Author Topic: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?  (Read 18125 times)

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Offline MDS69

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #50 on: April 08, 2013, 09:05:59 AM »
Did anyone see the article in yesterdays Sunday Telegraph in Sydney about a state gun lobby or shooting association president and his deputy (can't remember which state) going through the courts at the moment for offences related to shooting, something like trespassing and other offences. They have had their firearms licenses suspended. I don't have the paper in front of me to quote word for word.

Offline jr

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #51 on: April 08, 2013, 09:50:27 AM »
They claim the offences were by someone else
Find it a bit tough to believe these guys would risk this sort of publicity for a goat?

Most against this hunting in Nat Parks think its going to happen in popular east coat beach tourist areas or the Ski fields.

If anyone has a link to State map with national parks on it the will see massive areas where almost no one goes (including NPWS staff) and are rife with feral animals and weeds. NPWS have far too much land to manage properly and without this type of assisted management they would be in safer hands being left as grazing country.

Offline achjimmy

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #52 on: April 08, 2013, 09:55:52 AM »
Did anyone see the article in yesterdays Sunday Telegraph in Sydney about a state gun lobby or shooting association president and his deputy (can't remember which state) going through the courts at the moment for offences related to shooting, something like trespassing and other offences. They have had their firearms licenses suspended. I don't have the paper in front of me to quote word for word.


http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/senior-hunting-official-charged-20130406-2hd2e.html#

And if guilty they should be penalized. But as for disbanding the whole program well. Do we remove the police force or Aust Customs because some officers have been found guilty of criminal acts?
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Offline MDS69

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2013, 12:31:10 PM »
Did anyone see the article in yesterdays Sunday Telegraph in Sydney about a state gun lobby or shooting association president and his deputy (can't remember which state) going through the courts at the moment for offences related to shooting, something like trespassing and other offences. They have had their firearms licenses suspended. I don't have the paper in front of me to quote word for word.

Sorry for the record I am not against access to NP's for licensed shooters involved in pest eradication and I am not a shooter either.

Offline deldridg

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #54 on: April 08, 2013, 05:17:30 PM »
OK, so I've copped a bit of a nailing for typing and running, or at least appearing to - fair cop. Apologies, but I have had my 1 and 3 yr olds today (Mon) and we were out yesterday, no time for sitting at the computer. Most of us have kids so hopefully someone will appreciate the extent to which they, especially at this age can occupy *all* your time!  :)

As mentioned in another comment of mine, there are no easy answers to these questions and we live in an imperfect world - that is true. Not everyone is going to do the right thing regardless of law etc. In addition, I confess to having little deep understanding of the legislation and perhaps even less of the group at nohunting.com.au. Perhaps had I not jumped in so quickly and actually read everything on their site, I might have had a different approach. My bad. So there  ;D

However - it is a legitimate debate which may to some extent affect members of this group more than the average Joe.  As for me being the OP - frankly, who gives a #$@ what I think? As the OP, my views have no more/less legitimacy than those of anyone else other than I threw something up for discussion. Sadly it does look like I ran in, slapped someone on the arse and ran away... Apologies. It's great to have other views and I hope to get a more balanced perspective (when I have time to go through all the posts!). I try to be open to all sides, for what it's worth.

There was a memorable event which has probably helped shape my views - especially now as a dad - that involved some exposure to a potentially threatening gun/alcohol situation camping at Abercrombie Nat Pk some years ago (near Oberon). Some of you may have been there - you'd certainly remember this event.

Anyway, a bunch of blokes turned up at our campsite after midnight in utes with pigdogs, guns and stacks of grog (most of these blokes were pissed). All the kids in our group were asleep at this time and the boys were having a few and telling silly stories around the campfire as they arrived. These blokes (about 7 or so) imposed themselves on us and tensions rose fairly quickly, especially when one of them decided to wander through our campsite and wake up all the wives/kids shouting abuse. About 2-3 hrs later, they finally drove away firing their guns as they did.

At face value, probably not a terribly dangerous/exciting event but there were some fairly shaken dads and the general view that had things escalated - who knows? I'm assuming they were shooting illegally, so this debate is probably less about them in honesty, but one can't help forming the view that had there been no guns there at all, perhaps a broken nose and a few black eyes were the worst that could have happened (unless some pissed off idiot drove through our tents...).

How would you apprehend such blokes anyway? You'd have to assume there was a possibility they'd defend themselves with whatever means they had available (including a booze-diminished intellect). For interest's sake, how would law abiding hunters deal with them, given that they would be unimpressed by such delinquency?

So where does this leave me? At this point I'm still trying to form a more balanced view - and yes, I have enjoyed shooting on many occasions, including a few rounds of an AK47, a 44, shotties etc. It's a good feeling to hold such power...

Hope I've somehow restored some OP dignity and fairness! For me at this point - maybe I'll say the jury is out on this one... It is good to hear other sides to it I must say.

Cheers and thanks,
Dave (...perhaps a little more confused than convinced now...)

« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 06:00:00 PM by deldridg »
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Offline Dice

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #55 on: April 08, 2013, 06:01:40 PM »
 Hi Dave,
       Did you report the incident to police and take note of any rego numbers,this is how I would of handled it as I have done in the past. As a licensed hunter I take a dim view of anyone doing the wrong thing when my hobby is put at risk. Myself and a couple of mates fronted a group of young blokes out spotlighting of the roads around Bacchus Marsh a few years ago ended up in court with the one bloke who had a licence losing it and copping a decent fine as well as the others.
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Offline GanG

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #56 on: April 08, 2013, 06:07:09 PM »
Quote
Anyway, a bunch of blokes turned up at our campsite after midnight in utes with pigdogs, guns and stacks of grog (most of these blokes were pissed). All the kids in our group were asleep at this time and the boys were having a few and telling silly stories around the campfire as they arrived. These blokes (about 7 or so) imposed themselves on us and tensions rose fairly quickly, especially when one of them decided to wander through our campsite and wake up all the wives/kids shouting abuse. About 2-3 hrs later, they finally drove away firing their guns as they did.

A terrible story mate but that's not hunting, and not anyone that I have ever encountered in a lifetime of hunting on public and private land.

The world has more than its fair share of assholes, some drive cars and 4x4 too............what those blokes did is pig ignorant and illegal, but they are not typical by any means. Idiots like that deserve to be prosecuted and clearly should not have access to firearms, but if I was a betting man its unlikely they were licensed in the first place, and they are not the type of folks that will jump the hoops required for a NP permit.

re the game council officer that has been charged, that does not always equate with guilty in every instance, and if he is actually found guilty then he deserves the full wrath of the law, but it does not mean the rest of us are criminals, nor that the concept is inherently bad, just that one bloke has let his position go to his head and like many other public officials has been doing the wrong thing to feather his own nest.

This is the great problem with the lack of accountability these days..........the assumption that if 1 bloke does the wrong thing it must be bad and banned, rather than saying what he did was a crime and he deserved to be punnished.

*climbing off soap box in search of another beer* care to join me? :)
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Offline itchvet

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #57 on: April 08, 2013, 06:07:55 PM »
Petty naive view in my opinion. I am not really an avid hunter however I do work in a compliance role that over laps into NP's and State Forrests. I also have NPWS compliance powers.

I have seen legal shooting in state Forrests have some positive impacts.

Firstly you are kidding yourself if you think hunting and shooting in NP's in not occurring now. It has been forever and the people who do it are taking risks and are uncontrolled. They also have a lot at stake and are willing to do whatever it takes to evade detection and capture in many instances.

Legal shooting is controlled, numbers are limited and the activity is confined to certain areas. The guys that undertake this have to be above board at all levels and hold specific licences and certifications. If they stuff up they loose their gear and access.

What has occurred locally, Bathurst and Lithgow, is that the incidence of illegal hunting has decreased with the introduction of the enthusiasts. This is because there are now more eyes in the Forrest and these enthusiasts report the illegal hunters to authorities to protect their sport. Previously there were no enthusiasts and no eyes in the Forrest.

I don't agree with the policy, but all of the scare mongering is miss guided, Because the illegal hunters are going to be there and probably in greater numbers with or without the introduction of legal hunting.

A well controlled system of legal hunters keeping and eye on things may not be all doom and gloom, and to be honest you are unlikely to notice they are about, much the same as you don't see the illegal ones that have been doing it for a millennium now.

Jas

Quote, scaremongering ect, ect ? Really ? As an ex military type, I know how far a 7.62 mm round travels before it's kinetic energy is spent. How many alleged 'hunters' know how far their rounds will travel before they are no longer a threat ? How can any such 'hunter' be sure there are no humans in the direct path of their expended round ?
In the U.S. they have designated hunting seasons, wherein highly visible clothing is worn by hunters, despite this fact, there are reports every year of hundreds of people,( including the hunters themselves of being SHOT). so CLEARLY, FOR ANYONE TO CLAIM NO ONE WILL BE HURT IS LUDICROUS and a fallicy.
I have seen no operational suggestions of how this sytem is supposed to work, it's as if the public is simply to accept what they are told.
How come every firearm firing range in Australia has rules of operation and flags to warn the public of such activities, where here again, we see nothing.
How are campers or bushwalkers to know they will not be shot by a round from one of these alleged safe 'hunters' ?
I myself AND family, have been on one occasion in the path of such rounds whilst encamped and have no desire to ever be in such a position ever again.
Rifles and indiscriminate rounds flying thru bushland and campers/walkers ect DO NOT MIX, never have and never will.
In closing, if this suggestion ever gets the green light, I'd be writting a declaration to the members of parliament who passed it, that I'd be holding them personaly accountable if ever any of my family were the recipients of such a round.

Offline Sawed-Off

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #58 on: April 08, 2013, 06:20:22 PM »
In closing, if this suggestion ever gets the green light [snip]

To the best of my knowledge, it already has the green light. It's just in a holding pattern.
Matt.

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Offline GanG

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #59 on: April 08, 2013, 06:31:01 PM »
yup scaremongering...........Victoria has had public land hunting for years and the safety record is excellent, better than AFL, NRL, fishing and many other sports for injuries and fatalities per man hour participated...............come and spend Saturday arvo in my emergency department and tell me that football is good for you :)

3 accidental shootings in 55 years in Vic forests..........I have personally cared for that many young men dying from injuried sustained falling off their bikes!

The risk is low and the proposed plan is well designed if you care to look at it in detail with an open mind. As for ex-military types  I know a bloke who was a pay clerk in the army and he was lucky to know what end was the dangerous one, just being ex military does not make you a firearms expert.

Good luck making a politician accountable :laugh:
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Offline hoytshooter

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #60 on: April 08, 2013, 07:42:31 PM »
And this is why i hunt with a bow .........
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Offline laf

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #61 on: April 08, 2013, 08:15:26 PM »
pay homage (licence) and all is well, other wise you are a ???? . :police:

Offline qlddsl

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #62 on: April 08, 2013, 08:19:53 PM »
? As an ex military type, I know how far a 7.62 mm round travels before it's kinetic energy is spent. How many alleged 'hunters' know how far their rounds will travel before they are no longer a threat ? How can any such 'hunter' be sure there are no humans in the direct path of their expended round ?


Any round (bar a 50cal) would be lucky to travel 100 meters before its stopped by a tree. A bullet from a true hunter won't be the one that accidentally hurts/kills someone, it will be the one from a drunken redneck shooting signs and cans. Many years of hound hunting and stalking deer in VIC I was lucky to see anyone on the bush tracks ( not including other hunters) let alone in the the scrub. Who else in their right mind would be bush pre dawn in near freezing weather
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Offline macca

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #63 on: April 08, 2013, 08:37:10 PM »
Who else in their right mind would be bush pre dawn in near freezing weather

You got it, qlddsl

Offline deldridg

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #64 on: April 08, 2013, 08:54:21 PM »
Gees - a day with the kids and I'm stuffed. Finally I've got a moment to read and respond...

No wonder my ears were burning the last few days.  ;D

G'day deldridg. You don't think the copper might have been justifying the operation? "Yeah mate, we've caught heaps. It's been TOTALLY worth it....". You also claim to not be a total wowser, but i dunno whether you noticed the website says NO hunting, not safe hunting, or more careful hunting, or less unneccessary hunting.

Naah - the copper seemed a bit more level headed than that. As for the website - I confessed earlier to not having read it closely - agree this is shocking form, even by my dodgy standards...  (I'll claim baby brains on this one!)  ;D

I wonder if every time he gets breath tested and asks the copper how many DUI's they've caught, he feels politically motivated to go to a anti-drink driving rally?...
'Cause as we ALL know, heaps and heaps more people die every year from drink driving than firearm accidents.......

Yep - that's me Boxhead. Nice one. Both poignant and witty but I'm smiling... :)

I would suggest the OP has concerns over the "illegal" hunters..........

One cannot blame him for having concerns over people who blatantly ignore the laws, running around with guns near campers.
You only have to have a look at the number of generator threads and noisy neighbour threads to realise how ignorant some people are.
Take one of these numpties who has no care for others, give them a firearm with no regard for safety law or license and its a recipe for disaster.

etc.

Thanks Brian - see an earlier post which perhaps explains an influencing situation that I've been through (not to mention being the target of an armed hold-up as a 19yr old in Sydney; losing a family friend to a rifle cleaning accident in his house and a few other scrapes here and there).

My views are being further shaped by the contributions to this thread and it's great to have good honest and mostly, positive conversation as with anything, it's very easy to be guided by your own limited experience and then form one-sided views - as I've probably done here.

Yes, the thought of illegal hunting, especially mixed with booze in proximity of my family scares the carp out of me. Perhaps we'll never eradicate this and maybe - just maybe, with the right legislation and resources to make sure legal hunting can be integrated safely with NP use, then illegal hunters will decline. There are a lot of maybes there and sitting above all of this is the general idea that more firearms = more issues, regardless. Is that a fair position??

And hence your true colours are shown, so put up an argument about gun control and march with the Anti gun coalition but don't go hiding behind another agenda, and making incorrect assumptions about hunting in NP. Again I have no issues with people who have an argument against firearms, it's there right do so.

Chartlon Heston was a nutter but he was also rigth another armed defender could have prevented the massacre, ( not child thats ridulous) same as an armed person could have prevented Port Arthur, what also could have prevented Port Arthur was if the police had acted on the advise of a gun store owner who reported Martin Bryrant for trying to obtain an firearm and who was reported to be in an "agitated" state!  After port Arthur beside the squilions spent acquiring guns we were promised reform on mental health but didn't get that, hence the phsyopathic loons are still out there !

Remember the biggest massacre by a  pshyopath  in the US was not committed by a gun but by a guy with a tip truck, fertilizer & fuel !!

OK achjimmy - your assertion is not 100% correct about me and the anti gun mob mate but maybe I can't blame you for saying it. I too enjoy a bit of shooting and am not too bad a shot (most of my uncles are hunters but all shoot vermin on properties, and very successfully too).

Hopefully I've been a bit clearer on my position (which is of little relevance to anyone) in other rubbish I've spouted on this thread of mine.  ;D

------------------

So in my mind the debate seems to boil down to a few points as follows (off the top of my head):

  • a lot of normal people enjoy shooting as a legitimate form of recreation (this I perfectly understand),
  • a lot of people are prepared to do this illegally in places they shouldn't be (I've witnessed this myself),
  • there are limited resources to police/enforce the law as it applies to them so we can assume it will continue,
  • however, properly regulated and managed legal hunting in concert with harsh penalties for abuse could effectively reduce such illegal activities,
  • there is confusion (I have it) as to the actual proposals at hand to open NPs to hunting, (so I for one will now get up to speed),
  • there is the presiding concern about numbers of guns in a society and the relationship to the number of serious issues (I've spent enough time in the USA),
  • however, the extent to which these proposals will feed a negative trend is perhaps unknown (at least to me) and may even have a net positive,
  • perhaps the main issue is in the effective governing and well resourced policing of hunting such that my family and I can venture out into the bush with the confidence that we know what's going on and aren't going to be endangered by a well intentioned legal bullet (or arrow etc.). Clearly we can't do much about the illegal ones...

The sticking point really has to be the resourcing of this all. I have had a number of related conversations with a lot of NPWS field ops who have grave doubts about the legislation, given the already harsh cuts to their resources and what it will mean to them.

So there it is - my views are evolving and hopefully this thread has added some value! Thanks for reading this far...  would have loved to respond to everyone but am v. time poor.

Finally...

...*climbing off soap box in search of another beer* care to join me? :)

Damned straight mate - I'd be there in a flash. Amazing how 2 kids (= total 24kg) can trash a bloke in a single day!  :cheers:

Cheers,
Dave

PS. As far as I can remember, the blokes who turned up to hooliganise our camp those years ago were 'introduced' to the police. Not sure what happened to them.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 09:35:43 PM by deldridg »
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Offline Snow

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #65 on: April 08, 2013, 09:22:31 PM »
This is me on private property.   8)

I would never do this in a NP unless I was engaged by NPWS to do so, which is something I would never do anyway. Besides by the time they had taken you through their WHS briefs and other briefs the sun would be going down.  ;D
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Offline GanG

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #66 on: April 08, 2013, 09:43:05 PM »
Quote from: snow
I would never do this in a NP unless I was engaged by NPWS to do so, which is something I would never do anyway.

Entirely your call to exercise the right or not..........but don't forget the other guy that might want to :)

Maybe my perspective is entirely screwy on this subject having lived, 4 wheeled, hunted, camped, bushwalked, and enjoyed life in the outdoors with the wife and 4 kids, all in a state where it is standard operating procedure to hunt public land, and do so without the embuggerance of bureaucrats and meddlers to a great extent.

<edit to correct myself>
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 09:46:08 PM by GanG »
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Offline Snow

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #67 on: April 08, 2013, 09:57:54 PM »
Entirely your call to exercise the right or not..........but don't forget the other guy that might want to :)
I suppose i am spoiled with private property to roam on so for the shooter who doesn't and has the opportunity to help NPWS out I am for that. I would expect NPWS would close a park before a shoot in any case....i would hope.

 
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 10:03:59 PM by Snow »
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Offline Boxhead 71

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #68 on: April 09, 2013, 10:03:10 PM »
G'day again deldridg. Nice response mate. If, after all your research and investigation, you still come to the same conclusion, well, I don't think anyone on here will knock you for having an informed opinion mate.
As for 24 kg's of kids; i've got around 100 kg's of 'em. 17 yr old and 15 yr old. It gets worse. Maybe not physically, but psychologically! ;D
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Offline GanG

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #69 on: April 09, 2013, 10:16:57 PM »
Quote from: snow
I suppose i am spoiled with private property to roam on so for the shooter who doesn't and has the opportunity to help NPWS out I am for that. I would expect NPWS would close a park before a shoot in any case....i would hope.

Its all in the frame of reference I guess.........I would still make the observation it is public land, and you are not helping out the NPWS, you are exercising your chosen lifestyle as you should rightly entitled to do as a law abiding citizen of this country. :)
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Offline Bill

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #70 on: April 10, 2013, 06:12:52 AM »
And this is why i hunt with a bow .........
Me too.
But not on any State Land or National Park in Qld because it is still illegal...
Bill
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Offline achjimmy

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #71 on: April 10, 2013, 07:27:02 AM »
But there's been grumblings about controlling them. And with incidents like the following its hard to argue against it, again the dickhead element or people not taught to respect them.

 Last year I was at a kids AFL match up in the mountains, field surround by bush with homes behind that. A few Arrows started appearing or being found around, it was bizarre because no body saw any turn up and I  still wasnt convinced they wernt there from the day before. One was found n the playing field and a couple of kids swore it wasn't there in first quarter!
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Offline deldridg

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #72 on: April 12, 2013, 07:33:02 AM »
G'day again deldridg. Nice response mate. If, after all your research and investigation, you still come to the same conclusion, well, I don't think anyone on here will knock you for having an informed opinion mate.
As for 24 kg's of kids; i've got around 100 kg's of 'em. 17 yr old and 15 yr old. It gets worse. Maybe not physically, but psychologically! ;D

Hi mate - cheers and thanks. As it turned out, I ended up not attending the rally and decided to catch up with a mate for lunch instead!  :D

Did anyone from here go? Was it the usual dreadlock mob or perhaps more representative of the community? (PC caveat... nothing wrong with dreadlocks - hopefully my comment will be self-evident).

While my views have certainly moved somewhat on the complete banning of hunting in NPs as such, I'm almost 100% certain that there will be insufficient attention and resources allocated to ensuring a good overall outcome. One thing that has been highlighted is the scale of illegal hunting activity and hopefully something will change on that front, whatever policies are adopted.

It was great to get different views and next time I'll be a bit more read up and balanced before launching into a "thou shalt not" thread!  ;D

As for 100kg's of youthful force - best of luck mate. At least now you won't have to Google anything - they've already thought through all the answers... It's all ahead of me, and mine are both redheads with wills to match...

Cheers and off to dream about our next camping holiday!
Dave
17' All Terrain Campers CT towed by a 2007 Pathy ST-L, 2.5 TD, Steinbauer Chip, Bilstein shocks + Dobinson springs (2" lift) + PolyAir bags, 16x7 King steel rims, Cooper ST Maxx, ARB bar, X-Ray lights, 12,000lb Avenger winch, TJM bash plates. Time to go bush!!