Author Topic: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?  (Read 71731 times)

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Offline Mace

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2014, 11:10:39 AM »
The main issue is that the "boat people" tag is an easier target for pollies, when there are other  bigger immigration issues such as persons overstaying visa's.

Quote:

There are 13 times more illegal immigrants than there are asylum seekers in detention who have arrived by boat.
Figures obtained by The Advertiser from the Immigration Department and under the Freedom of Information Act show plane arrivals from the United States (5080) and Britain (3610) are near the top of the list of those in the country without a valid visa. China (8070), and Malaysia (4200) round out the top four.

There are 4446 detained boat people, the largest national grouping of which are Afghans (1422).

Three in four of the 58,400 visa overstayers came on tourist or holiday-working visas; one in seven arrived as students and one in 15 disappeared after being granted temporary residency.

Last year, only 6720 visa overstayers were sent home, most voluntarily, after applications to stay longer were rejected.

The US Government refused to answer questions about how it tried to stop visa overstayers but British Deputy High Commissioner Jolyon Welsh was critical of those who broke the rules.

Mr Welsh said only limited help was given to visa overstayers who were deported and had travel restrictions imposed. "My strong advice to British nationals is that they make sure they have the right visa for what they want to do and stay within the terms of that visa," Mr Welsh said.

Other details provided by the Immigration Department include:

MORE than half of the overstayers have called Australia home for five or more years.

ABOUT 20,000 have lived here a decade or more.

TWO in three have evaded immigration authorities for more than two years.

The figures do not include thousands of visitors who overstay their visas by up to a fortnight.

Refugee Council of Australia chief executive officer Paul Power said the figures helped put boat arrivals into context.

"The impact of boat arrivals on Australia's migration program is very small," he said.

"Political leaders continue to add to public fears about people arriving by boat but they make little or no effort to put the small number of asylum seekers entering Australia into any global context. Little attention is paid to the fact that so many asylum seekers who arrive by boat are found to have well-founded fears of persecution."

But Ethnic Communities' Council chairman Sam Afra said more should be done to round up visa overstayers and send them home. "It's shocking - to have one in three who have been here more than 10 years (suggests) something's wrong with the system," he said.

Mr Afra said illegal overstayers hurt everyone, including legitimate migrants and refugees, by taking jobs and housing, using public services and not paying tax.

Monash University migration expert Bob Birrell said tens of thousands of foreign students, who had expected to get residency here once their course was finished, were now scrambling to find ways to stay after immigration laws were tightened last year. "A surge in the number of students who have overstayed without any form of bridging visa is a reflection of their desire to extend their stay by hook or by crook," he said.

There were 10,600 more visa overstayers at June 30 last year than in 2005.

A spokesman for Immigration Minister Chris Bowen said less than 0.1 percent of visitors overstayed visas and many only for short times before leaving without immigration's involvement.

The 58,000 represents only around one fifth of those who overstay their visas, most being found and sent home within the first two weeks after the document expires.

End Quote:

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http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1389313069/14#14


« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 01:20:17 PM by Mace »
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Offline Bird

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2014, 11:22:16 AM »
Quote from: muzza01
If the claims are false, then we need to ensure these trouble makers are never processed
What ever happens to the *trouble makers* ... like the ones that caused $8million damage at Villawood... or the X Millions of damage at Christmas Island..

it goes very quiet after the initial "THEY BURNT IT ALL DOWN" reports... I bet ZERO happens to them, but either released into our society, or just stuffed back in with the rest instead of booted out of the country instantly never to return.. Micro chip them if you have to.

Do we really want that sort of person walking our so called safe streets ???
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Offline chester ver2.0

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2014, 11:39:31 AM »
Being someone who has been heavily involved personally in these Operations, Op Relex, Op Resolute and now Op Sovereign Borders  over man years there is much I cannot dievolge but let's just say, don't believe all what is sold by media or Government. Personal feelings aside and in reply to the direct accusation in the article, in my experience and everything I have seen all is every single Boat Person is treat well and with the utmost respect that every human deserves. This is briefed heavily prior to every boarding. Our sailors/my colleagues put up with much in return which again I have witness and managed. So, all I ask is to please appreciated and understand the un-winnable situation our Sailors, Soldiers and Airmen. They do their utmost with very little.

Interesting so much is taken by the words of these boat people......

I have a collegue that also works in this area as we are both in Safety they have consulted with me from time to time on various issues and summarising our confidential discussions i can totally concur with the above
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Offline muzza01

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2014, 11:47:57 AM »
What ever happens to the *trouble makers* ...
Do we really want that sort of person walking our so called safe streets ???

I dont know what happens to the trouble makers, vandals amd rioters. If I had my way their claims would never be processed and they would never reside in OZ.

Offline stephwoodall

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2014, 12:36:59 PM »
It is not unlawful to seek asylum in another country.

Australia is a signatory to the UN Convention on Human Rights.

"Until a request for refuge has been accepted, the person is referred to as an asylum seeker. Only after the recognition of the asylum seeker's protection needs, he or she is officially referred to as a refugee and enjoys refugee status, which carries certain rights and obligations according to the legislation of the receiving country"

"A refugee has the right to be free from penalties pertaining to the illegality of their entry to or presence within a country, if it can be shown that they acted in good faith- that is, if the refugee believes that there was ample cause for their illegal entry/presence, i.e. to escape threats upon their life or freedom, and if they swiftly declare their presence. This right is protected in Article 31:
The Contracting States shall not impose penalties, on account of their illegal entry or presence, on refugees who, coming directly from a territory where their life or freedom was threatened in the sense of article 1, enter or are present in their territory without authorization, provided they present themselves without delay to the authorities and show good cause for their illegal entry or presence. (Article 31, (1))"

The ONLY issue with the current asylum seekers is generally the issue of 'coming directly' but this does not prevent them seeking asylum. 

From a legal perspective its really really simple;

They are entitled to come here and seek asylum.
We are obliged to address those claims.
Where their claim for refuge is founded we are obliged to resettle them here or abroad.
If the claim is not founded they can be forcibly returned.
If they have not come here 'directly' then they may be subject to penalty (detention etc).

What is sad, and makes Australia laughable, is we go on and on about 'a fair go' and 'mates' and 'diggers' and all the good we do in the world like our great work our soldiers and UN people do and then we flush it down the toilet with the anti asylum seeker garbage.  They are a drop in the ocean in not only the world asylum issue but the Australian asylum issue.   

Australians are smarter than falling for the crap fed by the government and the media.  Think about it.  The only reason this all started was because John Howard (who I liked) grabbed onto it when his future looked bleak and he needed to push to the right to secure votes. Each government has kept it going to get voted in.  The media use it as a cash cow to sell their product.  Think about the questions the asylum seekers would have been asked by the media when they got back to Indonesia (Did they hand cuff you?.  Did they manhandle you?  How did you feel?)  Media then spins this - Asylum seekers handcuffed and assaulted".

So there are some things we cannot control because we agreed to do them (UN HR).
There are some things we can control (Penalties for those who don't come directly, where they are resettled).

The STUPID thing is this.  Australia has the power to deal with this simply, lawfully and cost effectively through our visa system.  Forget the issue of whether or not they came here directly and deal solely with the asylum issue but with a simple twist.

If you come here indirectly you will never be issued permanent residency.  You will be issued with a temporary visa while your claims are assessed and this will be revoked once your country is safe to return to.  So we meet our obligations under the UN conventions and remove the pull factors.  If you come here you will never be resettled here permanently - ever.  You might have kids here, buy a house, buy a car but once your country is safe, and lets face it most places sought their crap out in a reasonably short time, you are going home.  The ONLY benefit is that the kids they produce here would be Australian citizens but most would go with their parents.

Here is a link that shows the statistics of our immigration;

http://www.humanrights.gov.au/sites/default/files/content/racial_discrimination/face_facts/ftf_2012_web.pdf

Go to page 27 and check out the numbers and from where. 

In 2011 we took 29,000 from China and 26,000 from the UK.  In Queensland actual 'humanitarian' resettlement was 4% of the total.  26% was for family reunions and 44% for skilled migration.  26% simply came over from New Zealand.

If anyone thinks we are being flooded by 'illegals' you are being fooled. 

And I bet pounds to pennies that if us big tough Aussie myswaggers were in these peoples position we would fight like a thrashing machine - harder than the subjects of these media reports did.


Perfectly said.   :cup:

Offline BBwilly

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2014, 03:02:31 PM »
Were they beaten? I doubt it.

Do I care? Not really.

Am I sympathetic to Boat People? Not at all.

Have I got other issues to worry about? Yes.

Why bother posting then?

Offline Bird

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2014, 04:03:48 PM »
Were they beaten? I doubt it.

Do I care? Not really.

Am I sympathetic to Boat People? Not at all.

Have I got other issues to worry about? Yes.
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Offline dazzler

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2014, 04:26:00 PM »
Getting back to the actual question which went off in another direction.

If they were handcuffed and were non compliant then they would have been manhandled and probably quite heavily.  That would not mean a 'beating' but could easily be spun that way, by the detainee, the media or other interested groups.

I must have handcuffed 2000 people in 18yrs.  About 500 of those would have been non compliant.  Unless you are very very very good (an ex screw maybe) with a set of cuffs then you use physical strength, or rat cunning, to get control of them before getting the cuffs on.  My tactic was nearly always an arm bar, rotating the arm to bring the body forward, my leg in front of theirs to 'trip' them forward then 14stone on their back into the ground chest and face first.  Knee in the back and arm behind their back until they chose to comply.

And that my friends is as good as a beating. 


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Offline chester ver2.0

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2014, 05:03:57 PM »
Getting back to the actual question which went off in another direction.

If they were handcuffed and were non compliant then they would have been manhandled and probably quite heavily.  That would not mean a 'beating' but could easily be spun that way, by the detainee, the media or other interested groups.

I must have handcuffed 2000 people in 18yrs.  About 500 of those would have been non compliant.  Unless you are very very very good (an ex screw maybe) with a set of cuffs then you use physical strength, or rat cunning, to get control of them before getting the cuffs on.  My tactic was nearly always an arm bar, rotating the arm to bring the body forward, my leg in front of theirs to 'trip' them forward then 14stone on their back into the ground chest and face first.  Knee in the back and arm behind their back until they chose to comply.

And that my friends is as good as a beating. 


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Offline Sawed-Off

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2014, 07:22:51 PM »
And about the claims about beaten by Navy, this morning they are now saying they were forced to put their hands on the hot engine as punishment!  And now are in hospital being treated. Now come on, this is total bull....    Kevin

I agree that this is BS. However, I have no problem with such things being bandied about in the media. Hopefully it will reach the ears of some of these boat people and might deter them from trying. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it was part of the deterrent strategy.
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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #60 on: January 10, 2014, 08:46:33 PM »
Why bother posting then?

Why not, it's one of the freedoms I enjoy in this country.

I answered the Question... "Do I think they were beaten." My answer is = No.

Do I care if they were? = No.
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Offline AJC

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #61 on: January 10, 2014, 08:59:44 PM »
Wow! This is sounding like the Allan Jones radio show. Grow up.

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #62 on: January 10, 2014, 09:13:13 PM »
I reckon if I was in a situation even close to that of asylum seekers, I would be doing whatever it took to get myself and my family out.
As Australians and citizens of the world, the least we can offer is welcome refuge.
Enough of the Alan Jones, shock jock media tripe... try the shoe on the other foot!

Offline Barry G

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #63 on: January 10, 2014, 09:26:56 PM »
Do I think that naval personnel beat people?  "No"
Am I outraged that the Australian Gov't, through faux claim of the need for 'operational secrecy' makes such claims possible? "Totally"
Am I heartened by the number of Swaggers who can identify shock jock jingoism and call it for what it is? "Absolutely".
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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2014, 07:51:43 AM »
I would be doing whatever it took to get myself and my family out.
Including Country shopping???
Traveling through several "Safe" countries to get the land of milk and honey is not seeking Asylum.
Before anyone jumps down my throat for that, I don't have a problem helping anyone in need, I DO have a problem with being told how I'm going to help them.

One question,
Are the Asylum Seekers being persecuted in Indonesia?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 09:34:09 AM by Hairs »
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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2014, 08:02:57 AM »
......
Traveling through several "Safe" countries to get the the land of milk and honey is not seeking Asylum.
......

Bingo.....
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Offline stephwoodall

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #66 on: January 11, 2014, 08:05:54 AM »
Including Country shopping???
Traveling through several "Safe" countries to get the the land of milk and honey is not seeking Asylum.
Before anyone jumps down my throat for that, I don't have a problem helping anyone in need, I DO have a problem with being told how I'm going to help them.

One question,
Are the Asylum Seekers being persecuted in Indonesia?

If you are seeking asylum why not go to the best country in the world. Australia would not be the amazing place it is without all of the different cultures we have.

If you were an Afgan looking for the best for your family would you settle on Iraq or Pakistan or Indonesia?  No you would choose the best you could find.  Australia.

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Offline edz

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #67 on: January 11, 2014, 08:37:56 AM »
Then once here and under the freedoms given to you by the best place in the world .
 Some of you can then all start to congegrate in one suberb at a time till others feel intimidated and move out, then start turf wars with other ethnic groups that have done the same in their neigbourhoods and in no time  start turning the best place in the world into a cess pool of ethnic viorlence like where you came from in the first place ...
Gotta love multy culturalism and the challenges of getting a melting pot of people that have thousands of years of built in hatreds and intolerance to anything other then their cultural beleifs to live in harmony ...
But then again this is getting off track a bit to the original post == No I dont think they were beaten, just handled in the manner to which was needed under the circumstances at the time.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 08:43:25 AM by edz »
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Offline D4D

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #68 on: January 11, 2014, 09:01:53 AM »
And that my friends is as good as a beating. 

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #69 on: January 11, 2014, 09:13:03 AM »

Did our ancestors come here by boat and took over the country  ;D

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #70 on: January 11, 2014, 09:37:29 AM »
Did our ancestors come here by boat and took over the country  ;D

Mark

Good call Mark


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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #71 on: January 11, 2014, 09:43:48 AM »
Then once here and under the freedoms given to you by the best place in the world .
 Some of you can then all start to congegrate in one suberb at a time till others feel intimidated and move out, then start turf wars with other ethnic groups that have done the same in their neigbourhoods and in no time  start turning the best place in the world into a cess pool of ethnic viorlence like where you came from in the first place ...
Gotta love multy culturalism and the challenges of getting a melting pot of people that have thousands of years of built in hatreds and intolerance to anything other then their cultural beleifs to live in harmony ...
But then again this is getting off track a bit to the original post == No I dont think they were beaten, just handled in the manner to which was needed under the circumstances at the time.

Well said and so true.

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #72 on: January 11, 2014, 09:47:06 AM »
Did our ancestors come here by boat and took over the country  ;D

Mark

Not sure if the following came by boat or plane, born in London England though :-P


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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #73 on: January 11, 2014, 09:52:12 AM »
Did our ancestors come here by boat and took over the country  ;D

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #74 on: January 11, 2014, 09:58:30 AM »