Author Topic: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?  (Read 71789 times)

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Offline muzza01

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Claims from Asylum Seekers stating that they were handcuffed and beaten by the Navy before being towed back to Indonesian waters.  Now they are claiming that some of the asylum seekers were drowned.

I am happy for the boats to be towed back to Indonesia.  If the asylum seekers need to be handcuffed or man-handled so be it.

I find it annoying that The Indonesian Government can detect any boat coming in to their waters but can't detect any that are leaving their waters.

What do you Swaggers think?

Offline briann532

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2014, 07:43:10 AM »
Firstly lets clarify something......
They are entering illegally. This makes them lawbreakers.
If they truly seek asylum, there are legal avenues to take.
They break the law to jump the queue.
They pay lots of money to get a place on the boats.

If you dont like our navy officers protecting themselves, try somewhere else.
I hear Singapore's lovely this time of year........

We offer support to those in need, just don't cheat to try get it. Then complain when handcuffed.
If you want club med, get a job, earn money and call a travel agent.

Sadly another glorified media hype to feed the lefties....
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Offline Alan Loy

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2014, 07:50:46 AM »
Does this have anything to do with Campertrailers?  ???

The undue attention the whole boat people issue brings is an embarrassment, political and hardly likely to make this forum a better place!  :-[

Offline cm4x4nut

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2014, 07:58:28 AM »
Happy to let this stay for the moment. It has been posted in the correct section.

Please be aware with what you are posting though as this topic WILL be sensitive to some and has the potential to go south very quickly. Keep it clean and no personal attacks please.
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Offline allan.kidd

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2014, 08:06:50 AM »
I think this is a camper trailer forum
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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2014, 08:09:13 AM »
Does this have anything to do with Campertrailers?  ???

I think this is a camper trailer forum

We have always permitted all types of conversations in the "General" section provided they do not run off the rails.......
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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2014, 08:19:54 AM »
The Billion + $$ of our tax money given to the mob up north and the deal to stop the boats seems to have been forgotten by our pollies and the little chest beater neighbours ..
Its in the Indo's pollies best interests to whip up a controversy again against Australia [ call it pay back for getting booted out of East Timor ]. ...Makes for a sensational propaganda story to say big bad Aussies drowned and beat poor boat people ..
As if the Indo's give a rats about them anyway....
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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2014, 08:23:02 AM »
I just checked the 1st page of this section, over half the threads have nothing to do with Camper trailers !!!

Personally I struggle to understand how people can fly into Indonesia and then board a boat and be legitimate refugees. Especially from countries like srilanka, if its an opressive regime lets address that, stop playing sport with them etc.

When the camps in other parts of the worn torn world are overflowing because there is nowhere for the displaced persons to go I think it's tragic.
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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2014, 08:27:34 AM »
Does this have anything to do with Campertrailers?  ???

I think this is a camper trailer forum

To Alan and Allan,
If it offends you both that much I will get the mods to lock it up otherwise if the topic doesn't interest you, don't read it and don't post a reply.

It has as much to do with Camper Trailers as these top six General discussion threads (no offence to the OPs) That is why it is called General Discussion

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« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 08:29:28 AM by muzza01 »

Offline achjimmy

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2014, 08:29:40 AM »
If your looking for Indonesia's complicity in this think about this.

Look at the distance from Dili East Timor to Darwin, then find how many repressed Timorese made it out on boats  during Indonesia's control.

Then look at the starting point within Indonesia and the distance that the current boats are traveling from, and Indonesia can't stop them???
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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2014, 08:36:00 AM »
Firstly lets clarify something......
They are entering illegally. This makes them lawbreakers.
If they truly seek asylum, there are legal avenues to take.
They break the law to jump the queue.
They pay lots of money to get a place on the boats.

If you dont like our navy officers protecting themselves, try somewhere else.
I hear Singapore's lovely this time of year........

We offer support to those in need, just don't cheat to try get it. Then complain when handcuffed.
If you want club med, get a job, earn money and call a travel agent.

Sadly another glorified media hype to feed the lefties....
Couldn't agree more.
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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2014, 08:59:22 AM »
Couldn't agree more.

I agree more  ;D  We see it every day with people brought to town for eye tests and other stuff. They go from living in desert camps with no water or food to singles or family rooms with 3 meals and fresh fruit as needed with pool tables and foxtel playing Arabic news channels, well that's at Curtin Air Base. They have gardens that some tend to ad all air-conditioned.
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Offline dazzler

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2014, 09:08:30 AM »
It is not unlawful to seek asylum in another country.

Australia is a signatory to the UN Convention on Human Rights.

"Until a request for refuge has been accepted, the person is referred to as an asylum seeker. Only after the recognition of the asylum seeker's protection needs, he or she is officially referred to as a refugee and enjoys refugee status, which carries certain rights and obligations according to the legislation of the receiving country"

"A refugee has the right to be free from penalties pertaining to the illegality of their entry to or presence within a country, if it can be shown that they acted in good faith- that is, if the refugee believes that there was ample cause for their illegal entry/presence, i.e. to escape threats upon their life or freedom, and if they swiftly declare their presence. This right is protected in Article 31:
The Contracting States shall not impose penalties, on account of their illegal entry or presence, on refugees who, coming directly from a territory where their life or freedom was threatened in the sense of article 1, enter or are present in their territory without authorization, provided they present themselves without delay to the authorities and show good cause for their illegal entry or presence. (Article 31, (1))"

The ONLY issue with the current asylum seekers is generally the issue of 'coming directly' but this does not prevent them seeking asylum. 

From a legal perspective its really really simple;

They are entitled to come here and seek asylum.
We are obliged to address those claims.
Where their claim for refuge is founded we are obliged to resettle them here or abroad.
If the claim is not founded they can be forcibly returned.
If they have not come here 'directly' then they may be subject to penalty (detention etc).

What is sad, and makes Australia laughable, is we go on and on about 'a fair go' and 'mates' and 'diggers' and all the good we do in the world like our great work our soldiers and UN people do and then we flush it down the toilet with the anti asylum seeker garbage.  They are a drop in the ocean in not only the world asylum issue but the Australian asylum issue.   

Australians are smarter than falling for the crap fed by the government and the media.  Think about it.  The only reason this all started was because John Howard (who I liked) grabbed onto it when his future looked bleak and he needed to push to the right to secure votes. Each government has kept it going to get voted in.  The media use it as a cash cow to sell their product.  Think about the questions the asylum seekers would have been asked by the media when they got back to Indonesia (Did they hand cuff you?.  Did they manhandle you?  How did you feel?)  Media then spins this - Asylum seekers handcuffed and assaulted".

So there are some things we cannot control because we agreed to do them (UN HR).
There are some things we can control (Penalties for those who don't come directly, where they are resettled).

The STUPID thing is this.  Australia has the power to deal with this simply, lawfully and cost effectively through our visa system.  Forget the issue of whether or not they came here directly and deal solely with the asylum issue but with a simple twist.

If you come here indirectly you will never be issued permanent residency.  You will be issued with a temporary visa while your claims are assessed and this will be revoked once your country is safe to return to.  So we meet our obligations under the UN conventions and remove the pull factors.  If you come here you will never be resettled here permanently - ever.  You might have kids here, buy a house, buy a car but once your country is safe, and lets face it most places sought their crap out in a reasonably short time, you are going home.  The ONLY benefit is that the kids they produce here would be Australian citizens but most would go with their parents.

Here is a link that shows the statistics of our immigration;

http://www.humanrights.gov.au/sites/default/files/content/racial_discrimination/face_facts/ftf_2012_web.pdf

Go to page 27 and check out the numbers and from where. 

In 2011 we took 29,000 from China and 26,000 from the UK.  In Queensland actual 'humanitarian' resettlement was 4% of the total.  26% was for family reunions and 44% for skilled migration.  26% simply came over from New Zealand.

If anyone thinks we are being flooded by 'illegals' you are being fooled. 

And I bet pounds to pennies that if us big tough Aussie myswaggers were in these peoples position we would fight like a thrashing machine - harder than the subjects of these media reports did.

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Offline doc evil

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2014, 09:30:58 AM »

They PAY to seek asylum,

lob on OUR doorstep with designer cloths, laptops etc,

DEMAND gov't handouts and the right to have t shirts removed from shops because it is OFFENSIVE to them,

There is a process to enter Australia by the front door not sneaking in the back door, destroy all their documentation so the Australian gov't spends countless thousands trying to prove who they CLAIM to be as they are not true ASYLUM seekers......
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 09:32:45 AM by doc evil »
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Offline chookduck

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2014, 09:34:46 AM »
True aslyum seekers need to be helped - no doubt here.  However, as stated on the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugess (UNHCR) website, the terms asylum-seeker and refugee are often confused: an asylum-seeker is someone who says he or she is a refugee, but whose claim has not yet been definitively evaluated. National asylum systems (that is the Immigration Dept for Australia) are there to decide which asylum-seekers actually qualify for international protection. Those judged through proper procedures not to be refugees, nor to be in need of any other form of international protection, can be sent back to their home countries.

The definition of a refugee from the United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees is "A person who owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it.."  A lot of the people coming to Australia by boat are actually illegal immigrants and therefore by definition not entitled to refugee/asylum status.  A lot are 'economic refugees' which is fascinating considering they have paid for airfares to Indonesia and then a space on a boat - go figure.

Also, there is the third country rule, i.e., you normally cannot claim asylum or be a refugee in a third country.  If you 'flee' from Sri Lanka to Indonesia, you cannot claim asylum in Australia, you have to claim asylum in Indonesia.  The whole process is very complicated and wrapped in emotion, politics and money.  Politically, the Abbot government was elected with one of their policies of 'we'll stop the boats' - that's the Australian political side.  Also, this year sees elections in Indonesia - so the Indonesian Government making things hard for Australia will go down well from their local perspective.

But, we should never lose sight of the challenges that our Border Protection people undergo each day - Navy, Army and Air Force (yes they are all very much involved with Navy being on the tip), Customs, Immigration, AFP, non-government support like medical etc.  These people bear the brunt and largely go unrecognised.  The Armidale Patrol boat crews, along with Army/RAAF embarked security personnel should be praised for their efforts.

Am I close to this - yes, was intimately involved and the one thing I really learned was ignore the media reports - they are self serving and report (read here guess and analysis by assumption) only to sensationalize and sell papers and air time.

As to what Camper Trailer have to do with this - maybe we should set up a CT park in Central WA in summer and house the people there!
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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2014, 09:45:42 AM »
They PAY to seek asylum,

lob on OUR doorstep with designer cloths, laptops etc,

DEMAND gov't handouts and the right to have t shirts removed from shops because it is OFFENSIVE to them,

There is a process to enter Australia by the front door not sneaking in the back door, destroy all their documentation so the Australian gov't spends countless thousands trying to prove who they CLAIM to be as they are not true ASYLUM seekers......
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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2014, 09:58:51 AM »

They PAY to seek asylum,

lob on OUR doorstep with designer cloths, laptops etc,

DEMAND gov't handouts and the right to have t shirts removed from shops because it is OFFENSIVE to them,

There is a process to enter Australia by the front door not sneaking in the back door, destroy all their documentation so the Australian gov't spends countless thousands trying to prove who they CLAIM to be as they are not true ASYLUM seekers......


Good to see today tonight getting its message out.
A considerd, evidence based response

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2014, 11:22:58 AM »
Being someone who has been heavily involved personally in these Operations, Op Relex, Op Resolute and now Op Sovereign Borders  over man years there is much I cannot dievolge but let's just say, don't believe all what is sold by media or Government. Personal feelings aside and in reply to the direct accusation in the article, in my experience and everything I have seen all is every single Boat Person is treat well and with the utmost respect that every human deserves. This is briefed heavily prior to every boarding. Our sailors/my colleagues put up with much in return which again I have witness and managed. So, all I ask is to please appreciated and understand the un-winnable situation our Sailors, Soldiers and Airmen. They do their utmost with very little.

Interesting so much is taken by the words of these boat people......
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Offline Rob C

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2014, 11:30:45 AM »
Well the front door is always open for genuine Asylum seekers, no problems with that.
Finally there is someone prepared to shut the back door to the illegals.

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2014, 11:49:01 AM »
It is not unlawful to seek asylum in another country.

Australia is a signatory to the UN Convention on Human Rights.

"Until a request for refuge has been accepted, the person is referred to as an asylum seeker. Only after the recognition of the asylum seeker's protection needs, he or she is officially referred to as a refugee and enjoys refugee status, which carries certain rights and obligations according to the legislation of the receiving country"

"A refugee has the right to be free from penalties pertaining to the illegality of their entry to or presence within a country, if it can be shown that they acted in good faith- that is, if the refugee believes that there was ample cause for their illegal entry/presence, i.e. to escape threats upon their life or freedom, and if they swiftly declare their presence. This right is protected in Article 31:
The Contracting States shall not impose penalties, on account of their illegal entry or presence, on refugees who, coming directly from a territory where their life or freedom was threatened in the sense of article 1, enter or are present in their territory without authorization, provided they present themselves without delay to the authorities and show good cause for their illegal entry or presence. (Article 31, (1))"

The ONLY issue with the current asylum seekers is generally the issue of 'coming directly' but this does not prevent them seeking asylum. 

From a legal perspective its really really simple;

They are entitled to come here and seek asylum.
We are obliged to address those claims.
Where their claim for refuge is founded we are obliged to resettle them here or abroad.
If the claim is not founded they can be forcibly returned.
If they have not come here 'directly' then they may be subject to penalty (detention etc).

What is sad, and makes Australia laughable, is we go on and on about 'a fair go' and 'mates' and 'diggers' and all the good we do in the world like our great work our soldiers and UN people do and then we flush it down the toilet with the anti asylum seeker garbage.  They are a drop in the ocean in not only the world asylum issue but the Australian asylum issue.   

Australians are smarter than falling for the crap fed by the government and the media.  Think about it.  The only reason this all started was because John Howard (who I liked) grabbed onto it when his future looked bleak and he needed to push to the right to secure votes. Each government has kept it going to get voted in.  The media use it as a cash cow to sell their product.  Think about the questions the asylum seekers would have been asked by the media when they got back to Indonesia (Did they hand cuff you?.  Did they manhandle you?  How did you feel?)  Media then spins this - Asylum seekers handcuffed and assaulted".

So there are some things we cannot control because we agreed to do them (UN HR).
There are some things we can control (Penalties for those who don't come directly, where they are resettled).

The STUPID thing is this.  Australia has the power to deal with this simply, lawfully and cost effectively through our visa system.  Forget the issue of whether or not they came here directly and deal solely with the asylum issue but with a simple twist.

If you come here indirectly you will never be issued permanent residency.  You will be issued with a temporary visa while your claims are assessed and this will be revoked once your country is safe to return to.  So we meet our obligations under the UN conventions and remove the pull factors.  If you come here you will never be resettled here permanently - ever.  You might have kids here, buy a house, buy a car but once your country is safe, and lets face it most places sought their crap out in a reasonably short time, you are going home.  The ONLY benefit is that the kids they produce here would be Australian citizens but most would go with their parents.

Here is a link that shows the statistics of our immigration;

http://www.humanrights.gov.au/sites/default/files/content/racial_discrimination/face_facts/ftf_2012_web.pdf

Go to page 27 and check out the numbers and from where. 

In 2011 we took 29,000 from China and 26,000 from the UK.  In Queensland actual 'humanitarian' resettlement was 4% of the total.  26% was for family reunions and 44% for skilled migration.  26% simply came over from New Zealand.

If anyone thinks we are being flooded by 'illegals' you are being fooled. 

And I bet pounds to pennies that if us big tough Aussie myswaggers were in these peoples position we would fight like a thrashing machine - harder than the subjects of these media reports did.


Well put Dazzler,

Interesting to see how the current (now 12 years!) situation has been exploited politically, compared to the bi-partisanship when the Vietnamese boat people were ariving.
The difference was that Hawke had the intelligence to see that stiring up racism was a very dangerous ploy.

Australia takes approx 4% of world refugee intake and many see this as unreasonable.  We also generate 4% of the world's greenhouse gasses and this is described by many as insignificant.  Go figure...

Also interesting to compare the response to this issue with the attack on the calls for Aldi & Woolworths to withdraw their 'Est. 1788' t-shirts.

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2014, 11:57:40 AM »
I've got a few questions, so if someone in the know can answer them and educate me and anyone else who really knows bugger all about the system,,, I'd appreciate it.

When is someone considered an illegal immigrant?

If someone enters Aus as an asylum seeker, and they are granted refugee status what happens to them then?

If they are to live in Aus (granted permission etc), how is this done and how long does it take, do they get to choose where they live?

If they enter Aus as asylum seekers and are considered not genuine refugees what happens to them then?

How is this process of "deciding refugee status" done and how long does it take?

If they are found to be non genuine are they sent?

Who are the people in the detention centres?

Thanks in advance......


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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2014, 12:50:25 PM »
Well put Dazzler,

Interesting to see how the current (now 12 years!) situation has been exploited politically, compared to the bi-partisanship when the Vietnamese boat people were ariving.
The difference was that Hawke had the intelligence to see that stiring up racism was a very dangerous ploy.

Australia takes approx 4% of world refugee intake and many see this as unreasonable.  We also generate 4% of the world's greenhouse gasses and this is described by many as insignificant.  Go figure...

Also interesting to compare the response to this issue with the attack on the calls for Aldi & Woolworths to withdraw their 'Est. 1788' t-shirts.

Hawke was still getting drunk on union members fees when Fraser started accepting Vietnamese refugees, soon after the fall of sth Vietnam circa 75. where I lived we had a lot resettle, they received minimal assistance and started working very hard to establish themselves. they were very well established by the 80's. Hawkes contribution was to cry for the tinmen square massacre and cause an immigration headache with his promise to the then Chinese students in Australia.

I think the issue here for many is as above, we are getting played by Indonesia here they are the gateway for a large proportion. how many people do you hear complaining about the large Sudanese populations being settled in Blacktown, Melton and other areas?
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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2014, 02:00:35 PM »
I've got a few questions, so if someone in the know can answer them and educate me and anyone else who really knows bugger all about the system,,, I'd appreciate it.

When is someone considered an illegal immigrant?

If someone enters Aus as an asylum seeker, and they are granted refugee status what happens to them then?

If they are to live in Aus (granted permission etc), how is this done and how long does it take, do they get to choose where they live?

If they enter Aus as asylum seekers and are considered not genuine refugees what happens to them then?

How is this process of "deciding refugee status" done and how long does it take?

If they are found to be non genuine are they sent?

Who are the people in the detention centres?

Thanks in advance......

I'll open the batting and try to answer question 1 and some of 4, 5 and 6.

Those people who have not gained prior approval to enter Australia for the purpose of seeking asylum were referred to as irregular arrivals.

There are two classifications for irregular arrivals: Illegal Maritime Arrivals (IMAs; prior to 2013 the term "Irregular Maritime Arrivals" was used) and Non-IMAs (those arriving in Australian territory without a visa by non-maritime means, such as by air). In the 2011-12 period, the number of IMAs was greater than the number of Non-IMAs for the first time.  This is an important point, as you do not usually here about illegal arrivals other than 'Maritime Arrivals' - not as sensational as maritime arrivals for the media.

In 2013, the Minister for Immigration, Scott Morrison, directed his department to use the term "illegal maritime arrivals" instead of the previous term "irregular maritime arrivals". The application of the term "illegal" to asylum seekers is controversial, but legally correct.

An illegal immigrant is more commonly a person who overstays their visa. That is, people who enter the country legally by any means but remain there after the expiry or revocation of their visa.

Questions 4, 5 and 6. If an asylum seeker is not granted refugee status, as one of many options, Australia has the legal right to return them to their country of origin.  While the majority of asylum seekers may have a good case to become a genuine refugee, there are always the rotten eggs in the mix - i.e. genuine bad people and/or people who are not being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion (the criteria as set down to become a refugee by the UNHCR).  This is why there is a large effort in trying to establish the bona fides of all IMAs.  While Australia should and does accept genuine refugees, we do not want criminal/terrorist/non-genuine persons coming in.  Hence why there are so many departments involved in establishing IMAs actual credentials.  The time this takes, a point of debate mind you, is dependent upon many factors including availability of an IMA's personal documentation, eg passport, medical, family considerations, relatives in Australia etc etc etc.

A note here, you will get differing views from different parties as they all have an axe to grind.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 09:13:20 AM by chookduck »
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Offline doc evil

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2014, 02:20:12 PM »
Good to see today tonight getting its message out.
A considerd, evidence based response

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Evidence based.........well that's you opinion but bear in mind, I'm a lot closer to the issue than you think..........

as for today tonight et al, absolute carp and I don't watch 'em.

Have no issues with people trying to get true asylum however....................How is it that they can afford to PAY someone to SMUGGLE them into Australia?

Oh, and another thing, why is the majority of these supposed "seekers" male? I know as a family man, the first and formost for me would be sending my wife and kids away from coflict etc rather than myself........ ??? ??? ???
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Offline MDS69

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Re: Asylum Seekers claim to have been beaten by Navy - what do you think?
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2014, 02:22:12 PM »
I believe and I don't have the facts in front of me to support this but apparently there are more illegal immigrants in Australia who have arrived by air than by sea.

Now some questions of mine that hopefully someone can answer.

When these people arrive in Indonesia is it legally or illegally. If the latter how do they get through border control

When they leave their homeland don't they have to go through some sort of government controlled port who would be checking documentation or doesn't the government care.