Just heard that Jimboomba campers have gone bust

[xcvator]

I think I mentioned this earlier but it is simple.  The govt has a certain amount of taxpayers money to spend on investigations.  They allocate according to the Fraud Control Guidelines (or its recent replacement).  Go and read it.

Its easy to slag them off from the cheap seats but I ask you this, how much would you like to increase you taxes by to employ investigators to investigate every single complaint to ASIC (or any of the other organisations).  Each extra investigator would be at least $100k per fte. 

Well I'm not slagging them off from the cheap seats but silly me, I was under the apparently misguided idea that ASIC was there to UPHOLD CORPORATE LAW and to prosecute the wrong doers you know, that silly old fashioned idea of protecting joe public from shonky business practices.If they are not going to do the job properly get rid of ASIC entirely, at least then joe public will know exactly where he stands and not be lured into a false sense of security and that would save the taxpayers money I'll bet London to a brick, that if one of ASIC's top people had got stung Jimboomba's directors would be hanging by the short and curlies by now, so please don't come out spouting about "fraud control guidelines". ASIC is PAID by the all the TAXPAYERS but only some of them, apparently,are being protected.
End of rant.

[dazzler]

Firstly I wasnt quoting you so settle.

I am pointing out THE FACTS of how the government allocate investigations.

Do you really think Joe Taxpayer could possibly fund enough investigators to cover EVERY crime. 

If so, heres your chance to explain how. 

Away you go........

EDIT

Just to help you out here with your calculations, as a fraud investigator my fte costs were around $100k.  I managed to investigate on average five serious fraud related crimes per year, about 15 average crimes and around 30 other matters.  I would also manage around 10 or so matters before court.  This was about average for an investigator.  In my section there were five investigators.  There is half a million just in FTE. 

The average taxpayer pays around $25k in tax. 

Hope that helps a bit with your calcs.

[xcvator]

I am pointing out THE FACTS of how the government allocate investigations.
.

As I said either ASIC does the job properly or get rid of ASIC, why pay a watch dog that only has 1 tooth.

Do you really think Joe Taxpayer could possibly fund enough investigators to cover EVERY crime. 

If there was a zero tolerance policy adopted, and  decent penalties handed out, yes, the taxpayer could afford it. It would be almost self funded and hopefully over time these sorts of "crime" wouldn't be worth the risk and we would see big decline in this behaviour .

[t303]

I think I mentioned this earlier but it is simple.  The govt has a certain amount of taxpayers money to spend on investigations.  They allocate according to the Fraud Control Guidelines (or its recent replacement).  Go and read it.

Its easy to slag them off from the cheap seats but I ask you this, how much would you like to increase you taxes by to employ investigators to investigate every single complaint to ASIC (or any of the other organisations).  Each extra investigator would be at least $100k per fte.

Sorry Dazzler, but that one doesn't fly.  In most cases the administrator has already done all the hard work and found all of the skeletons (and, incidentally, siphoned off all the remaining cash in the process; so it really doesn't cost the govt a dime).  The administrator can hand ASIC the files, which should allow even Inspector Clouseau to close the case.  I would be happy if these organizations would simply do the job they are legally required to.  In my case the company failed to provide a yearly return and ASIC let it roll on for most of another year; who knows how long they would have gone on without intervention if they hadn't gone totally bust! 

[Bird]

As I said either ASIC does the job properly or get rid of ASIC, why pay a watch dog that only has 1 tooth.

**** theres more toothless wastes of time that are there to make the plebs "Feel safe" in the Gov than sand on the beach

[ranger-jules]

To Take people's money and orders while they were in trouble is just typical of greed. I mean taking orders and promising people they would fulfil them is theft! I am surprised they cannot be charged with theft!  If you go out and take something that is not yours, you would be charged with theft! How is this any different?

[ozbogwam]

To Take people's money and orders while they were in trouble is just typical of greed. I mean taking orders and promising people they would fulfil them is theft! I am surprised they cannot be charged with theft!  If you go out and take something that is not yours, you would be charged with theft! How is this any different?

Because many times the added cash flow gets a business back out of trouble.

It's not theft it's deception that many businesses use to no I'll effect to customers but unfortunately when it crashes down it does it big time and effects a lot of unknowing customers

[dazzler]

Just to clear this up a bit. I don't agree with the system that the govt uses but understand the hr issues.

Handing over a file, or a referral to prosecute, doesn't mean scanning it into a computer and pushing enter - game over off to court. If you intend to prosecute then you need to prepare a brief of evidence that covers the proofs for every part of the offence. Every transaction needs to be accounted for and linked to the offence and you need to cover every possible defence.

Here is an example. I was handed a referral from The ato for a 1.2 million tax fraud. That is routine referral nothing big. The tax office already had a prima facile case we just had to put it together with witnesses and search warrants on compliant organisations.

This took over three months to get to brief prep alone and then another three years of court before he was sent to gaol and assets confiscated under poca released.

That is ONE case. As one of the sen investigators I sat on the panel that accepted or rejected referrals based on the govt's system. Now even if we could have done as we liked, and accepted every one who reported a matter to us, how could we manage it?  That one matter used up about six hours each day.

So I sincerely apologise if anyone is upset by me standing up for ASIC. I know a few investigators there and they do their best. They are not dumb, stupid, lazy or corrupt.  They do their work according to the rules the govt set. Slag off the govt by all means if you think they can provide more investigators to do more investigations. The reality is there are not that many good investigators out there. Fraud is not issuing speeding tickets

Cheers

[xcvator]

. Slag off the govt by all means if you think they can provide more investigators to do more investigations.

Cheers

That's exactly what I was doing 

[t303]

Maybe trading insolvent should be made an offense of strict liability.  We have probably got it barse ackwards.  Over in the middle east (can't remember whether it is  Dubai or Abu Dhabi) they arrest first then start the proceedings.  That might work pour encourager les autres   

[t303]

Because many times the added cash flow gets a business back out of trouble.

It's not theft it's deception that many businesses use to no I'll effect to customers but unfortunately when it crashes down it does it big time and effects a lot of unknowing customers

Many years ago the ever so clever accountants and beancounters realized they could improve their cash situation if they put their debtors on seven day invoices and paid their debts after 90days (or 10% down and the rest by summons).  The cash roundabout stalls and everyone suffers.  The govt is pretty good at slow paying too.

[Bird]

Many years ago the ever so clever accountants and beancounters realized they could improve their cash situation if they put their debtors on seven day invoices and paid their debts after 90days (or 10% down and the rest by summons). 

our place does that - even if terms for the other company are 30 days... we are constantly on hold when ordering stuff. but if someone is 1 day late, to the collection agency

[ranger-jules]

JUst hope that Terry and Sue Willis feel some guilt this Christmas knowing what they have done. They have left so many people mistrusting of local business. They have also made those people feel betrayed and cheated by the theft of their money and hopes.
I know you should let go of all the negativity from this, but sometimes it is hard when you think about what could and should have been!
Still waiting to hear if there is any chance of some people getting something out of it all. I especially feel for Rob the previous owner, what a gut wrenching thing to happen to something you put your heart and soul into over years of hard work.

[Bird]

JUst hope that Terry and Sue Willis feel some guilt this Christmas knowing what they have done.
Still waiting to hear if there is any chance of some people getting something out of it all.

Dude, get over it,. Your not getting a brass razoo... Not **** all.. The money is GONE.. BYE BYE... The tax office arent going to be all lovey dovey and share with you. Neither are the business' that are owed money.

Your only stressing yourself out *hoping* theres a god and your getting money back.  There aint a god..

And Terry and Sue will be crying over their Martini's and xmas gifts worrying about all the people they been ****ing over... someone said trading insolvent since March or similar?

I suggest if you really cannot see the money is gone and your not getting spit, which has been mentioned several times from people who are also suffering in this whole gig that the money so GONE BYE BYES then you need to see councilling..  We can arrange a hour with Speewa if you need... Others have moved on on this forum and others..

It may seem harsh, but someone has to say it.

YMMV

[nbd73]

I suggest if you really cannot see the money is gone and your not getting spit, which has been mentioned several times from people who are also suffering in this whole gig that the money so GONE BYE BYES then you need to see councilling..  We can arrange a hour with Speewa if you need... Others have moved on on this forum and others..

It may seem harsh, but someone has to say it.

YMMV

Here here! And Amen. There seems little to add to this thread other than what has been said a couple of dozen times over. Unless there is some fresh news or developments on people's trailers it might be time for a moderator to close this . I have read it with interest, but really everything has been said or discussed - nothing new or insightful left to add.

[Kalebjarrod]

i run a small business, i know that most of the time when a customer goes broke and owes me $5,000 - $10,000 they normally owe the tax man $200,000 - $500,000, they normally owe there staff in holiday pay and super $100,000 - $300,000

taxman first, staff second, the rest of us last

if i want my money it would cost me $25,000 in legal fees to get back $5,000 in four years time if theres any left

i just drop it, move on and never forget, i will find them one day

[Barry G]

if i want my money it would cost me $25,000 in legal fees to get back $5,000 in four years time if theres any left

i just drop it, move on and never forget, i will find them one day

As the old saying goes, "Walk quietly and carry a big stick."
SOMEONE will catch up with them eventually, but with so many looking for them it would be difficult to sheet the blame home to any individual...          

[Bird]

I wonder how fast Kimberley had this page up
http://www.kimberleykampers.com/deposits-and-fair-trading-laws

[D4D]

I could be wrong but I think they're having a crack at Ultimate who have the 30/30/40 payment thing.

[Bird]

I could be wrong but I think they're having a crack at Ultimate who have the 30/30/40 payment thing.

i thought this was the give away
One of the dissapointing aspects of the caravan and camper trailer industry is when you hear of a customer losing their deposit after a manufacturer cannot deliver a product

[D4D]

Maybe they're having a crack all camper builders.

This is the Ulti bit

There are also examples of manufacturers withholding refunds from customers when they are unable to meet a general production date with a new product. This is difficult for customers.

Kimberley NEVER asks Customers to pay 30% then a further 30% weeks before production is finished.

[Tim - Stratford]

Kimberley NEVER asks Customers to pay 30% then a further 30% weeks before production is finished. [/i]

Hmmm, well maybe that is 'Kimberley' - 18mths ago when we updated we did the three part payment BEFORE delivery to the dealer.....but we did get out Kamper.


Tim

[D4D]

[wartim]

Interesting comments

I was speaking with Terry's boss just before Xmas, who reckons Terry is devastated about what has happened and noted he has lost everything including his house and his car.  According to his boss Terry wants to pay everyone back and with his current job and yearly income which is double mine, it is quite conceivable that he could make amends and pay everyone back. 

However, according to his boss the Govt will only allow him to earn a median income (I don't think it is right to give the exact amount out) and they take the rest, until they have what they are owed..?

I can see that in desperate times these business people think the additional cash flow (from deposits and progress payments) will help keep the creditors away and keep the business going, however in reality it never does as all they are doing is robbing Peter to pay Paul.  A local joiner went under just before Xmas yet he still took a deposit on a $30K kitchen the day before he went under.  He owed the taxation dept. $950K plus a large amount of outstanding super to the employees.

What gets up my nose is when an Employer goes bankrupted or into liquidation the Govt and Banks always get their money 1st and will always survive through increased taxes or interest rates.   It’s the employees who turn up everyday in good faith to do a job as best they can and are the core of the business (any business) who loose out.  They loose their jobs and all entitlements including any unpaid wages, holiday pay, long service leave and outstanding super which they can never recover from.


Who protects the employees?

Disclaimer -: I do not know Terry and have no association  with Terry, his family or Jimboomba Campers and until the other night I did not know Terry's boss.


Wartim

[Tassie devils]

Hung drawn and quartered