Author Topic: Aussie Education System  (Read 10620 times)

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Offline Barrabart

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Aussie Education System
« on: May 27, 2012, 02:48:01 PM »
G'day all,

I've started this thread after reading the thread on importing people into Aus to take Aussie jobs thread..

Anyway i feel the education system in Aus is in need of a massive overhaul, at present i reckon it's only serving half the requirements of our country.

The current schooling our kids receive is catering well for kids with intentions of moving onto Uni etc, and this is great because we all need doctors, engineers, scientists etc.
For the other kids however they are really just wasting their time in staying in school to complete senior as it's all quite meaningless...... Why can't the senior years of schools of today be divided into two, one half catering as they currently do for the potential uni students, the other half can be a type of tech school, maybe allow the kids to do normal school till end of gr10, but if it appears doing gr11 & 12 won't really be catering well for their needs, let the kids try a few different trades experiences, as many as possible. Then over the next couple of years the kids can basically work there way through the first couple of years of their chosen apprenticeship, with plenty of work experience and job readiness skills thrown into the mix.
Even getting them such things as forklift tickets or something useful to future employees....

Your thoughts?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2012, 03:18:09 PM by Barrabart »
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Offline D4D

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Re: Aussie Education System
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2012, 03:00:59 PM »
Worst govt decision ever to get rid of tech schools, some of us are old enough to remember when they existed.
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Offline macca

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Re: Aussie Education System
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2012, 03:20:15 PM »
As a tradie and I suspect most other tradies will aggree, we have been saying for more years that i care to remember that the education system and society in general have been pushing kids away from trades and that one day we will run out of tradesmen, so alltough dissapointing its no real supprise

Offline Mace

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Re: Aussie Education System
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2012, 03:53:41 PM »
Close to home!

I have worked in non teaching roles in secondary eduation and currently with in a non teaching role in the TAFE Sector (Health & Safety).

Agree with your basic assumptions, however, many year 9 - 12 students dont have a clue what they want to do when they leave school, no matter how much careers councelling they get.

The Victorian sector offers a non VCE pathway for those that dont want to go to uni.  Students can undertake a variety of Vocationally directed courses and gain experience in real jobs with real employers.
The traditional trades areas are well catered for.  We have two major Technical Education Centres, linked in with major high schools. Students can undertake TAFE testers courses to gain an initial understanding of these trades.  Many do these, and then link in with Job providers to gain apprenticeships.  This approach works well in major centres with a critical mass.  Many smaller communities (say 2 to 6 thousand persons) miss out on this approach tho, our TEC's are in cities of 20,000 plus persons.

Our TEC's also offer hospitality and Hairdressing.  Not a great range of choices for females.

We currently have 2 major commercial kitchens in smaller campuses sitting unused to to lack of numbers!

We also offer Rural Industries Training, Dairy Education, Equine Education, Vetrinary Courses on two major campuses.  Apprenticeships are less common in these areas now, it is a specialist area.  Same for Nursing, Business Studies  and Allied Health Care, which we also offer.  Not really a school based option. You need a Cert 4 Minimum, or a Diploma/Degree. These are not short term courses suitable for years 10-11.


The pathways are there, the specialist support networks are there.  At the moment tho, fragementation of the training system by way of private providers "cherry picking" and delivering  courses is decreasing our ability to gain critical mass.  As allways, rural students will find it harder to do a course that they want.

The end aim should be to give all students that leave high school (at whatever age) either a relevant qualification (VCE/HSC) that they can use for further education or a secure Vocational Pathway.  I reckon that in most cases this does happen.  Whether that qualification actually sits where the person wants to go in another 12 months or three years  is the big issue.

A student leaving school now will have three or four different careers, it is very hard to plan for future changes in educational   preferences before the event.

And now the Victorian Government rips another  300 million out of the TAFE Sector, on top of the 400m last year.  Classes that used to run with say 10 students will not run anymore, no critical mass. 16 will be the minumum.  Many of our current hospitality and business studies  courses in large campuses dont meet these numbers.  Students wold rather do a degree at a Uni in Melbourne.  Our specialist Koori Education and Migrant Education Courses will probably dissapear.  Our stafing level of 450 FTE will drop. Another 50 or 60 unemployed - probably mainly sessionals or part timers,  but I reckon many Full timers will go also.  No options in the Kimberly for them, and fewer options for year 10-11 students.

I worry about it.

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Offline McGirr

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Re: Aussie Education System
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2012, 04:08:34 PM »

I have a son 18 and daughter 19 and both undecided what to do. My daughter said that if she did a Uni course and the numbers dwindle they could cancel that course after 2 years. So she would have to travel elsewhere to finish the course.

Her boyfriend has just completed basic training at kapooka and is now based in singleton and she is considering joining the army and doing office some training courses with them.

The problem is picking a trade or career that will be around when the courses are finished in 4 to 6 years.

When I left school there were plenty of opportunities to be an apprentice but the problem there were so many kids to pick from to fill the positions that a lot missed out even having the grades that they were looking for. The employer picked people that were over qualified.

How many trades people have left their trade to pursue other opportunities un related from their last job.

In a perfect world there would be jobs for everyone but it's not to be. You have to be aggressive and go looking for the job these days.

Mark
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Offline bobnrob

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Re: Aussie Education System
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2012, 04:20:53 PM »
I've been bitching for years along the same line Barrabart.
I really don't see the need to teach french/german/chinese/aboriginal etc etc etc...pointless. Why is it more important to teach science over learning how to say...operate a grader? Especially when in reality, the science knowledge probably only interest minuscule of the year/grade/form - I know it bored everyone I knew to tears!

With more & more leaving the system illiterate (don't even start me on what I think of teachers), it's time to get back to basics...the 3 R's.
Stop trying to cram so much into the kids school lives. What happens when (in the work-force), things are rushed & try to do to much at once? The job/project usually falls over, or becomes inferior!

And bring back the cane too!

Quote
by McGirr
When I left school there were plenty of opportunities to be an apprentice but the problem there were so many kids to pick from to fill the positions that a lot missed out even having the grades that they were looking for. The employer picked people that were over qualified.

So you got a job as a labourer & worked your way up. But now you'd need at least 2 bits of paper just to dig a hole...but those jobs don't exist any more!
Bob and Robyn


Offline McGirr

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Re: Aussie Education System
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2012, 04:36:45 PM »

I think they should also teach kids about unscrupulous employers that dont give young kids the breaks that they are allowed to have and also make them work back for no pay knowing that if they left they will get other young people in to take their place.

Sorry off topic.

Mark
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Offline Mace

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Re: Aussie Education System
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2012, 04:52:19 PM »
Sorry off topic.

Mark

No, very much on topic.

My youngest was working 25 hours a week for $10 an hour - hospitality - to help support her living costs at uni. Some trades - like hospitality, havnt moved on much in the last 20 years.  Still many unscrupulous employers out there in many trades areas.  Thats why Vocational training needs to be coordinated with a provider who can weed out these types.
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Offline Wandering Tassie

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Re: Aussie Education System
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2012, 04:52:31 PM »
Schooling should be all about preparing them for the life ahead and yea I agree, it is failing big time.

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Re: Aussie Education System
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2012, 04:58:24 PM »
I think they should also teach kids about unscrupulous employers
Mark

No doubt you've now educated the kids how to deal with these types of employers, three words come to mind, first word is "go"!!  ;D
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Offline becboo

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Re: Aussie Education System
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2012, 05:38:38 PM »
I used to work for an employer who employed a lot of apprentices.  They helped them in all sorts of ways even to the point of transferring them to a different branch if they weren't coping without their families.  Fortunately this employer pays more than the normal.
I could not understand why the apprentices had to have a grade 12 certificate with good marks in maths, science and english.  I was told it is the machinery they are working on now.
I understood this to a degree but there are a lot of young men who have a natural aptitude for mechanics (or what ever hands on work) but have difficulty in the class room.  What of these young men???  How do we as a society help them to find their way in the world? 
I have 2 girls who thankfully have found their spot in the world.  But I also have a son who is 10.  He has aspergers.  He has an IQ 3 years above kids his age but when it comes to school work he is at a level 2 years below.  He looks at the world in a 3D fashion (that is how it was explained to me).  He has a photographic memory on the subjects he enjoys.  But his social skills are not automatically learnt so it is a repetitive process to teach him.  I wonder what will happen to him later in life dealing with a world that is relentless and unforgiving, let alone having to deal with the normal array of stuff that teenagers have to deal with.

 :cheers:
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Offline alnjan

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Re: Aussie Education System
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2012, 05:59:44 PM »
Gillard has said herself, the one thing her government is good at is reform.  I am sure there is time left for her to reform the education system as it stands, stripping as much funding from it as she can find and using the fresh surplus give low income families with school age lids a one of bonus to sell her new School Funding package to try and make us believe she is the world greatest manager





Or I could have it completely wrong 
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Offline shrek4

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Re: Aussie Education System
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2012, 06:20:31 PM »
I've been bitching for years along the same line Barrabart.
I really don't see the need to teach french/german/chinese/aboriginal etc etc etc...pointless. Why is it more important to teach science over learning how to say...operate a grader? Especially when in reality, the science knowledge probably only interest minuscule of the year/grade/form - I know it bored everyone I knew to tears!

With more & more leaving the system illiterate (don't even start me on what I think of teachers), it's time to get back to basics...the 3 R's.
Stop trying to cram so much into the kids school lives. What happens when (in the work-force), things are rushed & try to do to much at once? The job/project usually falls over, or becomes inferior!

And bring back the cane too!

So you got a job as a labourer & worked your way up. But now you'd need at least 2 bits of paper just to dig a hole...but those jobs don't exist any more!

As a teacher (Senior Leader of the Senior Secondary section of a large P-12 school in Adelaide) with experience in a range of schools and as a Deputy Principal and Prinicpal, I can honestly say it is not teachers as fault here. It is the over crowded curriculum that is imposed on schools that and the fact society who refuses to make kids and their PARENTS responsible for anything. Schools are having to teach driver safety, drug education, sex ed, road safety, anti-gambling, child protection curriculum and many others. Whilst many of these are great programs lets face it, we do these because parents aren't. Much time is taken away from the 3 R's for these and other programs.

Unfortunately teachers have little say over the curriculum, the curriculum structure and school structures. Often these decisions are made by academic types who haven't a clue about teaching modern day teens.

The other issue I take aim at is the soft approach that school systems take to academic expectations. That is, in our state at least, it is not 'done' to fail students and make them repeat a year level. I ask, what is the incentive to focus on your learning, submit assignments, study etc if you are promoted year after year regardless if you actually do the work or not. At the senior level yrs 11 & 12 this is often not the case. Now students must pass a compulsory unit of maths and 2 units of English and 1 unit of a research project.

I also take aim at the education unions who for too long have promoted the interests of under performing teachers making it very difficult to give anyone the boot. Fortunately there are many more great teachers than s##t ones.

Nowadays the cane just wouldn't work, too many teachers are scared of students and wouldn't implement it. It seems that kids would react more if we were able to confiscate their phones or block them from Facebook for a week or two.

Fortunately for the students so inclined not to go on to tertiary studies we offer a range of VET or vocational education and training subjects at our school. This is taken up by a large number of our senior students and I'd say is quite successful. This isn't a trade school - but possibly as close to it as our Education Dept will allow.

And finally, trying to recruit teachers with trade skills to pass on to kids is near impossible these days. With the $$$ a trade could make in industry, why on earth would they consider doing a teaching degree to earn less. If we want GOOD teachers we simply need to pay more, we need to make it a profession where people are beating at the door to get into, rather than leaving in droves.

End rant
« Last Edit: May 27, 2012, 06:39:55 PM by shrek4 »

Offline Mace

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Re: Aussie Education System
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2012, 06:26:01 PM »
He looks at the world in a 3D fashion (that is how it was explained to me).  He has a photographic memory on the subjects he enjoys.  But his social skills are not automatically learnt so it is a repetitive process to teach him.  I wonder what will happen to him later in life dealing with a world that is relentless and unforgiving, let alone having to deal with the normal array of stuff that teenagers have to deal with.


That is the most interesting description of aspergers I have ever heard, and a very perceptive one.

I have known 2 aspergers children who are now adults, both sucesfully integrated into the workforce, both into very specialist areas that make the most of their skills. 
This required them to make the appropraite links with employers whlst at school via a very perceptive Vocational councelling person.

Hope your son has the same good fortune and has someone who can help him find his niche.

Shrek  you hit the nail on the head,

1. education is a three way process. Parents, Teachers, Pupil.
2. Hard to get  trades teachers, most are nearing retirement age and have trouble communicating with Gen Y (another topic in itself - I know, I have two of them).

 :cheers:
« Last Edit: May 27, 2012, 06:31:26 PM by Mace »
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Offline GS

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Re: Aussie Education System
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2012, 06:30:14 PM »
This guy challenges some old school norms. 20 minutes well spent.

Makes sense to me.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html

Enjoy

Grant
« Last Edit: May 27, 2012, 06:31:51 PM by GS »
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Offline dazzler

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Re: Aussie Education System
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2012, 06:45:23 PM »
The only issue I see is that we may lose a lot of potential because the children of those less educated may end up in trades and the like instead of those jobs that require a good education.  My family is a good example.  Mum and dad left school in yr 7 and yr 8 due to being very poor and having to look after their siblings (long story but not a happy one for both of them).

Anyways, my brother and I were pretty good at high school with my brother duxing maths and I did the same in english.  Now mum and dad had no understanding of higher education and convinced us to both get trades (brother a sparkie and me a diesel mechanic).  I enjoyed my trade however moved on to other things.   Same with my brother. 

It wasnt until we hit our late 30's that we both realised we were not hitting our potential and both returned to study and we are both doing uni part time.

So in a round about way I think we are now heading where we should have 25yrs ago.  Now I am not complaining, mum did the best that she knew, but it was far too easy to leave school at yr 10 and we both wonder what we could have achieved had we gone to uni (this is in the 80's).

Our 2 older boys have never been pointed in any other direction other than uni.  The oldest is looking at engineering/architecture and the younger at something to do with health.

So what i am stuffing up saying is there is huge potential from all kids and the last thing you really want is once class or group of kids leaving because their mates left. 

My 5yo is a classic example of potential.  The other day she was counting in the back of the car as we drove along.  When asked she said she was counting trees and signs and grouping them.  So she would go 9 trees, 6 signs then 10 trees, 6 signs,  then 11 trees and 7 signs. We have three identical vehicles at work and she knows whose is whose by the number plates.  The potential of this one is huge and as with the boys she is already being pointed in the uni direction.  (try doing what she was - I failed at about 20 and 15 of each)

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Offline gacoxd

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Aussie Education System
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2012, 08:01:31 PM »
I've been bitching for years along the same line Barrabart.
I really don't see the need to teach french/german/chinese/aboriginal etc etc etc...pointless. Why is it more important to teach science over learning how to say...operate a grader? Especially when in reality, the science knowledge probably only interest minuscule of the year/grade/form - I know it bored everyone I knew to tears!

With more & more leaving the system illiterate (don't even start me on what I think of teachers), it's time to get back to basics...the 3 R's.
Stop trying to cram so much into the kids school lives. What happens when (in the work-force), things are rushed & try to do to much at once? The job/project usually falls over, or becomes inferior!

And bring back the cane too!

So you got a job as a labourer & worked your way up. But now you'd need at least 2 bits of paper just to dig a hole...but those jobs don't exist any more!

Grader Teacher - "little BobnRob. Are you ready to learn the most important thing about operating a grader?"
Little BobnRob - "Sure am boss.  I've been learning about gradering for a whole 3 hours and it sure is full of lots of good learnin' .... Not that pointless sciency stuff"
GT -   "well the most important thing you need to know is to watch the inclinometer and make sure you don't ever get it over 30 degrees otherwise the grader will roll over and kill youl"
LBnR - "sure thing boss .. 30 degrees ... Got it"

Three weeks later as the project is pushing its deadline ...

Foreman - "Boss we got a problem. Little BobnRob is refusing to drive the grader."
Boss - "what's up ... He's been going really well"
Foreman - "you're not gonna believe this ... His old man told him I was gonna be 32 today and he reckons that it not safe to operate a grader over 30 degrees"

Science helps explain the world around us and make sense of our environment.  We would use 300 inventions from the last 100 years just getting out the door each day. 

Don't sell it short. Your life depends on it.

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Offline macca

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Re: Aussie Education System
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2012, 08:32:08 PM »
Least you got three weeks work out of LittleBobnRob, you scientists would still be trying to start the grader, lol and ducking for cover :cheers:

Offline gacoxd

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Re: Aussie Education System
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2012, 08:40:20 PM »
Least you got three weeks work out of LittleBobnRob, you scientists would still be trying to start the grader, lol and ducking for cover :cheers:

hehe yeah maybe but it is an attitude that sh*ts me.  Scientists get bad wrap and it is really undeserved.
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Offline Mace

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Re: Aussie Education System
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2012, 08:45:40 PM »
hehe yeah maybe but it is an attitude that sh*ts me.  Scientists get bad wrap and it is really undeserved.

Dont worry Pal, those of us with Science Degrees have long memories!!

 :cheers:
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Offline rossbarb

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Re: Aussie Education System
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2012, 08:47:51 PM »
Hi Everyone,
I will put it out there first i am a teacher who loves teaching my students. I would love to raise the  literacy levels in my students and I go out of my way to do. I buy books that I know my students are interested out of my own money such as camping books(that doesn't hurt too much) fishing, 4x4, motor bike books or reciepe or whatever my reluctant readers are interested in. I would have more money to do this if I didn't have to buy extra food to take in for the students who don't get anything to eat day after day, provide books and pencils and pay for some child's excursion fees as their parents don't do this. as well as buy uniforms for some of them.
I also could spend more time teaching them things that we all feel are important if i didn'thave to by law teach them to cross the road, get on a bus, what they should eat, how to have water confidence, drug education, sex education, how to deal with the social media, clean their teeth also that you sleep through the night and stay awake of a day so you CAN learn as their parents allow them to stay awake all night playing inappropriate computer games, as they come to school if they come at all and sleep until 11. Not all parents raise their children this way but many do!!!!
Also would you have been limited in your choices of career or education by a choice you made when you were 15 years old I do not think so as most young people change their minds on their career choice many times over.  I know my daughter changed from an agricultural scientist  to landscape architecture and this was just in the first 2 months after she decided on what uni degree she would do.
Yes the education system does not suit many students especially some boys. But if we give them the best education we can it opens many doors giving them the choice. I have a class that has 80% boys in it with many students that fall into the categories that we are talking about, but I think I can truefully say that they are all valued for who they are and they are always told that we are given different talents and all these talents are valuable. So they all enjoy school and I try to make all my classes engaging. They do thing like preparing to make a road trip around Australia with 3 mates at the end of school they have to do their research and plan for this trip.
So next time we all critical of teachers remember that many of the students are not raised and loved the way your children are. They may not have been feed since the last time the teacher fed them, or the 11 year old in sixth class got up and got their three soblings ready for school, or their parents collapsed on their bed from drinking too much the night before.
Sorry for the rant but the education of our students is something that I am passionate about, and yes it shocked me what some students have to go through as I too thought all students had the same home life as mine but they don't, but I try to make up for this in some little way.
barb
 

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Aussie Education System
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2012, 08:48:32 PM »
As someone who did very well through the public system, wanted to do vet science and was accepted to melb uni science. Dropped out close to the end of first year and started working with the golden arches. My goodness, did I ever hit my straps! On the job learning and training is how I learn best and it's taken a while to work it out. I even started a business degree with monash before I trusted that the classroom environment is not for me. Now I'm doing an Accounting diploma online, I'm happy I've finally found my calling and am learning in a better way for me. I have an amazing amount of business, training and management experience a degree could never have given me yet, because I don't have that bit of paper, I struggle to get a job outside of hospitality management (anyone need a great manager who writes training modules and has a thorough working understanding of business and reporting and is studying how to crunch numbers??)
I watch my 17yo little brother who has no idea what he wants to do battle through learning in a classroom. He's only staying at school so he doesn't limit his options later. He did a VET (?) course last year. That was a waste of time (though may have been his attitude...).
My aunt, uncle and two of their kids are teachers of varying levels who've only been in the public system and mostly at tough schools. Yes, parenting has a lot to do with education, but teachers also can't just leave these kids to their own devices...they are humanitarians!
We have two young kids and their education is important to me. It's one of the greatest gifts I can give them. I am seriously considering homeschooling, or my other preference would be a Montessori style school.
Parents need to take responsibility for their kids education. Teachers give them the tools and get the kids started. Teachers shouldn't have to be giving kids their first education on where babies come from or how to tie their shoelaces, but they are and that's only going to get worse.

Lil :)


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Offline macca

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Re: Aussie Education System
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2012, 08:50:49 PM »
of course they do, the point is we need scientists, tradesmen, labourers and a whole lot more to make the world go round and in my view they are all as important as one an other. All TIC, wasnt meant to offend

Offline Mace

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Re: Aussie Education System
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2012, 09:02:47 PM »
No offence taken macca, I just enjoy stirring the pot!!  >:D

As all scientists kno, all theories deserve due concideration.

Barb, youre a champion, as are 98% of all teachers/lecturers I kno, dedicated to their profession.

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Offline craigtempo

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Re: Aussie Education System
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2012, 11:22:48 AM »
Schooling should be all about preparing them for the life ahead and yea I agree, it is failing big time.

Trevor

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our kids go to a Steiner school and we all love it [ i wish i went to one ]i don't like the public system and never have ,it doesn't teach respect ... doesn't teach about life .... doesn't teach about options ... puts to much emphases on the high school cert .Does not teach how to think outside the square and certainly dosnt develop the imagination.
Steiner dosnt PUSH ,PUSH ,PUSH instead they develop a love for learning and the child develops at THEIR pace .

my kid turns 9 in a few weeks ... couldnt read 6 months ago ... then in a 4-6 week period he learnt how to read ie it all came together . NOW he dosnt put books down .he has read in the last 4 months ..the  magic pudding... the complete Chronicals of nania ... Journey to the centre of the earth .. Blinky bill ... snugle pot and cuddle pie ... the muddle headed wombat ... the prince and the pourper ... the BFG and is one of the top spellers in his class .

YES i can hear people critasizing but go and have a look for yourself and talk to the teachers ... parents and the students .

everytime i hear a discusion on education and how to fix it 99% of the time steiner is already doing it that way .

they have an emphases on playing outside in the sun.They dont like COMPUTER GAMES and TELEVISION .They go camping 4-5 times a year .

i realise its not for everybody BUT we love it .

craig

oh and shreck4 ... i agree 100%
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 04:36:15 PM by craigtempo »