MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Barrabart on May 27, 2012, 02:48:01 PM
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G'day all,
I've started this thread after reading the thread on importing people into Aus to take Aussie jobs thread..
Anyway i feel the education system in Aus is in need of a massive overhaul, at present i reckon it's only serving half the requirements of our country.
The current schooling our kids receive is catering well for kids with intentions of moving onto Uni etc, and this is great because we all need doctors, engineers, scientists etc.
For the other kids however they are really just wasting their time in staying in school to complete senior as it's all quite meaningless...... Why can't the senior years of schools of today be divided into two, one half catering as they currently do for the potential uni students, the other half can be a type of tech school, maybe allow the kids to do normal school till end of gr10, but if it appears doing gr11 & 12 won't really be catering well for their needs, let the kids try a few different trades experiences, as many as possible. Then over the next couple of years the kids can basically work there way through the first couple of years of their chosen apprenticeship, with plenty of work experience and job readiness skills thrown into the mix.
Even getting them such things as forklift tickets or something useful to future employees....
Your thoughts?
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Worst govt decision ever to get rid of tech schools, some of us are old enough to remember when they existed.
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As a tradie and I suspect most other tradies will aggree, we have been saying for more years that i care to remember that the education system and society in general have been pushing kids away from trades and that one day we will run out of tradesmen, so alltough dissapointing its no real supprise
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Close to home!
I have worked in non teaching roles in secondary eduation and currently with in a non teaching role in the TAFE Sector (Health & Safety).
Agree with your basic assumptions, however, many year 9 - 12 students dont have a clue what they want to do when they leave school, no matter how much careers councelling they get.
The Victorian sector offers a non VCE pathway for those that dont want to go to uni. Students can undertake a variety of Vocationally directed courses and gain experience in real jobs with real employers.
The traditional trades areas are well catered for. We have two major Technical Education Centres, linked in with major high schools. Students can undertake TAFE testers courses to gain an initial understanding of these trades. Many do these, and then link in with Job providers to gain apprenticeships. This approach works well in major centres with a critical mass. Many smaller communities (say 2 to 6 thousand persons) miss out on this approach tho, our TEC's are in cities of 20,000 plus persons.
Our TEC's also offer hospitality and Hairdressing. Not a great range of choices for females.
We currently have 2 major commercial kitchens in smaller campuses sitting unused to to lack of numbers!
We also offer Rural Industries Training, Dairy Education, Equine Education, Vetrinary Courses on two major campuses. Apprenticeships are less common in these areas now, it is a specialist area. Same for Nursing, Business Studies and Allied Health Care, which we also offer. Not really a school based option. You need a Cert 4 Minimum, or a Diploma/Degree. These are not short term courses suitable for years 10-11.
The pathways are there, the specialist support networks are there. At the moment tho, fragementation of the training system by way of private providers "cherry picking" and delivering courses is decreasing our ability to gain critical mass. As allways, rural students will find it harder to do a course that they want.
The end aim should be to give all students that leave high school (at whatever age) either a relevant qualification (VCE/HSC) that they can use for further education or a secure Vocational Pathway. I reckon that in most cases this does happen. Whether that qualification actually sits where the person wants to go in another 12 months or three years is the big issue.
A student leaving school now will have three or four different careers, it is very hard to plan for future changes in educational preferences before the event.
And now the Victorian Government rips another 300 million out of the TAFE Sector, on top of the 400m last year. Classes that used to run with say 10 students will not run anymore, no critical mass. 16 will be the minumum. Many of our current hospitality and business studies courses in large campuses dont meet these numbers. Students wold rather do a degree at a Uni in Melbourne. Our specialist Koori Education and Migrant Education Courses will probably dissapear. Our stafing level of 450 FTE will drop. Another 50 or 60 unemployed - probably mainly sessionals or part timers, but I reckon many Full timers will go also. No options in the Kimberly for them, and fewer options for year 10-11 students.
I worry about it.
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I have a son 18 and daughter 19 and both undecided what to do. My daughter said that if she did a Uni course and the numbers dwindle they could cancel that course after 2 years. So she would have to travel elsewhere to finish the course.
Her boyfriend has just completed basic training at kapooka and is now based in singleton and she is considering joining the army and doing office some training courses with them.
The problem is picking a trade or career that will be around when the courses are finished in 4 to 6 years.
When I left school there were plenty of opportunities to be an apprentice but the problem there were so many kids to pick from to fill the positions that a lot missed out even having the grades that they were looking for. The employer picked people that were over qualified.
How many trades people have left their trade to pursue other opportunities un related from their last job.
In a perfect world there would be jobs for everyone but it's not to be. You have to be aggressive and go looking for the job these days.
Mark
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I've been bitching for years along the same line Barrabart.
I really don't see the need to teach french/german/chinese/aboriginal etc etc etc...pointless. Why is it more important to teach science over learning how to say...operate a grader? Especially when in reality, the science knowledge probably only interest minuscule of the year/grade/form - I know it bored everyone I knew to tears!
With more & more leaving the system illiterate (don't even start me on what I think of teachers), it's time to get back to basics...the 3 R's.
Stop trying to cram so much into the kids school lives. What happens when (in the work-force), things are rushed & try to do to much at once? The job/project usually falls over, or becomes inferior!
And bring back the cane too!
by McGirr
When I left school there were plenty of opportunities to be an apprentice but the problem there were so many kids to pick from to fill the positions that a lot missed out even having the grades that they were looking for. The employer picked people that were over qualified.
So you got a job as a labourer & worked your way up. But now you'd need at least 2 bits of paper just to dig a hole...but those jobs don't exist any more!
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I think they should also teach kids about unscrupulous employers that dont give young kids the breaks that they are allowed to have and also make them work back for no pay knowing that if they left they will get other young people in to take their place.
Sorry off topic.
Mark
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Sorry off topic.
Mark
No, very much on topic.
My youngest was working 25 hours a week for $10 an hour - hospitality - to help support her living costs at uni. Some trades - like hospitality, havnt moved on much in the last 20 years. Still many unscrupulous employers out there in many trades areas. Thats why Vocational training needs to be coordinated with a provider who can weed out these types.
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Schooling should be all about preparing them for the life ahead and yea I agree, it is failing big time.
Trevor
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I think they should also teach kids about unscrupulous employers
Mark
No doubt you've now educated the kids how to deal with these types of employers, three words come to mind, first word is "go"!! ;D
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I used to work for an employer who employed a lot of apprentices. They helped them in all sorts of ways even to the point of transferring them to a different branch if they weren't coping without their families. Fortunately this employer pays more than the normal.
I could not understand why the apprentices had to have a grade 12 certificate with good marks in maths, science and english. I was told it is the machinery they are working on now.
I understood this to a degree but there are a lot of young men who have a natural aptitude for mechanics (or what ever hands on work) but have difficulty in the class room. What of these young men??? How do we as a society help them to find their way in the world?
I have 2 girls who thankfully have found their spot in the world. But I also have a son who is 10. He has aspergers. He has an IQ 3 years above kids his age but when it comes to school work he is at a level 2 years below. He looks at the world in a 3D fashion (that is how it was explained to me). He has a photographic memory on the subjects he enjoys. But his social skills are not automatically learnt so it is a repetitive process to teach him. I wonder what will happen to him later in life dealing with a world that is relentless and unforgiving, let alone having to deal with the normal array of stuff that teenagers have to deal with.
:cheers:
Becboo
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Gillard has said herself, the one thing her government is good at is reform. I am sure there is time left for her to reform the education system as it stands, stripping as much funding from it as she can find and using the fresh surplus give low income families with school age lids a one of bonus to sell her new School Funding package to try and make us believe she is the world greatest manager
Or I could have it completely wrong
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I've been bitching for years along the same line Barrabart.
I really don't see the need to teach french/german/chinese/aboriginal etc etc etc...pointless. Why is it more important to teach science over learning how to say...operate a grader? Especially when in reality, the science knowledge probably only interest minuscule of the year/grade/form - I know it bored everyone I knew to tears!
With more & more leaving the system illiterate (don't even start me on what I think of teachers), it's time to get back to basics...the 3 R's.
Stop trying to cram so much into the kids school lives. What happens when (in the work-force), things are rushed & try to do to much at once? The job/project usually falls over, or becomes inferior!
And bring back the cane too!
So you got a job as a labourer & worked your way up. But now you'd need at least 2 bits of paper just to dig a hole...but those jobs don't exist any more!
As a teacher (Senior Leader of the Senior Secondary section of a large P-12 school in Adelaide) with experience in a range of schools and as a Deputy Principal and Prinicpal, I can honestly say it is not teachers as fault here. It is the over crowded curriculum that is imposed on schools that and the fact society who refuses to make kids and their PARENTS responsible for anything. Schools are having to teach driver safety, drug education, sex ed, road safety, anti-gambling, child protection curriculum and many others. Whilst many of these are great programs lets face it, we do these because parents aren't. Much time is taken away from the 3 R's for these and other programs.
Unfortunately teachers have little say over the curriculum, the curriculum structure and school structures. Often these decisions are made by academic types who haven't a clue about teaching modern day teens.
The other issue I take aim at is the soft approach that school systems take to academic expectations. That is, in our state at least, it is not 'done' to fail students and make them repeat a year level. I ask, what is the incentive to focus on your learning, submit assignments, study etc if you are promoted year after year regardless if you actually do the work or not. At the senior level yrs 11 & 12 this is often not the case. Now students must pass a compulsory unit of maths and 2 units of English and 1 unit of a research project.
I also take aim at the education unions who for too long have promoted the interests of under performing teachers making it very difficult to give anyone the boot. Fortunately there are many more great teachers than s##t ones.
Nowadays the cane just wouldn't work, too many teachers are scared of students and wouldn't implement it. It seems that kids would react more if we were able to confiscate their phones or block them from Facebook for a week or two.
Fortunately for the students so inclined not to go on to tertiary studies we offer a range of VET or vocational education and training subjects at our school. This is taken up by a large number of our senior students and I'd say is quite successful. This isn't a trade school - but possibly as close to it as our Education Dept will allow.
And finally, trying to recruit teachers with trade skills to pass on to kids is near impossible these days. With the $$$ a trade could make in industry, why on earth would they consider doing a teaching degree to earn less. If we want GOOD teachers we simply need to pay more, we need to make it a profession where people are beating at the door to get into, rather than leaving in droves.
End rant
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He looks at the world in a 3D fashion (that is how it was explained to me). He has a photographic memory on the subjects he enjoys. But his social skills are not automatically learnt so it is a repetitive process to teach him. I wonder what will happen to him later in life dealing with a world that is relentless and unforgiving, let alone having to deal with the normal array of stuff that teenagers have to deal with.
That is the most interesting description of aspergers I have ever heard, and a very perceptive one.
I have known 2 aspergers children who are now adults, both sucesfully integrated into the workforce, both into very specialist areas that make the most of their skills.
This required them to make the appropraite links with employers whlst at school via a very perceptive Vocational councelling person.
Hope your son has the same good fortune and has someone who can help him find his niche.
Shrek you hit the nail on the head,
1. education is a three way process. Parents, Teachers, Pupil.
2. Hard to get trades teachers, most are nearing retirement age and have trouble communicating with Gen Y (another topic in itself - I know, I have two of them).
:cheers:
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This guy challenges some old school norms. 20 minutes well spent.
Makes sense to me.
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html (http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html)
Enjoy
Grant
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The only issue I see is that we may lose a lot of potential because the children of those less educated may end up in trades and the like instead of those jobs that require a good education. My family is a good example. Mum and dad left school in yr 7 and yr 8 due to being very poor and having to look after their siblings (long story but not a happy one for both of them).
Anyways, my brother and I were pretty good at high school with my brother duxing maths and I did the same in english. Now mum and dad had no understanding of higher education and convinced us to both get trades (brother a sparkie and me a diesel mechanic). I enjoyed my trade however moved on to other things. Same with my brother.
It wasnt until we hit our late 30's that we both realised we were not hitting our potential and both returned to study and we are both doing uni part time.
So in a round about way I think we are now heading where we should have 25yrs ago. Now I am not complaining, mum did the best that she knew, but it was far too easy to leave school at yr 10 and we both wonder what we could have achieved had we gone to uni (this is in the 80's).
Our 2 older boys have never been pointed in any other direction other than uni. The oldest is looking at engineering/architecture and the younger at something to do with health.
So what i am stuffing up saying is there is huge potential from all kids and the last thing you really want is once class or group of kids leaving because their mates left.
My 5yo is a classic example of potential. The other day she was counting in the back of the car as we drove along. When asked she said she was counting trees and signs and grouping them. So she would go 9 trees, 6 signs then 10 trees, 6 signs, then 11 trees and 7 signs. We have three identical vehicles at work and she knows whose is whose by the number plates. The potential of this one is huge and as with the boys she is already being pointed in the uni direction. (try doing what she was - I failed at about 20 and 15 of each)
Education is freedom.
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I've been bitching for years along the same line Barrabart.
I really don't see the need to teach french/german/chinese/aboriginal etc etc etc...pointless. Why is it more important to teach science over learning how to say...operate a grader? Especially when in reality, the science knowledge probably only interest minuscule of the year/grade/form - I know it bored everyone I knew to tears!
With more & more leaving the system illiterate (don't even start me on what I think of teachers), it's time to get back to basics...the 3 R's.
Stop trying to cram so much into the kids school lives. What happens when (in the work-force), things are rushed & try to do to much at once? The job/project usually falls over, or becomes inferior!
And bring back the cane too!
So you got a job as a labourer & worked your way up. But now you'd need at least 2 bits of paper just to dig a hole...but those jobs don't exist any more!
Grader Teacher - "little BobnRob. Are you ready to learn the most important thing about operating a grader?"
Little BobnRob - "Sure am boss. I've been learning about gradering for a whole 3 hours and it sure is full of lots of good learnin' .... Not that pointless sciency stuff"
GT - "well the most important thing you need to know is to watch the inclinometer and make sure you don't ever get it over 30 degrees otherwise the grader will roll over and kill youl"
LBnR - "sure thing boss .. 30 degrees ... Got it"
Three weeks later as the project is pushing its deadline ...
Foreman - "Boss we got a problem. Little BobnRob is refusing to drive the grader."
Boss - "what's up ... He's been going really well"
Foreman - "you're not gonna believe this ... His old man told him I was gonna be 32 today and he reckons that it not safe to operate a grader over 30 degrees"
Science helps explain the world around us and make sense of our environment. We would use 300 inventions from the last 100 years just getting out the door each day.
Don't sell it short. Your life depends on it.
Damo
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Least you got three weeks work out of LittleBobnRob, you scientists would still be trying to start the grader, lol and ducking for cover :cheers:
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Least you got three weeks work out of LittleBobnRob, you scientists would still be trying to start the grader, lol and ducking for cover :cheers:
hehe yeah maybe but it is an attitude that sh*ts me. Scientists get bad wrap and it is really undeserved.
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hehe yeah maybe but it is an attitude that sh*ts me. Scientists get bad wrap and it is really undeserved.
Dont worry Pal, those of us with Science Degrees have long memories!!
:cheers:
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Hi Everyone,
I will put it out there first i am a teacher who loves teaching my students. I would love to raise the literacy levels in my students and I go out of my way to do. I buy books that I know my students are interested out of my own money such as camping books(that doesn't hurt too much) fishing, 4x4, motor bike books or reciepe or whatever my reluctant readers are interested in. I would have more money to do this if I didn't have to buy extra food to take in for the students who don't get anything to eat day after day, provide books and pencils and pay for some child's excursion fees as their parents don't do this. as well as buy uniforms for some of them.
I also could spend more time teaching them things that we all feel are important if i didn'thave to by law teach them to cross the road, get on a bus, what they should eat, how to have water confidence, drug education, sex education, how to deal with the social media, clean their teeth also that you sleep through the night and stay awake of a day so you CAN learn as their parents allow them to stay awake all night playing inappropriate computer games, as they come to school if they come at all and sleep until 11. Not all parents raise their children this way but many do!!!!
Also would you have been limited in your choices of career or education by a choice you made when you were 15 years old I do not think so as most young people change their minds on their career choice many times over. I know my daughter changed from an agricultural scientist to landscape architecture and this was just in the first 2 months after she decided on what uni degree she would do.
Yes the education system does not suit many students especially some boys. But if we give them the best education we can it opens many doors giving them the choice. I have a class that has 80% boys in it with many students that fall into the categories that we are talking about, but I think I can truefully say that they are all valued for who they are and they are always told that we are given different talents and all these talents are valuable. So they all enjoy school and I try to make all my classes engaging. They do thing like preparing to make a road trip around Australia with 3 mates at the end of school they have to do their research and plan for this trip.
So next time we all critical of teachers remember that many of the students are not raised and loved the way your children are. They may not have been feed since the last time the teacher fed them, or the 11 year old in sixth class got up and got their three soblings ready for school, or their parents collapsed on their bed from drinking too much the night before.
Sorry for the rant but the education of our students is something that I am passionate about, and yes it shocked me what some students have to go through as I too thought all students had the same home life as mine but they don't, but I try to make up for this in some little way.
barb
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As someone who did very well through the public system, wanted to do vet science and was accepted to melb uni science. Dropped out close to the end of first year and started working with the golden arches. My goodness, did I ever hit my straps! On the job learning and training is how I learn best and it's taken a while to work it out. I even started a business degree with monash before I trusted that the classroom environment is not for me. Now I'm doing an Accounting diploma online, I'm happy I've finally found my calling and am learning in a better way for me. I have an amazing amount of business, training and management experience a degree could never have given me yet, because I don't have that bit of paper, I struggle to get a job outside of hospitality management (anyone need a great manager who writes training modules and has a thorough working understanding of business and reporting and is studying how to crunch numbers??)
I watch my 17yo little brother who has no idea what he wants to do battle through learning in a classroom. He's only staying at school so he doesn't limit his options later. He did a VET (?) course last year. That was a waste of time (though may have been his attitude...).
My aunt, uncle and two of their kids are teachers of varying levels who've only been in the public system and mostly at tough schools. Yes, parenting has a lot to do with education, but teachers also can't just leave these kids to their own devices...they are humanitarians!
We have two young kids and their education is important to me. It's one of the greatest gifts I can give them. I am seriously considering homeschooling, or my other preference would be a Montessori style school.
Parents need to take responsibility for their kids education. Teachers give them the tools and get the kids started. Teachers shouldn't have to be giving kids their first education on where babies come from or how to tie their shoelaces, but they are and that's only going to get worse.
Lil :)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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of course they do, the point is we need scientists, tradesmen, labourers and a whole lot more to make the world go round and in my view they are all as important as one an other. All TIC, wasnt meant to offend
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No offence taken macca, I just enjoy stirring the pot!! >:D
As all scientists kno, all theories deserve due concideration.
Barb, youre a champion, as are 98% of all teachers/lecturers I kno, dedicated to their profession.
:cheers:
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Schooling should be all about preparing them for the life ahead and yea I agree, it is failing big time.
Trevor
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our kids go to a Steiner school and we all love it [ i wish i went to one ]i don't like the public system and never have ,it doesn't teach respect ... doesn't teach about life .... doesn't teach about options ... puts to much emphases on the high school cert .Does not teach how to think outside the square and certainly dosnt develop the imagination.
Steiner dosnt PUSH ,PUSH ,PUSH instead they develop a love for learning and the child develops at THEIR pace .
my kid turns 9 in a few weeks ... couldnt read 6 months ago ... then in a 4-6 week period he learnt how to read ie it all came together . NOW he dosnt put books down .he has read in the last 4 months ..the magic pudding... the complete Chronicals of nania ... Journey to the centre of the earth .. Blinky bill ... snugle pot and cuddle pie ... the muddle headed wombat ... the prince and the pourper ... the BFG and is one of the top spellers in his class .
YES i can hear people critasizing but go and have a look for yourself and talk to the teachers ... parents and the students .
everytime i hear a discusion on education and how to fix it 99% of the time steiner is already doing it that way .
they have an emphases on playing outside in the sun.They dont like COMPUTER GAMES and TELEVISION .They go camping 4-5 times a year .
i realise its not for everybody BUT we love it .
craig
oh and shreck4 ... i agree 100%
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I think the important thing, from reading all the comments, is that the parents take an interest in the schooling. Whether its steiner like craigs, christian like ours, or the public system, if you stay focused and attentive and are ready to step in when needed, and the kid is interested, it doesnt REALLY matter.
A teacher friend in the system says the quality of the school really comes down to the principal and how connected to the school they are.
cheers all.
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That is the most interesting description of aspergers I have ever heard, and a very perceptive one.
I have known 2 aspergers children who are now adults, both sucesfully integrated into the workforce, both into very specialist areas that make the most of their skills.
This required them to make the appropraite links with employers whlst at school via a very perceptive Vocational councelling person.
Hope your son has the same good fortune and has someone who can help him find his niche.
So do I Mace!!
Don't get me wrong people .... my son is awesome and he challenges me everyday to explain what the rest of us take for granted..... the knowledge of body language, tone of voice, of why people are the way they are, why they think like that, why they react like that. Footrot Flats is great!!
The Weipa School is incredible, yes I know but it is a little hick school in hickville. They have the best facilities i have seen to educate these kids. The teachers in the special education unit are fantastic.... I am their biggest fan I think.
We came from Townsville. Lots of schools there both public and private. None have the resources or teachers that Weipa does.
One day Mace I would love to sit down and have a good talk to you about the Aspies you know if that is ok.
Cheers
Becboo
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Worst govt decision ever to get rid of tech schools, some of us are old enough to remember when they existed.
Yep.
That decision was a disgrace. Many pleaded with them, but they went ahead anyway. The academics at the helm decided everyone should aspire to a tertiary education. It was part of the push to become "The Clever Country".............how ironic...........
It was acknowledged as the wrong decision some time later, but the damage was done.
My old tech. school site is now a Bunnings...........
Geoff
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I think if a child wants to learn its does not matter what school they go to. Every child is different, they all have different learning capacities.
Look at us as adults we all went to different schools and all work in different fields. Some of us are brighter and more intellectual than others. Some subjects at school I could do easy others I could not.
My kids, who have left school, would never become doctors or lawyers but I was happy with the public system. I think it also boils down to the teachers who have a passion for their job.
Mark
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Not having any kids myself ( body couldn't complete the mission ) ... I always wish that someone had taught me more life skills in school. Yes the 3 r's are important. I'd have loved a few skills in budgeting, comparison shopping (insurance, service providers, etc), menu planning, dog raising, car maintenance, route planning, perhaps even things like making bread, soap making, being self sufficient, how to conduct ones self in an interview, drive a car, personal hygiene, caring and sharing ... things we need day to day though life.
I hardly use advanced maths and barely use my grade 12 accounting any more. I did do a certificate 3 in my late thirties to get the job I felt sure I wanted and hope to do more courses as I get older so that I don't feel like I'm "working" any more.
None of this has helped me get a career in Professional Camping though. Pity. I reckon that's the one thing I'd be very good at.
Kit_e
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My young cousin is a good kid. Not the smartest, but quite gifted musically, abke to hold a mature conversation, quite worldly wise.
He's a bit dyslexic some might say. (Not really)
He was worried about failing school. The teacher told him, "doesn't matter, no problem if you can't spell, (can't read properly) its only 5% of the mark. Its not important. Besides, there's always spell check."
Bloody hell
How scary is that.
How many can't read or write because its only 5% of the mark and there's always spell check. Scary
what a thing to tell a kid.
Needless to say he hasnt reached his potential.
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Our kids did the Steiner School system in primary but our school didn't do secondary and we weren't about to move to Melbourne for them to do so .They then went to the high school where my wife has now taught for 34 years .Both have gone on to uni as they wanted ,both to become teachers like Mum ! They have faith in the system and hope to teach at Mum's school which offers a lot of of non-Uni entry courses ,mentoring into industry etc. But I would agree , the fundamental problem is money !!!!! --TAFE being ripped to pieces with the loss of thousands of jobs ,yet , we give hundreds of millions to carmakers to protect 300 jobs to producing Aussie cars no-one wants ,like hybrids ! .We could pay all our teachers an extra 20% to make the career competitive if we got out of Afghanistan tomorrow .What have we wasted on overseas wars and aid to countries we will never have anything to do with .
.Spend the dwindling dollars at home --Aussies in Aussie jobs ,making producst that Aussies want --we need manufacturing jobs badly --bugger cheap iron ore and gas for China to make more cheap crap for $2 shops to sell to aussies that are out of jobs !!!
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producing Aussie cars no-one wants ,like hybrids ! .
That would be falcons, not hybrids.
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our kids go to a Steiner school and we all love it [ i wish i went to one ]i don't like the public system and never have ,it doesn't teach respect ... doesn't teach about life .... doesn't teach about options ... puts to much emphases on the high school cert .Does not teach how to think outside the square and certainly dosnt develop the imagination.
Steiner dosnt PUSH ,PUSH ,PUSH instead they develop a love for learning and the child develops at THEIR pace .
craig
oh and shreck4 ... i agree 100%
Hi Craig,
You have certainly generalised too much there. I teach at a government secondary school and our main 'thing' here is respect; for each other, yourself and the environment. Out of 450 kids we have over 100 completing their school-based apprenticeship, so these kids are out in the community in various careers working 1 day a week for 12 to 18 months to gain real experience and find out what works for them. This ranges from farm hands to vet surgeries...and this includes the kids who go on to complete their VCE, not just the VET or VCAL students. For a small school we offer sooooo much for the kids it's not funny - I wish I could go back to high school again!
We have a local Steiner school and I agree in everything you said they do. Luckily for them, they have a large say in how their curriculum works, without having the government forcing it down their throat! We looked at the Steiner school for our own kids but found it a bit too pricey.
I went to Uni when I was 27 and married with 2 kids to do my teaching degree and I'm pretty disgusted with how the government treats government schools. In fact I'm almost to the point where I believe there's a conspiracy going on here where the government is in fact trying to kill off it's own schools. Our premier decided one of his first moves in government was to take over $450million away from government school funding and give an extra $200+ million towards the private system. Take from the poor and give to the rich? It's little wonder we struggle to compete with the rich schools, most programs you want to run cost money and families just don't have that much...and then we have limited power (thanks to the government) with kids and PARENTS who have no respect for anyone and we're forced to keep them to make the government look good. Did you know two thirds of school funding goes to the private sector who educate one third of our students???
I have to stop, I've lost track a bit! Yes education needs to improve but where to begin ???
Back to correcting work while my family sleeps...
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I wanna know how a private school can have $18 MILLION debt??
Private school may shut with $18m debt
One of the largest private schools in Melbourne's outer western suburbs is facing closure after racking up debts of $18 million, leaving more than 1000 students in the lurch.
Mowbray College, which has three campuses in Melton and Caroline Springs, has gone into administration, with anxious parents already struggling to find alternative schools in the burgeoning growth corridor.
The school has been plagued by industrial turmoil, bullying claims and a rapid turnover of senior staff in recent years.
It received almost $15 million from the state and federal governments in 2010 according to the My School website, despite making a loss of almost $2.5 million the previous year.
Mowbray College chairperson Tracey MacKenzie said the school's cash flow had become critical.
Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/private-school-may-shut-with-18m-debt-20120529-1zgp1.html#ixzz1wGUmb165 (http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/private-school-may-shut-with-18m-debt-20120529-1zgp1.html#ixzz1wGUmb165)
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I wanna know how a private school can have $18 MILLION debt??
Yeah I can't wait to read the outcome of this one! Another Craig Thompson in the mix or just crap management?
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Yeah I can't wait to read the outcome of this one! Another Craig Thompson in the mix or just crap management?
I cant imagine what the rates of pay were for the teachers... 500k ea?
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The prep-to-year-12 school has three campuses in Caroline Springs and Melton. It received almost $15 million from the state and federal governments in 2010, according to the My School website, and charges between $7696 and $10,693 a year in fees.
Marina Adam, whose son Patrick is in year 10, said she was horrified to learn at Monday's meeting that the school had accrued $2.4 million of debt in unpaid fees alone.
''I always pay my school fees, so why not make others pay for them?'' Ms Adam said.
She believed if the board had better managed the school's finances, the state and federal governments would have been more likely to bail it out.
Mowbray College's perilous financial situation was known as early as 2009, with an audit lodged with the Australian Securities and Investments Commission revealing a $2.4 million loss, up from a loss of $779,313 the year before.
''Should enrolment income rapidly decline or the bank withdraw their support of the college, there is uncertainty whether Mowbray
Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/education/crushing-debt-leaves-private-school-struggling-20120529-1zhfv.html#ixzz1wJD3Lyhl (http://www.theage.com.au/national/education/crushing-debt-leaves-private-school-struggling-20120529-1zhfv.html#ixzz1wJD3Lyhl)
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Just read the same article myself.
Their unpaid fees ($2.4m) is high, but not off the scale high. They probably receive income via fees of an extra $9m on top of thier State & Federal Government payments, so their total income would be approx $24 million.
So, 10% of their fees are unpaid.
My previous boss, the business Manager of another private school (catholic system) used to aim for an unpaid fees rate of 5%. It was usually just above this.
So, partially the cause, but also perhaps a bit of trying to grow to big, too quick (new campuses, capital expenditure, borrowings!!).
We have freinds in Caroline Springs whos two youngest went to there about 5 years ago, they reckoned it was a great, caring school.
:cheers:
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I don't particularly care whether Mowbray continues or not .If you step outside the system ,you accept more responsibility for your kids futures, and that of the school they attend . My concern would be for gov't owned and operated schools in the area , not some private school for cashed -up bogans .
The best result for the Vic Govt would be to buy the school at any subsequent Mortgagees auction and turn it into a normal state-run school ,at probably cheaper than replacement cost !! The kids at Mowbray can drift off to the 30-odd private schools that offered help. The smarter ones will get picked up by another school looking to improve their Enter percentages.The others will battle it out as best they can, looking for another outer suburban private school.
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The smarter ones will get picked up by another school looking to improve their Enter percentages.
This is where the whole education system is going wrong IMO. It is all about how your school is doing on this scale so the kids that need a bit more help get left behind. I believe people make too much of a deal out of going to uni. I think it's great that kids can remember that much stuff they get it right on their exams. BUT the kids who are practical / musical / theatrical are forgotten about. Unless they are lucky enough to get a teacher that cares for that year. There are a lot of teachers who do but there are also a lot that don't give a stuff and have forgotten about the impact they have on young minds.
When we leave Weipa in a year or 2 and move to Cairns or Townsville, that will be my greatest challenge to find a school that has the capabilities and care to help educate my son. So he can read and write, do maths well enough to pay his bills, budget and not get ripped off. That is what I hope for him. I believe the rest will work itself out when he is ready. With him, we may have him at home longer and support him longer than his big sisters because of his aspergers. And that is fine because I am his mum!
It is a shame we can't get all the teachers who care and put them in a system that cares as well
:cheers:
Becboo
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The best result for the Vic Govt would be to buy the school at any subsequent Mortgagees auction and turn it into a normal state-run school ,at probably cheaper than replacement cost
agree whole heartedly!!! but i dont even see them discussing this as an option.. Which is extremely strange... Maybe I see it as too obvious a logic for a Gov to work out.
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HI markymark
yes i agree with u 100 % and my statement is to general or broad a statement , i was going to clarify but it got lost in the mix . ;D
I do hear good stories from the public system as i have a few friends that are teachers and principals BUT i mostly hear [ and not by them ] horror stories ie teachers threatend with knifes ..... and bashing? parents who dont give a damm about the school or how or what there kids are learning or if there even at school ,no teacher respect ...... bullying and NOTHING done about it ,kids coming to school with so many NITS that u can see them jumping around .i also have a friend that is a child physiologist and what she tells me sends shivers up my spine . taking about who they had sex with .... and these guys are as young as twelve .
i realise that not all schools are like this espeacialy the smaller schools ;D and I'm not one to shelter my kids from life or reality but there is a time when a kid NEEDS to be a kid . I reckon there is way to much adultising of our kids as well but thats another can of worms
becboo
its a shame we cant put all the teachers who care into a system that cares
this IS another reason we went with steiner .... the teachers do care and are very involved with the kids in fact they basically have the same teacher all the way through the primary years and become friends of the family and interact out side the school .
craig
on further thinking i reakon the government should be ashamed of themselves when it comes to education in this country . 2/3 of the money going to the private schools is discusting .pushing public teachers to the limit ... not enough support ....way to much POLITICAL CORECTNESS . im thinking here lies the reason why i stay away from the public system
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I have watched with dismay over the past 30+ years at the changing face of my old high school. It was and still is an Agricultural High School and has always been selective. However in my day we got taught Farm Mechanics as a compulsory subject so by them time we left school regardless of where we went afterwards we could drive a tractor and fix it as well. I'm sure one of my classmates who is an astro physics expert at Cambridge doesn't have much use for the knowledge but he still has it. Whilst cadets was not compulsory most joined and we punched above our weight on the sporting field as well as academically, usually placing well in state competitions. These days the emphasis is on the academic excellence and there's hardly an Australian name at the school and just recently Blacktown High beat them in debating....Ah "The Boss", as we used to call the principal, would be spinning in his grave....
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I've been thinking for two pages of comments on whether I should write something or not - but have decided to. My wife is a teacher and I used to be a teacher.
There are three facets to good teaching 1) good teachers, 2) good Parents, and 3) good Curriculum
Kids get out of school not learning to read very well or string a written sentence together because the curriculum doesn't demand that it be taught as rigorously as it used to be. The curriculum, especially here in SA, has been dramatically dumbed down and as a comment above said - you don't need to read, write, or add up to pass anymore - everyone goes up. Being able to re-submit failed work to try and get a pass mark is another issue - no one is allowed to fail anymore!?!? Furthermore not adapting curriculum to today's relevant world - a perfect exxample is taking away the tech schools - not every kid wants to go to uni!
The majority of teachers out there are excellent, put in more hours than what are required and take an interest in every childs learning. Unfortunatly there are some teachers out there that try and do as little as possible, and there are schools out there that don't support their teachers when it comes to behaviour management. However, not enough is being done to recruit and retain good teachers. Did you know that a teacher's salary used to be the same as politicians - now teacher's are about half!! Politicians kkep saying they need pay rises to attract quality politicians - well what about teachers you knobs!!!
Parents have a huge influence. Our son (6 yrs old) was sent to time out in class and had a note put in his diary from the teacher. We took away all his teddy's that he sleeps with, plus absolutely no treats - both for one week, and had a meeting with the teacher, with him present, to discuss a reason for his behaviour and also a positive outcomes for the future. At the school where I used to work, often when we didn't pick a kid in a sporting team (I was a PE teacher) because of their non attendance at training, or poor on field behaviour, and we used to get phoned up and abused by the parents who thought their kid was Michael Jordan and should play - regardless of their behaviour!
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Yeah I can't wait to read the outcome of this one! Another Craig Thompson in the mix or just crap management?
Interesting...
The college's administrator, Jim Downey, told ABC 774 that the private school had $2 million in unpaid fees and may have to sue parents to collect them.
He said several schools had approached him about taking over Mowbray College, but that would have to wait until at least February. YOUR KIDDING?
He said the school had a payroll of $500,000 a fortnight.
The Mowbray Action Group is calling for a formal inquiry into how the school accrued $18 million of debt.
Parent Leonie Harrison, whose husband was one of the founding students at Mowbray, said the school had sufficient enrollments to sustain keeping open at least two campuses.
"It really has gone very wrong - it should never have happened," she said. "Two months ago was when we were first told there would need to be some consolidation due to debt.
"Prior to that last day of term we had no idea. We knew we had some financial worries but we didn't realise that would mean closing down campuses."
Ms Harrison said her parents-in-law had been among a group of parents who had fought to have an independent school in the western suburbs.
Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/final-stand-at-for-sale-mowbray-20120606-1zv0k.html#ixzz1wyfua2VU (http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/final-stand-at-for-sale-mowbray-20120606-1zv0k.html#ixzz1wyfua2VU)