them through. 

I imagine that if push came to shove I and I had to genuinely escape Australia I could put my hand on sufficient money to pay my way somewhere.  And of course I would use it.  Keep in mind they are coming from Indonesia and if you are caught in Indonesia you are jailed for between 6months and 2 years.  It is simply a corrupt country so many transit through it.  I wonder what you or I would do if we were in their position.  We have money to transit so we dont need to take the chance of getting locked up or going into one of their camps where you are slowly bled of money due to the corruption.  It's not a simple yes no answer as anything is in life.  There is also no queue to line up in but THERE BLOODY WELL SHOULD BE!. 

As for the single male issue, in many instances it is the male of the family that is targeted or at risk in their own country. The Hazara are a perfect example.  It is rare for women and children to be killed but males often.  The other issue is that poorer families pool money to get the son or father out on the hope they will make it and arrange for the rest to come later.

Dont get me wrong here, I am not a bleeding heart greens supporter.  I understand the law and get the darks when our country blatantly screws with it for political gain.  Our defence force is not a police force/immigration service.  Their role should simply be the protection of our borders against THREAT. There is no threat from asylum seekers.  Other than a possible health issue dealt with through quarantine there is no threat. 

The defence force need only determine a threat and in the event that there is no threat it becomes a police/dimia issue.

My views on this softened after I arranged the deportation of a family of Hazara from Devonport to Baxter and back to Afghanistan.  I have written of this before.  This fella knew he was going home to die.  You could see it in his eyes.  He had a lovely family.  Four kids, two in school.  He worked at the meatworks in Longford and asked nothing of our Government except our protection. 

He had made his claims but Dimia determined he was not at risk despite being a Hazara who are at risk so had to return.  We chatted for about an hour while the private charter jet was prepared (I kid you not a private charter).  Which just chatted about our families and life in general.  He had a govt job in his country but lost that when the govt changed.  As he left he shook my hand and thanked me for my time and wished my family well.  (If anyone is still reading this read it again.)  I doubt anyone here would shake the hand of the prick sending them back to at the very least a poor future.

Of course there are exceptions and there are people using the system.  But they get caught once they are here anyway.  If they cant prove their grounds for asylum they go to detention until it is dealt with.  Many do destroy their documents on the way and some do it at the suggestion of the smugglers.  But many do it simply to stay alive.  If you are a Tamil or a Hazara you do not want to get caught with your real name on anything.  Funny thing is that if you look at the history of Scotland their people did a similar thing when the civil war was on and would adopt the local clan name.  So a Campbell would become a McDonald simply to stay alive.

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Offline Nick74

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2014, 04:39:49 PM »
Of course the Navy beat them. The RAN have been around for ages and the boaties are just getting here.
Tehrefore the RAN beat them ........ here  ;D
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Offline whitey

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2014, 04:55:49 PM »
  Asylum seekers claim to be have been beaten by Navy- what do you think...... what...no witnesses? weren't there any spectators or even an umpire to prove otherwise.. looks like we won another game :cup: wait till they take on the English cricket team they might have a  WIN... :angel:

Offline Brutus

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2014, 06:05:42 PM »
My 2c worth:

1) I don't know all the ins & outs of the legality of these boaties but to pay & attempt to enter the country in a different method to joining the que is poor.

2) I feel for those that have had to travel 100's even 1000's of kms to get to the Aussie ferry terminus but I have to ask what is wrong with Indonesia or some of the other countries you have travelled through? Were you shot at, bombed etc?

3) why destroy any papers you have when these can be used to expedite your entry into Australia? Surely by destroying your documents you realise that lengthy stays in detention centres will occur.


I could go on for some time but from my seat these boaties are not starting off well and to claim abuse without evidence just because they didn't get to their desired destination is very poor form and I wish you luck finding the money required for your next ticket aboard some derelict old fishing boat.

Offline muzza01

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2014, 06:25:55 PM »
If the claims of abuse are true, then we need to investigate and discipline and parties involved.

If the claims are false, then we need to ensure these trouble makers are never processed when they eventually successfully arrive on another boat.  The hard working people of the Defence Force don't need bad publicity and false accusations made against them.

Offline krisandkev

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2014, 07:34:04 PM »
Let me see. The claims have been ‘exposed’ by the media.  One of them (the media apparently) spoke to a few alleged asylum seekers who have failed to enter Australia and are now back in Indonesia.  They claim they were threatened, handcuffed and bashed and some have drowned. We can trust our media to be truthful can’t we.  The alleged asylum seekers would not lie.  I can see a problem here.   >:D  Sorry, but I personally trust our services, they do an extremely difficult job.  Kevin
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Offline dazzler

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2014, 07:45:08 PM »
A boatload made it to hobart.

They left behind 7 rolex's, $400,000 in cash and three beemers.

At least I got their boat  :)




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Offline Aaron Schubert

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2014, 07:51:01 PM »
I think we shouldn't comment unless we know the facts! The media has been known to exaggerate things every now and again ;).

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Offline dazzler

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2014, 08:14:50 PM »
Stealthy little buggers.


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Offline evolution

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2014, 08:31:34 PM »
I have always tried to stay out of the political related threads, but this one gets up my goat.
Lets look at it this way.
"ALLEGED"  abuse and violence from ADF personal, be it RAN, RAA or RAAF.
All ADF personal operating have SOP's ROE's and a bs load of other requirements before they think about acting.
Not one of the personal doing this have an easy job. They are called professionals for a reason. lets face it, 99% of the time they are dam good at what they do.
Yes like all organisations there are always going to be a bad apple or two. The video footage "uncovered" by Aussie reporters shows that the ADF personal involved were professional and very relaxed.
For gods sake, people seem to forget that a soldier, sailor, airman/woman, police officer, medic, firey are just an another hardworking Aussie doing a tough job!
I blame the media for this, Seriously these people put themselves in harms way doing a job for less money than you think for our benefit.
AND the media still persist in finding a story no matter how trivial or benign and turning it into an execution.
The other point to note is the last I saw, I have never EVER seen a general or Admiral conducting a boarding party on a foreign vessel.
So why blame the poor shmucks following orders?
I know that the vast majority here don't think like this, but how about we all as AUSTRALIANS get behind our serving family and tell the media where to shove it?

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Offline bobnrob

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2014, 09:29:41 PM »
Why would they waste their time beating these people up, when they should be making sure their guns are in top notch condition?   :angel:
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Offline discoteddy

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2014, 09:50:18 PM »
I have always tried to stay out of the political related threads, but this one gets up my goat.
Lets look at it this way.
"ALLEGED"  abuse and violence from ADF personal, be it RAN, RAA or RAAF.
All ADF personal operating have SOP's ROE's and a bs load of other requirements before they think about acting.
Not one of the personal doing this have an easy job. They are called professionals for a reason. lets face it, 99% of the time they are dam good at what they do.
Yes like all organisations there are always going to be a bad apple or two. The video footage "uncovered" by Aussie reporters shows that the ADF personal involved were professional and very relaxed.
For gods sake, people seem to forget that a soldier, sailor, airman/woman, police officer, medic, firey are just an another hardworking Aussie doing a tough job!
I blame the media for this, Seriously these people put themselves in harms way doing a job for less money than you think for our benefit.
AND the media still persist in finding a story no matter how trivial or benign and turning it into an execution.
The other point to note is the last I saw, I have never EVER seen a general or Admiral conducting a boarding party on a foreign vessel.
So why blame the poor shmucks following orders?
I know that the vast majority here don't think like this, but how about we all as AUSTRALIANS get behind our serving family and tell the media where to shove it?

ok Soap box kicked away and used for kindling now....

Cheers
Evo

(ps: please excuse my horrible grammar in this post)


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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2014, 10:42:16 PM »
Being someone who has been heavily involved personally in these Operations, Op Relex, Op Resolute and now Op Sovereign Borders  over man years there is much I cannot dievolge but let's just say, don't believe all what is sold by media or Government. Personal feelings aside and in reply to the direct accusation in the article, in my experience and everything I have seen all is every single Boat Person is treat well and with the utmost respect that every human deserves. This is briefed heavily prior to every boarding. Our sailors/my colleagues put up with much in return which again I have witness and managed. So, all I ask is to please appreciated and understand the un-winnable situation our Sailors, Soldiers and Airmen. They do their utmost with very little.

Interesting so much is taken by the words of these boat people......

Thanks you Tea Bag.... That't also what I have seen after being with in the camps to fix lines that were dug up by the gardeners on the group. It was an accident, but what I saw was not some thing to cause concern. There reading too much into their own press these days and that vagueness needs to stop
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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2014, 11:06:21 PM »
Thanks you Tea Bag.... That't also what I have seen after being with in the camps to fix lines that were dug up by the gardeners on the group. It was an accident, but what I saw was not some thing to cause concern. There reading too much into their own press these days and that vagueness needs to stop

There is a very simple mechanism to stop this ... The same one that Howard was happy to see applied in recent conflicts in what the yanks apparently refer to as 'south west Asia'.
Embed journos on the naval boats.
I am damn sure that the service personnel would be happy to have media scrutiny, to put un-fair claims to bed.
However, would perhaps constrain the feckless polices from what they order service men and women to do.
It is a fundamental tenet of any society that 'daylight is a great disinfectant'.  If it was good enough in a genuine shooting war then surely there is no reason, beyond political expediency, that it should not be achievable for these border patrols.
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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2014, 11:09:24 PM »
Were they beaten? I doubt it.

Do I care? Not really.

Am I sympathetic to Boat People? Not at all.

Have I got other issues to worry about? Yes.
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Offline berlitza

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2014, 11:31:06 PM »
If I was an asylum seeker with a family I  probably would  make up as much crap as has humanly possible in the belief that I would get what I wanted just to get shutup ( squeakiest wheel gets the most oil, bla bla, bla), so do i think they were bashed before being led back to where they came from = nope, that was the original question wasn't it  ;D
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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2014, 07:02:44 AM »
Interesting so much is taken by the words of these boat people......

And Sarah Hanson-Young is someone who believes every word, then her minions believe her.
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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2014, 07:07:10 AM »


I'm not going to comment on the beating claims, as there is always 2 side to every story, but in the big scheme of things who here is or has been affected directly by boat people?  I haven't, nor has anyone I know been?  I've never been able to understand why pollies need to make this their no. 1 election promise.  I can think of a ton of things that deserve a higher priority.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 07:50:27 AM by cm4x4nut »

Offline cm4x4nut

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2014, 07:51:56 AM »
If your post is missing, well the first round of cleaning has been done.

If you want the thread to stay open and to continue to participate in myswag, we all now how to behave.......otherwise, feel free to carry on  :police:
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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2014, 08:05:08 AM »
I've never been able to understand why pollies need to make this their no. 1 election promise.  I can think of a ton of things that deserve a higher priority.

Agreed.

The only reason why this has been beat up to this level is because of the Greens.  Essentially both Labor and the Liberals are pretty much aligned on this issue, it was only due to the strong influence of the Greens during the 1st Rudd government that brought about the dismantling of the Pacific Solution - which although wasn't perfect, overall wasn't a bad system.  That created major headaches for Labor and they never really were able to fix it.  I don't think Abbott will fix it either, it will probably be another 10 years or so before we see some rational solution evolve.

Cooler heads need to prevail here, and there is too much emotion and politics associated with this issue that cloud the decision making.  What needs to happen is get this out of the spotlight so that the relevant people (on both sides of the house) can focus on fixing the issue with long term solutions rather than the quick-fix stuff we are currently seeing.

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2014, 09:09:10 AM »
Asylum issues aside.....
The RAN have cameras.
Boardings are recorded.
Show me the footage please.
Then decide if our boys were innapropriate.
Requesting "illegal" entrants wear handcuffs to protect our military personnel is far from out of line.
As for the beating and verbal abuse, interview the officers. Conduct an investigation, but for the love
of all things sane ---- No trial by media.....
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Offline krisandkev

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2014, 09:25:50 AM »
I do feel sorry for the people.  If they are told how good we all have it in this great country then no wonder they risk so much to get here.  My wife has a lot to do with doctors from overseas and they all just cannot believe the welfare system here and how certain members of our community are given so much and yet they contribute nothing. (I am trying to be political correct here). In fact they say this country just cannot go on like this, something has change.  But how?   I think the thing about people who arrive by boat, and yes I agree, they are not illegal if seeking asylum is that they have been pushing the people who try and arrive here via the correct channels off or down the list. That does not seem fair.  The earlier point made about how we have been affected.  Maybe partly by the financial cost to us all.  (Well those who pay taxes.)   Yep, it is a big problem. I am glad I live here and don’t have to worry about trying to get to another country except for a holiday.  (Good to see one of the moderators getting involved as there have been some inappropriate comments in some thread recently.)
And about the claims about beaten by Navy, this morning they are now saying they were forced to put their hands on the hot engine as punishment!  And now are in hospital being treated. Now come on, this is total bull....    Kevin

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Offline gibbo301

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2014, 10:28:58 AM »
Were they beaten? I doubt it.

Do I care? Not really.

Am I sympathetic to Boat People? Not at all.

Have I got other issues to worry about? Yes.

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