Author Topic: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?  (Read 18106 times)

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Offline deldridg

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Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« on: April 06, 2013, 11:55:47 AM »
Hi all,

an Easter experience has prompted me to write this message which may or may not be appropriate for this forum. If not - my humble apology.

On Easter Friday morning, our family headed west from Sydney in the fourby with CT for a few days of camping away from the crowds. Just out of Lithgow on the Bathurst side, we were flagged over by the police and joined a long queue of fourbys with/without campers. Turns out they were checking for firearms.

I asked the copper if they were finding anything and his response was alarming - he told me they were finding a surprisingly high number of unregistered guns (and other weapons) in vehicles amongst a lot of registered ones. Hmmm - I thought. Clearly there are a lot of people wanting to shoot things, apparently many of whom were prepared to break the law to do so.

Getting to the point - we have young kids and spend a lot of time in National Parks and State Forests and no doubt many of you do too. I will do anything to keep my family out of danger and so will be fighting this dangerous momentum which doubtless will lead to a likely increase in risks for all concerned. Simple equation - where there are guns and other weapons (registered or not), there will be accidents (or worse).

My wife handed me a brochure this morning about a rally outside Parliament House in Sydney on Thu 18th April, from 12:30 to 1:30pm. Despite not being politically motivated activist types, my wife and I will be there to oppose recreational hunting in our parks and hope some of you may feel the same way and come along. I believe their website is: www.nohunting.com.au.

For the record - I grew up in the country and can handle a firearm and have done a fair amount of shooting on private farms over the years, so I'm (hopefully) not being a complete wowser here. Guns and bows & arrows have their place but they are not compatible with the safe outdoor camping activities of my family and yours.

Finally - it is well established that the "pest eradication" justification for these policies is fundamentally flawed and simply does not stack up against the risks. The effectiveness of amateur 'pest hunting' is extremely low - there is plenty of supporting doco to this effect.

So - hope to be amongst some of you folk on the 18th.

Cheers and happy, safe camping,
Dave E (Sydney)

PS. Just had to add this link. Excellent form and gives my rant some cred. http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/senior-hunting-official-charged-20130406-2hd2e.html#
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 12:25:24 PM by deldridg »
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Offline Bunyip

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2013, 12:54:31 PM »
We were pulled up at the same check point. There was plenty of guns being inspected.

The Police asked me if I had any weapons in the car, I said no, blew into the breath tester and drove off. Thanks goodness he didn't want us to unpack the car, not that we had any weapons, it was so tightly packed I don't think we would have got it all back in.

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Offline Bird

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2013, 01:02:20 PM »
Quote from: deldridg
I will do anything to keep my family out of danger and so will be fighting this

save your breath, I believe the shooters party has the controlling vote in NSW now??  Havnet they added shooting as a lesson?
http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/push-for-guns-in-schools-20110716-1hj5q.html


Shooting for schools

Many sporting organisations offer enjoyable and appropriate programs for children that can be delivered at the school venue and tailored to the school's needs.

Sport and Recreation has developed the Sports Directory for Schools to assist NSW schools in their delivery of sport and physical activity and encourage better links between school and sporting communities.

This information is designed to help teachers find out about the types of programs sporting organisations can offer schools.
http://www.dsr.nsw.gov.au/gatewaytosport/directory_sport.asp?activityid=54
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Offline bushbandit

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2013, 01:03:12 PM »
Heard the other day that the NP staff want to be fitted out with Flack Jackets.What does that tell you.
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Offline TheOtherLeft

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2013, 01:12:05 PM »
Heard the other day that the NP staff want to be fitted out with Flack Jackets.What does that tell you.

Lots of scare mongering from the unions.

Since there were a lot of illegal/unregistered firearms it tells me that illegal activity was quite widespread. Which to me means that new hunting laws or not it's going to happen.

Offline LC

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2013, 01:20:38 PM »
Our house borders a national park, so must admit I'm not that keen on the idea of people shooting close to our house. There was a fairly lengthy discussion on that on here about 12 months ago, but cant seem to find the thread at the moment!
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Offline bushbandit

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2013, 01:32:37 PM »
When on the way to Tassie we stopped at Glenrowan CP in a cabin,late that arvo sitting around the cabin outside having a beer shots starting ringing out on the property next to the CP we sh...t ourselves as it was really close.Anyway it seems it was a common practice .Then i walked around the side of the cabin and low and behold there was a hole in the aluminium wall that looked like a bullet hole showed the wife she couldnt beleive it.It was from another day.All i could think of was that truck driver in Sydney a few years ago who was just sitting on the side of the road and a stray bullet killed him ,it was fired from a k away .
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Offline Jason B

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2013, 01:41:37 PM »
Petty naive view in my opinion. I am not really an avid hunter however I do work in a compliance role that over laps into NP's and State Forrests. I also have NPWS compliance powers.

I have seen legal shooting in state Forrests have some positive impacts.

Firstly you are kidding yourself if you think hunting and shooting in NP's in not occurring now. It has been forever and the people who do it are taking risks and are uncontrolled. They also have a lot at stake and are willing to do whatever it takes to evade detection and capture in many instances.

Legal shooting is controlled, numbers are limited and the activity is confined to certain areas. The guys that undertake this have to be above board at all levels and hold specific licences and certifications. If they stuff up they loose their gear and access.

What has occurred locally, Bathurst and Lithgow, is that the incidence of illegal hunting has decreased with the introduction of the enthusiasts. This is because there are now more eyes in the Forrest and these enthusiasts report the illegal hunters to authorities to protect their sport. Previously there were no enthusiasts and no eyes in the Forrest.

I don't agree with the policy, but all of the scare mongering is miss guided, Because the illegal hunters are going to be there and probably in greater numbers with or without the introduction of legal hunting.

A well controlled system of legal hunters keeping and eye on things may not be all doom and gloom, and to be honest you are unlikely to notice they are about, much the same as you don't see the illegal ones that have been doing it for a millennium now.

Jas

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2013, 01:48:37 PM »
Petty naive view in my opinion. I am not really an avid hunter however I do work in a compliance role that over laps into NP's and State Forrests. I also have NPWS compliance powers.

I have seen legal shooting in state Forrests have some positive impacts.

Firstly you are kidding yourself if you think hunting and shooting in NP's in not occurring now. It has been forever and the people who do it are taking risks and are uncontrolled. They also have a lot at stake and are willing to do whatever it takes to evade detection and capture in many instances.

Legal shooting is controlled, numbers are limited and the activity is confined to certain areas. The guys that undertake this have to be above board at all levels and hold specific licences and certifications. If they stuff up they loose their gear and access.

What has occurred locally, Bathurst and Lithgow, is that the incidence of illegal hunting has decreased with the introduction of the enthusiasts. This is because there are now more eyes in the Forrest and these enthusiasts report the illegal hunters to authorities to protect their sport. Previously there were no enthusiasts and no eyes in the Forrest.

I don't agree with the policy, but all of the scare mongering is miss guided, Because the illegal hunters are going to be there and probably in greater numbers with or without the introduction of legal hunting.

A well controlled system of legal hunters keeping and eye on things may not be all doom and gloom, and to be honest you are unlikely to notice they are about, much the same as you don't see the illegal ones that have been doing it for a millennium now.

Jas
So your going to get the illegal ones, who will be there now and forever, your not going to stop them, and then add in the now legal ones.. So there will be an increase - yes?
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Offline Jason B

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2013, 02:01:51 PM »
So your going to get the illegal ones, who will be there now and forever, your not going to stop them, and then add in the now legal ones.. So there will be an increase - yes?

Read my post again Mr.

There has been a decrease in illegal hunting in the Forrests around here since they have been opened to legal hunting. I guess the illegal guys (some at least) have either got their act together and become legal or gone to greener pastures, private properties or other areas.

The coppers and game council rangers have had a number of successful prosecutions of illegal hunters that were apprehended only because of information provided by legal hunters.

The authorities now have better powers due to licensing to take action on those they find with fire arms but not authorised to be in a particular area.

Not saying its a perfect system, but as it stands illegal hunting is rife. There may be some positives, however like most emotive issues these get quickly over looked when people jump to conclusions.

I don't support it. But have an understanding of both sides of the argument.

Jas

Offline Daawl

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Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2013, 02:02:53 PM »
Petty naive view in my opinion. I am not really an avid hunter however I do work in a compliance role that over laps into NP's and State Forrests. I also have NPWS compliance powers.

I have seen legal shooting in state Forrests have some positive impacts.

Firstly you are kidding yourself if you think hunting and shooting in NP's in not occurring now. It has been forever and the people who do it are taking risks and are uncontrolled. They also have a lot at stake and are willing to do whatever it takes to evade detection and capture in many instances.

Legal shooting is controlled, numbers are limited and the activity is confined to certain areas. The guys that undertake this have to be above board at all levels and hold specific licences and certifications. If they stuff up they loose their gear and access.

What has occurred locally, Bathurst and Lithgow, is that the incidence of illegal hunting has decreased with the introduction of the enthusiasts. This is because there are now more eyes in the Forrest and these enthusiasts report the illegal hunters to authorities to protect their sport. Previously there were no enthusiasts and no eyes in the Forrest.

I don't agree with the policy, but all of the scare mongering is miss guided, Because the illegal hunters are going to be there and probably in greater numbers with or without the introduction of legal hunting.

A well controlled system of legal hunters keeping and eye on things may not be all doom and gloom, and to be honest you are unlikely to notice they are about, much the same as you don't see the illegal ones that have been doing it for a millennium now.

Jas

I agree with you Jason, the legal hunters are under tight restrictions and any self respecting legal hunter will do what they can to protect their pastime. NP's and rec parks are closed to hunters during peak holiday times including public holidays so no legal hunter will be anywhere near a campsite. I personally have a young family and shudder about what illegal hunters are doing to what is actually one of the safest past times.




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Offline SambOz

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2013, 07:21:49 PM »
Just spotted this thread - it seems that NSW folks are all highly worked up about legalised hunting in the States National Parks.

Emotions running amok and whipped on by anti hunting/firearm organisations no doubt.

All I can tell NSW'ers is that legal Sambar Deer Stalking for 10 months of the year has been occurring for decades in Victoria and has caused no real problems.

The ethical and legal stalkers in the Vic. N.P.'s are probably the best source of information re any illegal activity and have strong views on anyone bringing hunting into disrepute.

Flak jackets etc.....what!!!.....get over it.   8)   ;D

Offline britts

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Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2013, 07:30:43 PM »
There is a lot of scaremongering by a lot of latte sippers, licensed shooters have been shooting in Vic national parks for decades and NSW state forests for about the last 5 years. If you feel the need to support the very people who actively seek to lock up our great outdoors so that your kids will never be able to camp anywhere but a caravan park that is completely up to you enjoy the day,

Offline achjimmy

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2013, 07:40:08 PM »
Just spotted this thread - it seems that NSW folks are all highly worked up about legalised hunting in the States National Parks.

Emotions running amok and whipped on by anti hunting/firearm organisations no doubt.

All I can tell NSW'ers is that legal Sambar Deer Stalking for 10 months of the year has been occurring for decades in Victoria and has caused no real problems.

The ethical and legal stalkers in the Vic. N.P.'s are probably the best source of information re any illegal activity and have strong views on anyone bringing hunting into disrepute.

Flak jackets etc.....what!!!.....get over it.   8)   ;D

Was just going to post up the same thing. Without politicizing this thread , the All powerful NSW public sector unions  need something to attack the current NSW government with and this is what they are organizing, with support from the Bambi brigade they have got a voice. NP shooting has been happening in VIC for years. Something is required to reduce the ferel animal population and the states don't want to spend monies on pro hunters so this is it. Read up on hunting, you have more chance of being run over in the NP than you have being shot, but the Bambi brigade won't let you think that, they will have you thinking poor bunny wabbit, or Bambi or billy goat! They are all ferels that need eradicating to keep Australian wildlife safe!!!

Personally my view is I would perfer pro hunters
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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2013, 07:43:03 PM »
There is a lot of scaremongering by a lot of latte sippers, licensed shooters have been shooting in Vic national parks for decades and NSW state forests for about the last 5 years. If you feel the need to support the very people who actively seek to lock up our great outdoors so that your kids will never be able to camp anywhere but a caravan park that is completely up to you enjoy the day,

Agree, do gooders have a lot to answer for. Some of the most rediculous regulations we have are because of meddling by noisy minorities unfortunately. Not suggesting the OP is in his category, but you seriously have to be careful what you wish for.

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Offline georgel

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2013, 07:43:34 PM »
For the record I don't like the idea of hunting in National Parks, however understand it happens and is required to a certain extent.

On a tag along tour a couple of years back we came across some pig hunters late in the afternoon that had 4 large bores on the back of the truck, and the look they gave us (as if we stumbled on to something dodgy) was quite unnerving.  They had their weapons in full view in a commando type stance, as we drove our convoy past their truck on a tight track.  I recall the guide saying 'stay off the CB for a couple of mins' as we cleared the track and got on to a main road.  Again, the vacant look on their faces did freak me out, and made me nervous with the wife and my 1 year old in back. 

I hope if this bill passes, we become pragmatic about it.  I'd like hunting to be restricted to certain days and communicated on entry into Parks (perhaps similar to the fire alert boards).  That was I can make an informed decision NOT to take my kid into the park.

Offline britts

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Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2013, 07:47:14 PM »
This is a copy of a speech given to a council in response to them wanting to write a letter to express their disapproval in regards to hunting in NPWS.

Anyway, here's the blurb.



As a ratepayer, I’d like to object to council time being used to pursue an ill-informed, overtly political agenda which this letter clearly is.

As a law abiding responsible hunter with 40 years experience, I could talk at length about the issues at the heart of the motion, but as I only have 3 minutes I will need to restrict myself to the specific themes raise in the motion.

Firstly, the use of the terms “amateur” and “professional. The harsh reality is that there is no real difference other than money changing hands. We have the same licensing regime, the same safety test and we operate to the same safety protocols.

I refer you to the Dept Environment, Climate Change and Water firearms management manual which, incidentally, is 90% about policy, regulation, compliance and OHS issues for staff. Never the less, it does state unequivocally that (and I quote) “The use of firearms is one of the most humane and effective techniques for destroying animals”. 

Page 4 of the manual talks about Professionalism; you will see that the term is used in the context of competency, not employment status. The manual freely talks about the use of both volunteers and contractors as well as paid staff, and the rules apply to all.

On the subject of competency, you may not realise that Departmental staff only have to qualify with firearms every 5 years. Try getting a hole in one, first go, having not picked up a golf club in 5 years!

My personal observations during the ACT roo culler’s competency tests was that the “amateurs” passed with flying colours, whilst the park rangers struggled. So much for only using professionals.

The undeniable fact is, National Parks staff already shoot in parks, most often (other than in euthanasia situations) from helicopters using semi-automatic centrefire rifles equipped with silencers. Their own document (pg120) rates this as “low risk” as long as the gates are locked and signposted, and staff, neighbours and other contractors are advised that shooting is taking place.

They don’t seem to place much emphasis on park users other than a cursory check of any camp grounds. Why? Because park users and ferals tend to occupy different areas of the parks. Don’t believe the orchestrated fear mongering that would have you believe that hunters and other park users will be tripping over each other. It just does not happen.

Licenced hunters have operated in NSW state forests for several years and in Victorian National Parks for decades with an admirable safety record, and there is nothing magical about NSW NP’s that makes them materially different. Bush walkers are more at risk driving to the NP than they are from bullets, professional or amateur.

On the subject of animal welfare, the manual refers readers to the DAFF codes of practice, and in turn the Sharp and Saunders model for assessing the relative humaneness of available pest animal control methods.
It should be noted that the scientific rigour of the Sharp and Saunders model has been called into question (ironically, by amateur hunters - the redneck ones I hunt with hold PhD’s in environmental sciences by the way) and it is currently unavailable online as it is “under review”, never the less it is the closest we have to the “scientific rigour” you are seeking.

It consistently rates ground based shooting as the most humane method available and only discounts it on the basis of cost. The use of volunteers changes that cost paradigm significantly, to the point that it becomes a no brainer. We don’t need more money, we need more progressive thinking on how to deal with the problem. I note the draft letter does not suggest any alternative solutions by the way.

Certainly from an animal welfare perspective, ground based shooting is far preferable to aerial shooting and 1080 poisoning, which are the only viable real world alternatives.

I don’t need to point out the challenges of hitting a target from a moving helicopter, and the ability to monitor the results when flying above the trees. I have access to footage of a NPWS aerial pig cull which would make you sick. I also have access to footage of animals dying slow, painful deaths from 1080 if anyone cares to see that.

Shooting might be confronting, it might be unpalatable, but there can be no credible argument that it is THE most humane method, when done competently. It is target specific, does not pollute the environment with poison residues, or keep on killing up the food chain as the victims are consumed by predators, as poison can.

Lastly, on the subject of tourism. The Victorian Agriculture and Food Security Minister Peter Walsh was recently quoted as saying that "Duck hunting provides a significant economic benefit to Victoria, generating about $100 million annually”.

The NSW Game Council of NSW Public Benefit Assessment 2011-12 identifies a total net benefit to NSW from public land hunting of just under $3m, with Gross Regional Product of $50.8 million.

If council is concerned about the tourism dollar, the simple message is - be nice to hunters. I could go on but my time is up.

I have debunked your concerns about safety, animal welfare, scientific rigour and loss of tourism. What else is there other than pure, unadulterated ideology?

In closing, I have to ask, why is Council even worried about this subject? Local council is not a pre-school for green leaning councillors with their eye on a seat in the NSW legislative assembly.

Stick to your knitting please. If you have spare cycles, I wouldn’t mind seeing a plan to get my road sealed, or for one of my emails to council to get a response.

If you do decide to write a letter, then at least research the topic and ask informed questions. As it stands, this letter is an embarrassment to all who vote in favour of it.



Anyway hope this helps,
Cheers

Offline dazzler

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Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2013, 10:43:47 PM »
What power do the NSW police have to check your vehicle for a firearm?

Just wondering.
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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2013, 01:31:37 AM »
This hunting will not be happening in -every- national park. As I understand it, it will be in less than 10% of existing parks. My further understanding is these parks will be in remote and rural areas, not in high traffic parks or those on the fringes of metropolitan areas. The loony Greens in NSW are feeling irrelevant since not gaining the balance of power at the last election, so are making noises, along with the unions that support them. Legal hunting has been happening in State Forests for years, and you'd hardly have known it was happening if not for a vocal group that is against any outdoor activities that don't fit their agenda of hand wringing authoritarianism.
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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2013, 05:43:21 AM »
What power do the NSW police have to check your vehicle for a firearm?

Just wondering.
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Offline achjimmy

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2013, 08:19:29 AM »
I am glad they are checking, a bit more proactive effort by the police and we might see some of the thousands of illegal firearms hauled in.
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Offline briann532

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2013, 08:38:16 AM »
I'm just wondering how well the gun amnesty worked all those years ago???

Seems to me the only people who did the right thing were the honest ones. (probably my swaggers ;D) Surprise surprise.
Back door government deals, illegal trading, unlicensed fools, and politics..........
Can anyone remind me why I go bush???

Bring in massively harsh penalties for offenders and let those honest people get on with living life.
Stop punishing the innocent. ( Off topic, this may also currently apply to super  ;D ;D ;D )

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Offline Jason B

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2013, 09:14:38 AM »
I'm just wondering how well the gun amnesty worked all those years ago???

Seems to me the only people who did the right thing were the honest ones. (probably my swaggers ;D) Surprise surprise.
Back door government deals, illegal trading, unlicensed fools, and politics..........
Can anyone remind me why I go bush???

Bring in massively harsh penalties for offenders and let those honest people get on with living life.
Stop punishing the innocent. ( Off topic, this may also currently apply to super  ;D ;D ;D )

Cheers
Brian

There is another amnesty on in NSW now. I don't think anyone has anything to fear from serious hunting enthusiasts. I agree totally those found doing the wrong thing should be smashed, vehicles seized etc.

Jas

Offline dazzler

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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2013, 09:36:07 AM »
All the powers in the world my friend.!

BHG

Seriously.  What power?
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Re: Anyone else opposed to hunting in our parks (NSW)?
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2013, 09:44:58 AM »
Seriously.  What power?

Depends on the circumstances I believe mate. If they have a reason to believe? They can stop, search and detain vehicles. Also they can obviously check licences and firearms registration and make seizures when appropriate.

We actually have better search powers for fish and fishing gear. Which is odd, the police I work with stop and search a lot of vehicles under our legislation, looking for fish of course  :angel: and then deal with what they find.

Jas