Author Topic: another bent dual cab.......  (Read 63010 times)

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Offline toeball

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Re: another bent dual cab.......
« Reply #75 on: October 19, 2013, 07:41:15 PM »
If you get a GVM upgrade you can bend it quicker too !!!  >:D    ;D
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Offline scubasteve

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Re: another bent dual cab.......
« Reply #76 on: October 21, 2013, 07:12:03 AM »
.I didnt put airbags but placed Ironman Helper Springs just to compensate for slight sag
Hi Bushbandit , do they make (helper srings) that much of a difference ?
Cheers 
Stephen.

Offline bushbandit

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Re: another bent dual cab.......
« Reply #77 on: October 21, 2013, 07:44:49 AM »
Hi Bushbandit , do they make (helper srings) that much of a difference ?
Cheers 
Stephen.

Yes you can notice the difference straight away not only with the sag in the rear but with the handling and ride of the vehicle it amazing how much different the rear feels with these on best $110 ive spent.They are adjustable so if you take more than 400kg you just adjust the nuts up to 40mm i have set mine to 30mm to see how they go next week so i can report how effective they are.They are easy to fit aswell.All the guys who have them on the Triton Forum who haved used them on outback long journeys swear by them.
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Offline scubasteve

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Re: another bent dual cab.......
« Reply #78 on: October 21, 2013, 10:09:19 AM »
Good to hear they work well , thanks.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 01:44:24 PM by scubasteve »

Offline Metters

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Re: another bent dual cab.......
« Reply #79 on: October 21, 2013, 11:33:21 AM »

If you really want to bend your chassis then air bags certainly help but they are not essential.  This Hilux does not have any but it does have the one thing that is common with all cars that bend their chassis and that is far too much material too far behind the rear axle. 

When the rear wheels drop into a depression in the road, the chassis drops and is brought to a sudden stop by the bump rubbers.  Whatever is behind the rubbers wants to keep falling.    As it falls the forces generated increase and, I think from memory, it is by the square of the distance that everything is from the axle.  This means the chassis tries to pivot on the axle and lift the front. 

A split second later the wheels come up out of the depression resulting in the end of the chassis having to catch the falling material and heave it back up again.  Imagine what this is doing to the chassis.

The same will happen when the front end drops.  The chassis will go down and its rear end will go up. All the material behind the axle will have to be instantly pushed up placing tremendous stress on the chassis.

Whatever you put in your car will weigh something but it is only that weight while it is stationery.  Things change dramatically when it moves.

All of this will flex the chassis a little each time then it will return to its original shape.  It can only take so much of it though, particularly on rough roads, before metal fatigue sets in and the chassis bends permanently.

If anyone doubts this then try a simple experiment with a hammer.  Hold it by its head then extend your arm and the handle straight out in front of you.  Move your arm up and down a few times and note how it feels.  Now hold the hammer by the end of its handle and move your arm again.  You will very quickly feel a build up of stress in your wrist.  If you bring your hand holding the hammer down firmly into the open palm of your other hand, the head will want to keep going down and the end of the handle will most likely move a little in your hand. 

The weight (pull of gravity) of the hammer has not changed and the amount of material (mass) in it is still the same.  The only change is you have moved the greater part of its mass further away from your hand.   If you think of your open hand as a bump rubber, you will soon see what is happening to the overloaded end of a chassis.

A major problem with people loading utes is they do not understand the difference between mass and weight.  The claim that it was under GVM but the chassis bent therefore it must be a crappy design is often heard.  Take two identical dual cabs loaded in different ways for example.  One has four large adults and a good sized teenager in the middle of the back seat.  The fuel tank is full and the rest of the load needed to take it up to GVM is in the back with the heaviest items as far forward as possible.  The other has a 60 kg driver plus a full tank and the rest in the back.  One of those cars will be sitting low and level while the other will be on the bump rubbers at the rear yet both are at GVM. One driver will be smiling while the other will be complaining bitterly and rushing to the aftermarket industry to get the rear back up again.  One has all the material in it correctly distributed while the other definitely does not.

You simply can't load cars anyway you want to.  Everything must be distributed properly. If you can't get enough material into the front of a dual cab then you can't get it up to GVM without running the risk of damaging it.

You could argue that the manufacturer claims it will take 300 kg hanging off the end of the tow bar and that is a long way from the axle.  It will but there may well be a few restrictions.  The handbook in my Lux says a maximum of 180 kg on the ball but a WDH must be used for anything over 90kg.  Toyota is saying the chassis will need a lift but a WDH, which is a lever and not a spring, is the approved way to do it.  Others may so no WDH and you can fully load up the seats but don't put very much in the tub or tray. 

A WDH lifts the rear end and transfers weight to the front wheels just like the handles on a wheel barrow.  Heavier springs or air bags just lift the rear end up higher and don't transfer weight.

If you load your car and find it is not siltting up properly then you have done something wrong and it is time to make a few inquires to find out why.  The best place is the manufacturer's customer information service which will be on their web site.

The other issue is air bags.  Your springs compress at a predetermined rate.  X number of kgs will compress them one inch.  Double the weight and they will go down 2 inches.  Triple it and they compress 3 inches.  They will keep going down at that rate untill something stops them and that is the role of the bump rubbers.   They are the last line of defence before the chassis slams into the axle.  They will stop the chassis and do it very quickly because they are exponential springs, not linear springs.  They will become prorgessively harder as they compress and the more you try and compress them, the more they resist further compression. 

Your air bags are also exponential so installing them in your car is like sitting it on oversize bump rubbers.  If you have enough pressure in them, they can become very hard and really start resisting further downward movement of the chassis before it would normally reach the stock bump rubber.  This results in a better pivot point for the chassis as the back goes down and the front goes up and explains why a lot more air bag cars bend chassis than do those without them..

Heavier spings can do much the same.  The Lux in the photo would have to have heavier springs with all that stuff out the back and it has ended up with the worse case of chassis bending that I have ever seen.  They just get the chassis rocking up and down at each end a little earlier than it would on stock suspension.

Many will say their modified suspension is working fine and that may well be true but, if the car is not loaded corectly and is outside its design limits,  there is always the chance that major problems are slowly but surely developing and it will just take a combination of the right speed and the right type of road conditions to change everything from smooth sailing to disaster.



Offline Spada

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Re: another bent dual cab.......
« Reply #80 on: October 21, 2013, 01:21:22 PM »
excellant explination
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Offline DRB120

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Re: another bent dual cab.......
« Reply #81 on: October 21, 2013, 01:53:21 PM »
excellant explination

X2

I had a generally good understanding of this prior but your explanation put it in plain simple terms. Thanks
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Offline V8ute

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Re: another bent dual cab.......
« Reply #82 on: October 21, 2013, 02:30:58 PM »
That was well written. :cup:
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Offline Bird

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Re: another bent dual cab.......
« Reply #83 on: October 21, 2013, 02:35:32 PM »
Quote from: Metters

there was another thread a while back with a Britts I think it was - it was that rooted, that the chassis was held together with rope.. wish I could find the pics.
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Offline Footy Shorts Shane

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Re: another bent dual cab.......
« Reply #84 on: October 21, 2013, 02:38:51 PM »
Is there a general rule of thumb as to the age of these bent dual cabs? Post 2000, 2005, 2010 ? Or do the earlier vehicles also suffer?

Shane.
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Re: another bent dual cab.......
« Reply #85 on: October 21, 2013, 02:42:34 PM »
T minus 10, 9, 8, 7, 6 we have ignition, 4, 3, 2


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Offline Joff

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Re: another bent dual cab.......
« Reply #86 on: October 21, 2013, 03:05:29 PM »
Is there a general rule of thumb as to the age of these bent dual cabs? Post 2000, 2005, 2010 ? Or do the earlier vehicles also suffer?

Shane.

Vehicles have been suffering at the hands of idiots for decades. Your question would be more relevant if you framed it in terms of driver ignorance. Ie; when did we really start to see high numbers of ignorant people overstressing their dual cabs? After 2000, 2005, 2010?

The Navara above is a good example. If its not just inherently obvious that that thing is headed for world of pain, the panel gap between the cab and tub should be a blinding red flashing light. If its not then Shit like the hilux happens.
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Offline 02-SR5

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Re: another bent dual cab.......
« Reply #87 on: October 21, 2013, 03:55:52 PM »
There is just simply too much weight behind the axle, anybody with half a clue can see this.
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Offline rossm

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Re: another bent dual cab.......
« Reply #88 on: October 21, 2013, 04:01:52 PM »
"Vehicles have been suffering at the hands of idiots for decades."

But I reckon the growth of the off road accessories business has been a factor. We have all seen the utes and wagons where the first stop from the dealer was ARB or whoever and the cheque was blank. The next stop is sometimes a high end camper trailer dealer which means another 150kg plus on the towbar and then a couple of trips involving some dunes or decent corros ... And we have seen the results.

One of the good things about being on a small budget is that I haven't loaded the ute up with things that might look good or might be good to have. It has never stopped me going where I have wanted yet.

Offline Joff

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Re: another bent dual cab.......
« Reply #89 on: October 21, 2013, 06:28:30 PM »
"Vehicles have been suffering at the hands of idiots for decades."

But I reckon the growth of the off road accessories business has been a factor. We have all seen the utes and wagons where the first stop from the dealer was ARB or whoever and the cheque was blank. The next stop is sometimes a high end camper trailer dealer which means another 150kg plus on the towbar and then a couple of trips involving some dunes or decent corros ... And we have seen the results.

One of the good things about being on a small budget is that I haven't loaded the ute up with things that might look good or might be good to have. It has never stopped me going where I have wanted yet.

It could be argued that the two phenomenon are related. Back in the day it was harder for idiots to feel ready to tackle the vastness of the Aussie bush. Now, with the advent of all the whizzbangery, there are more people out there that maybe - I won't say shouldn't be Out there because I think we all have the right to be - but maybe before they head out they should look more toward an understanding of what they are doing rather than just pouring money into the latest catalogue.
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Offline Garry H

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Re: another bent dual cab.......
« Reply #90 on: October 21, 2013, 07:42:18 PM »
wow, the Hilux is certainly the worst picture I have ever seen,
the Navara originally posted was even worse than I thought when I went and had a look at it tonight after work, it was a 2006 and certainly had had a heap of $ thrown at it, nothing that I needed to have of it though, went with high hopes of getting something

Offline Steffo1

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Re: another bent dual cab.......
« Reply #91 on: October 21, 2013, 07:56:52 PM »
T minus 10, 9, 8, 7, 6 we have ignition, 4, 3, 2




Something not right with this photo even if it's not in Oz. Line up the green background. Fair enough. Could undulate.
Line up the fence. Once again could be OK.
Line up the brickwork. Does it match the fence step.
Shadow from the ute but not the camper????
 Can't tell but mighty suss!!!!
« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 08:01:16 PM by Steffo1 »
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Offline Metters

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Re: another bent dual cab.......
« Reply #92 on: October 21, 2013, 08:44:27 PM »
Is there a general rule of thumb as to the age of these bent dual cabs? Post 2000, 2005, 2010 ? Or do the earlier vehicles also suffer?

It is not only dual cabs Shane.  I know one man who bent his extra cab chassis with a slide on camper body.  Another extra cab bends it chassis in the DVD released last year titled " Desert Highways. The Roads of Len Beadell" by Lifestyle Video Productions in Melbourne..  It had a large slide on camper plus air bags and was travelling in a convoy on either the Gunbarrel Highway or the Gary Highway.

Single cabs are not immune to it either and it is not confined to the light weight Hilux /Triton size cars.  There was a DVD on Utube recently but it had been removed the last time I checked.  It showed an F250 tow truck in the US trying to drag a Defender out of a bog.  A Dodge 4wd pickup was assisting by pulling the front end of the Ford. The driver ran his lifting cable back from the top of the jib on his truck to the Landy.  When he started pulling the high jib acted like a giant lever on the back of the truck and lifted the front wheels well clear of the ground.  The chassis slowly bent badly just in front of the front hangers for the rear springs.

I saw exactly the same thing happen to an F100 tow truck as it tried to pull apart a tangle of old stock cars on the Sydney Showground speedway in the mid 1960s.  The back was levered down, the front went way up and the chassis bent nearly double in front of 25,000 cheering people.

If you push down the rear end of any chassis it will pivot on the axle and try and lift the front.  All chassis will have been designed to cope with the stresses involved in normal use with a correctly loaded car but not when the car is taken outside those limits.  Unfortunately that is very easy to do when you don't stop and think.  One common example is spare wheels.

I had a look at my Lux single cab today and noticed its stock size 32 kg spare is mounted under the chassis and up close behind the axle where it will cause the lowest possible downward force on the chassis behind the axle when the rear end drops down.  Only about 210 mm of it extends back behind the rear spring hanger. 

If I wanted to fit two wheels on the back, I have no doubt the after market industry would be able to supply me with a reliable dual wheel mounting kit that would attach somewhere on the rear of the tray of whatever. That would mean 64 kgs of wheels plus the kit sitting 3/4 of a metre further back behind the spring hanger [ not to mention the distance from the axle] and about one metre higher than the original wheel. 

Just imagine what that would do to the chassis and the whole handling dynamics of the car.

It would cost manufacturers a fortune to try and make their cars idiot proof and it would take them up into a price bracket that few would be able to afford.  I don't think the age of the car or the size of the cabin will make any difference.   There are people out there who could break an anvil if given the chance so what hope have the car manufacturers got? 

Offline Brumbypt

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Re: another bent dual cab.......
« Reply #93 on: October 21, 2013, 08:49:56 PM »
So whats the solution, ok dont overload in the first place, but what are people doing to fix their broken and cracked chassis??

Are some people strengthening chassis as part of their vehicle and trip preparation?

I see not everyone thinks of their chassis but are some ppl doing something before they brake and what are they doing, pics please.

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« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 08:53:05 PM by Brumbypt »
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Offline Metters

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Re: another bent dual cab.......
« Reply #94 on: October 22, 2013, 04:27:58 PM »
what are people doing to fix their broken and cracked chassis??

From what I have seen on the net, the usual thing seems to be weld the cracks etc and add strengthening plates to the chassis rails.  This will fix the immediate problem but may lead to long term ones.  Chassis are designed to flex to a certain degree.  Adding steel plates to one section could lead to cracks developing between the stiffened and the more flexible stock section.  So far I have not heard of anyone complaining about this but it is possible.

Quote
Are some people strengthening chassis as part of their vehicle and trip preparation?

If you have to do that then you really should sit down and ask yourself if you have bought the right car.  You hear people for exmple saying they are going to upgrade their Hilux.  Toyota already make an upgraded Hilux that they call a Landcruiser.  Ford make an upgraded Cruiser that they call an F250.  Isuzu make an upgraded F250 that they call a 3 ton truck.  I am sure if you wanted to carry 10 tons out into the desert then MACK could fix you up with something suitable.  There is a vehicle out there to do every job so why not buy the right one in the first place? 

The way to go is to decide what you want to take and where then find a suitable car.  Don't buy the car then try and work out what you can do with it.

Do not believe all of this BS that you read in magazines about having to build a "tough Outback tourer" if you want to see this country.  Since I retired 11 years ago my wife and I have toured extensively through seven of the central deserts in a stock standard Hilux.  Some of the tracks we have driven over have been Len Beadell roads.  Everywhere we have gone we have been surrounded by local people in their standard cars.  Our car is usually around 200 kg under GVM.  To save weight we don't have a bull bar or tow bar.  We carry only one spare wheel but have a couple of tubes and enough tyre repair equipment to fix holes up to 80 mm long in the sidewalls.  We don't take anything with us that is not absolutely necessary and we take as long as is necessary to drive carefully through rough sections of tracks.

So far the car has not stopped and we have not broken anything.  One day something might break but it will not be something that we could be blamed for because of the way we have treated the car.

It can be done if you put a little thought into it.









Offline Joff

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Re: another bent dual cab.......
« Reply #95 on: October 22, 2013, 04:52:05 PM »
 :cup: For Metters. A man with a brain  :cheers:

Cept the bit about an Ef2fiddy being an uprade on a Cruiser  >:D That's clearly not correct  8)
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Offline DaveR

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Re: another bent dual cab.......
« Reply #96 on: October 22, 2013, 05:09:35 PM »
:cup: For Metters. A man with a brain  :cheers:

Cept the bit about an Ef2fiddy being an uprade on a Cruiser  >:D That's clearly not correct  8)

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Offline Metters

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Re: another bent dual cab.......
« Reply #97 on: October 22, 2013, 07:11:05 PM »
Cept the bit about an Ef2fiddy being an uprade on a Cruiser  >:D That's clearly not correct  8)

I was thinking more about size than anything else.  Would a Unimog be any better or have I bombed out there as well?   ;D

Offline D4D

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Re: another bent dual cab.......
« Reply #98 on: October 22, 2013, 07:12:54 PM »
Have you ever seen Metters and Robin Miller in the same room...
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Offline rossm

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Re: another bent dual cab.......
« Reply #99 on: October 22, 2013, 08:12:40 PM »
Have you ever seen Metters and Robin Miller in the same room...

as anyone ever seen robin miller in a Toyota?