MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Snow on November 03, 2011, 07:05:09 PM
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It seems there are some that there are a few camps here when it comes to chain saw apparel. Rather than hijack the odd thread to air their opinions I thought i would give you lot a sand pit to wrestle in.
So my question is; Should there be a legislated minimum level of PPE required to use a saw??
Play nice and respect each others opinion.
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It is legislated.
It's not spelt out simply, but risk needs to be managed - PCBU would be easily prosecuted, especially in NSW (incident or not). I can detail more if need be!
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Gee Mr. Snow,
I've only known PPE to be Personal Performance Evaluation.
Hmmm, maybe not so different.
Chain saws. Lovely devices for modifying or removing things they shouldn't.
Should it be up to the individuals immediate family since they are the ones that will have to go through the trauma? The one weilding the saw will just suffer the physical pain unless they involve someone else.
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Short answer is No.
Why?
Darwin will help the survivors.
Impossible to police for a start,
Cant change some peoples attitudes,
D**khead factor.
Perhaps a more appropriate question is
"Should common sense be a compulsory school subject?"
Back to the PPE-
Anyone who has industrial deafness or who has been to Casualty to get some sawdust out of their eye will use PPE.
I know I do.
Dan, can you elaborate? Does this extend further than the first 2 pages of the manual?
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Hi,
if you hold a ticket and don't use PPE you can lose the ticket or void any insurance you hold. (have just done the trim and crosscut ticket course)
My opinion is that it is too tricky to totally legislate, where do you draw the line where electric chainsaws come in?
Our 4wd club rules require the operator of a saw to be ticketed, to be ticketed you must wear PPE or risk possible legal consequences.
So in a nutshell; not for private use.
cheers
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PPE?
I use DPT (double plugger thongs) MOS (me old sunnies) and KEFA ( Keep every F$%^er away) ;D
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I'm not fussed what the weekend cutters do but as I have an operators ticket I use PPE every time I operate a saw. If other people want to be heroes then that's their prerogative.
Incidentally, I have tinnitus from working in rock and roll when I was younger. Back then I said she’ll be right and didn’t wear ear muffs. I am a little wiser now.
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Nothing can be done for private use, there is no government body to regulate (this can't change, our government does not have a process for this).
Workcover, Worksafe (the regulator) etc: WHS Act 2011 and the WHS Regulation 2012 stipulate that risk needs to be managed (to put it super simply!). An employer ( a PCBU - Persons Conducting a Business or Undertaking) needs to provide a safe workplace, supervision and training / instruction. These three points are the most commonly, and easily prosecuted against.
There's a few changes due in Jan 1st 2012, when the harmonisation legislation is implemented. Currently each state and territory has similar but different pieces of legislation. NSW is currently the OHS Act 2000 and the OHS Reg 2001 (though to fast track some of the changes a few sections have been 'bridged', due diligence for officers for example).
So to put it very simply; if an employer failed to provide PPE for an employee using a chainsaw the employer could very easily be prosecuted (come Jan 1 there doesn'teven need to be an incident) - what is reasonably practicable? Is it reasonable to expect an employer to provide chaps, safety glasses gloves and steel caps for an employee tasked with using a chainsaw? Is it practical for an employer to provide this and 'wear the costs associated = Yes.
There's a few ways to get to the result, a risk assessment (which is required for any task deemed 'hazardous' and I would certainly classify chainsaw use as hazardous) would identify the risk, appropriate controls would be the use of PPE to minimise the risk of harm, along with training etc.
I could go on forever, I love this stuff. :D
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PPE?
I use DPT (double plugger thongs) MOS (me old sunnies) and KEFA ( Keep every F$%^er away) ;D
Nice one......and anyone not using double pluggers are a bloody idiot. !!!!!!! ;D ;D
PPE.......for all the " responsible " ones....do you use ear muffs....safety glasses....hard hat....steel capped safety boots....chaps....leather gloves....?????...every time you use the saw. ???
If not, you can't really complain about the " irresponsible " ones who use some or none of the above ...
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Common sense.............it's not that hard is it,.?????
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I can also add, that now days Product Stewardship is a relatively big deal for OEMs (Original Equipment Manufacturers). So think about Husqvarna and Stihl for a moment. They cannot sell their equipment without particular warnings and safety features, even the shop won't let you have it without a demonstration. These points are designed to educate the user.
This is Product Stewardship, an OEM is held accountable to ensure they provide a safe piece of equipment and instruction / training.
Allthought it's not clear and simple as some folk may like it, it is very much legislated.
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Common sense.............it's not that hard is it,.?????
Yes, I make a good living out of it so shhh, don't tell anyone to think before they act! ;D
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Dan, you know where I work......and I was only talking about weekend warriors !!!
As an employee or employer, then things change drastically.....as they should...
I'm surprised ( if you applied the same sort of OH&S As we have) that employers let their staff use a chainsaw at all. ??
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Product Stewardship makes sense, but I assume it falls down when someone borrows the equipment (lender open to prosecution?). 2nd hand?
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Just to confirm my own curiosity, there is a Code of Practice in QLD for chainsaw operations. Presently this is admissible in court so you'd struggle to demonstrate why it was safe to ignore this Code. Come Jan 1st Codes of Practice are law in all states and territories.
There's also a standard AS/NZS 4453.3:1997 Protective clothing for users of hand held chainsaws. Part3: Protective legwear.
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Product Stewardship makes sense, but I assume it falls down when someone borrows the equipment (lender open to prosecution?). 2nd hand?
They could be, it would be under common law and the owners duty of care (I'm not coheres with common law so I may be talking out of school here). Very American, it would be a precedence case in Australia (super crafty lawyers!).
Dan, you know where I work......and I was only talking about weekend warriors !!!
As an employee or employer, then things change drastically.....as they should...
I'm surprised ( if you applied the same sort of OH&S As we have) that employers let their staff use a chainsaw at all. ??
I'm amazed they let you loose! ;D
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Only on weekend release. !!!! ;D ;D
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I can also add, that now days Product Stewardship is a relatively big deal for OEMs (Original Equipment Manufacturers). So think about Husqvarna and Stihl for a moment. They cannot sell their equipment without particular warnings and safety features, even the shop won't let you have it without a demonstration. These points are designed to educate the user.
This is Product Stewardship, an OEM is held accountable to ensure they provide a safe piece of equipment and instruction / training.
Allthought it's not clear and simple as some folk may like it, it is very much legislated.
I sat for months turning simple safe work method statements into 20 page novels because the ofsc got on this bandwagon. Also scared away good subbies because of our company requirements in regards to this." Duty of care" is legislated but Shit you have to do some paperwork to satisfy these 3 words!
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More emphasis needs to made on wearing PPE even for the backyard boys an grandpas. I have nursed far too many chain saw, circular saw, concrete saw, drill accident victims over the last 6 years. And I have injuries to every body part (even the pink bits) because of these pieces of machinery being used inappropriately and without adequate protection.
the Nurse
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Many large organisations that have big uni-grad type safety functional training programs tend to create a rod for their own back by trying to better themselves and 'pioneer' safety, with straight out of school subject matter experts.
People with experience in the profession, I class experience as people who have worked outside the profession, are few and far between. There's plenty of safety cops out there - also known as cowboys (they seem to know everything and are often very ineffective and most folk seem to hate them!).
Practical interpretation of the Act is where it's easy to get caught up, if it doesn't achieve anything (some paper work doesn't achieve anything, or it loses it's designed effect quickly) it shouldn't be implemented.
I'd be pretty nervous if I was an officer of a corporation, you can get directors liability insurance which will assist in the event of a prosecution; but it won't stop you going to gaol.
Everyone hates it 'this extra safety crap is bullShit' I hear it every day, on every site, in every industry. People blame the employer, or the safety bloke or the manager etc. The law is the law, if you need someone to blame - blame morons who go to work affected by drugs or alcohol (etc.). Seriously freaking ridiculous the amount of people that are affected but substances whilst at work.
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(http://smileyicons.net/s/108.gif)
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Should there be a legislated minimum level of PPE required to use a saw??
No, and geez I hope it never happens, although the chances of getting caught when the timber cutting normally gets done in the middle of the bush would be slim.
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It seems there are some that there are a few camps here when it comes to chain saw apparel. Rather than hijack the odd thread to air their opinions I thought i would give you lot a sand pit to wrestle in.
So my question is; Should there be a legislated minimum level of PPE required to use a saw??
Play nice and respect each others opinion.
So I have read the thread so I'll ask where. In the bush or for work purposes or at home.
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Yeah it would likely be safer for joe average to use ppe. It would no doubt be safer if Jo Average didn't use a chainsaw at all. Where do we draw the line.
I'll draw my line wherever I want. I dont think that makes me a "hero". You got a different line to me, that's great for you.
If your job requires you to use a piece of machinery and are told to use a certain set of PPE then you do what what your paid to do.
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More emphasis needs to made on wearing PPE even for the backyard boys an grandpas. I have nursed far too many chain saw, circular saw, concrete saw, drill accident victims over the last 6 years. And I have injuries to every body part (even the pink bits) because of these pieces of machinery being used inappropriately and without adequate protection.
the Nurse
Is there some sort of PPE that provides adequate protection for the PP then.
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I see so many dayglo shirts on people these days its just the norm.
It no longer stands out so whats the point???
Drive along any city street and you see so many signs that all the warning are no longer valid they just blend in as another sign.
We are so "overinformed" its not funny.
When is legislation going to allow for quality judgement?
If you do something silly and get hurt then the only person accountable should be you.
If I'm caught drink driving when someone else hits me its my fault as I should not have been on the road.
So If I'm using a chainsaw without ppe, shouldn't any incidents be my fault?
How about a system where "idiot" pays.
If I go walkabout without adequate supplies, by all means, save me, but give a bill for my actions.....Rescues aren't cheap.
If I cut my leg using a chainsaw without ppe, bill me for the ambos hospital etc.
Start charging stupid people instead of encouraging them...........
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I always use the fancy pants (as my kids cal them) along with ear and eye protection.
I am trained and hold a trim and cross cut ticket. Even doing maintenance if the chain is going to spin then the gear goes on.
In the shed using tools the same applies there too. My kids even have safety glasses and ear muffs for the shed.
$100 for chaps sure beats $1000's in rehab or medical bills.
Wear it or lose it.
If I see you with out it I have a duty of care to tell you that you are doing the wrong thing but after that it is up to you.
Regards
Crisp Image
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Aren't we enough of a nanny state as it is? Before long I'll need a ticket and proper training to go to the toilet safely.
Recently at my work a howto sign has gone up on every set of stairs to explain the rules of using the stairs.
Seriously, we are getting more American my the day and that isn't where I want to be any time soon.
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I think you cannot legislate over personal protection - just impossible to police it.
"Oh dear mr Nob - did you forget to put your safety goggles on before cutting that tree down?"
"No way miss nurse - had em on - didn't work" - cannot be done effectively.
What should be done is legislate the mandatory safety courses for the machinery that is most dangerous - like chainsaws - I have used one for many years off and on so feel quite comfortable using them but have seen many back yarders pick one up for the first time and do every thing possibly wrong that endangers their safety - The likes of bunnings etc selling chainsaws is ridiculous i think - have to have someone with experience selling them - no different to guns in that respect.
I also advocate the use of PPE in the home - I hate them but I always wear earmuffs when using powertools including mower and brushcutter and I have a set for each of my boys if they want to be in the vacinity also they have to wear them as their ears /eyes are in better condition than mine so I want that to stay that way.
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Aren't we enough of a nanny state as it is? Before long I'll need a ticket and proper training to go to the toilet safely.
Recently at my work a howto sign has gone up on every set of stairs to explain the rules of using the stairs.
Seriously, we are getting more American my the day and that isn't where I want to be any time soon.
Although I agree absolutely entirely with what you have said, I must ask.................
Did the person putting the sign up have the appropriate PPe on at the time????
;D ;D ;D
I'll soon have a yankee flag to go with the myswag flag ???
Brian
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Many large organisations that have big uni-grad type safety functional training programs tend to create a rod for their own back by trying to better themselves and 'pioneer' safety, with straight out of school subject matter experts.
People with experience in the profession, I class experience as people who have worked outside the profession, are few and far between. There's plenty of safety cops out there - also known as cowboys (they seem to know everything and are often very ineffective and most folk seem to hate them!).
Practical interpretation of the Act is where it's easy to get caught up, if it doesn't achieve anything (some paper work doesn't achieve anything, or it loses it's designed effect quickly) it shouldn't be implemented.
I'd be pretty nervous if I was an officer of a corporation, you can get directors liability insurance which will assist in the event of a prosecution; but it won't stop you going to gaol.
Everyone hates it 'this extra safety crap is bull****' I hear it every day, on every site, in every industry. People blame the employer, or the safety bloke or the manager etc. The law is the law, if you need someone to blame - blame morons who go to work affected by drugs or alcohol (etc.). Seriously freaking ridiculous the amount of people that are affected but substances whilst at work.
Very well written, and unfortunately far to common.
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Legislation is not always the answer, as someone said earlier hard to catch people out in the bush if they arnt doing what they are supposed too and this is where the risk of threat to life is increased due to geographic isolation.....
I think the important thing here is Education!! People need to know the dangers associated with using a chainsaw and the risk of not using appropriate PPE...
It drives me insane when I see adds on tv and backyard shows where people dont wear PPE when using the chainsaw, then they pick up a circular saw or some other thing and instantly on goes all the PPE, wat the????
Knowing how to use a saw properly helps reduce injury, that is absoloutely correct and been shown how to hold it is not enough. Anyone who has got their ticket will know how much they learnt (and many of those would have been using saws already) There are different stances for different cuts and it it is dependant on where the timber is you are cutting, ther is awareness of the environment you are in, the people around you, needing to know how the timber is going to react when you cut it, where are the tension poinjts, will the weight shift the timber once its cut, will the branch shift.... plenty of things that can knock you on the head because you have been sawing..... Applying the chainbreak all the time so there are no accidents....... Im going on and on and I could say a lot more!
Correct PPE and training is essential for using chainsaws, dont risk your life or that of others. Information and education thats what I think is the key, especially for those of us that like been miles away from civilisation and hospitals and ambulances.....
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Recently at my work a howto sign has gone up on every set of stairs to explain the rules of using the stairs.
This is what I mean by cowboys, your safety person needs to be shot. This kind of 'over doing it' is what gives safety a bad name. There's a fine line, and if you're constructive enough with your reasons for not deeming a hazard as a significant enough risk (like a staircase) and you can show you've acted on serious risks, the employer will be able to demonstrate their due diligence.
When I implement a measure, my credibility is on the line - so the reason for implementation needs to be very, very particular and effective.
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Im a civil engineer working for a top tier company that has a couple of billion dollar of work at hand, in particular roads. Ive been responsible for the management of killing trees (essentially thats what it is) for the last three years on four different large scale road projects. To use a chainsaw on any on my sites there are a few things that needs to be done...
As far as PPE:
Long sleeve shirt
Long pants
Cut proof chaps
Safety boots
Hard hat
Ear protection
DOUBLE eye protection (safety glases and face shield)
Gloves
These are just normal site rules.
You need to have a ticket, AND be competancy assessed. That means once youve signed onto and unsderstand the SWMS someone with the equivelent ticket or higher needs to watch you work and see if you actually know what you are doing. You can see people a mile off what havent got a clue when you watch guys on saws for a living.
Now to climb a tree... thats a whole different ball game
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This bloke dont wear leather chaps bu he does were a leather mask :cup:
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Now do I think PPE should be mandatory....
Im fully qualified to cross cut and fell trees, I regularly use chainsaws at work for fun and on weekends. My old man runs a buisness that sells Sthil saws and I just brought a new one myself (cost price of course).
Im a firm beliver that if you are going to use a saw you do so at your own risk. Ill wear the full suite at work. On weekends, safety boots, long pants, safety glasses (my everyday sunnies are medium impact AS1337), chaps and ear protection if Im going to be on a saw for a while...anything less and if bad things happen you is serious sh!t
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Recently at my work a howto sign has gone up on every set of stairs to explain the rules of using the stairs.
So, what are the rules?
As for PPE, people will do what they want regardless...
We dont need more rules protecting ourselves from ourselves.. it helps with natural selection.
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throw a sideways one in.. What about the poor buggers that havnt had someone to show them, or havnt grown up with saws, even tools in general (which there are more of these days). They go to the shop, buy a chainsaw and then hoe into it... hmmm now they havnt had the opportunity to learn common sense with practical items and could be quite smart in other areas.... legislation, education and definitely PPE would help them
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I don't think this is limited to chainsaws. Any angle grinder, circular saw etc can inflict the same damage. I wonder how the power tool companies and Bunnings can get away without a duty of care...
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People are using the term "common sense". No such thing, and after seeing the children of a lesser god where I work, neither would anyone else.
Common means there is a lot of it about. This is not the case. There is good sense and nonsense.
I don't use a saw a lot but when I do I don't have on all the gear. I use ear and eye protection for jobs involving power tools and I work in safety boots all the time anyway.
Never forget the time I was holding a rail straight for the old man to shape the end for use as a fence stay.
The old bloke has done decades of fencing and scrub cutting so his saw work is pretty handy, but he bumped the saw on the nose coming in and it bucked forward towards my face. Luckily he was able to hold it and I was smart enough to be far enough down the rail so he couldn't reach me.
That would have been one cool scar if it ever healed, but it shows how easily things can go wrong.
That being said I think most of us would have seen someone operating a saw who probably should not have been.
Like the guy I was fencing with a while back, had a new saw, not too handy with it but loved to use it. We put in two posts to swing a gate and I joked that he should check to see if they were in line, just the two of them. He did.
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I don't think this is limited to chainsaws. Any angle grinder, circular saw etc can inflict the same damage.
I was thinking about that too. But where do you draw the line? Screwdrivers, hammers, plyers, nailfiles, reams of paper, rubber gloves
I wonder how the power tool companies and Bunnings can get away without a duty of care...
would be interesting to see someone take that one to court, but then if they won, I don't think there'd be *any* tool left forsale anywhere in australia.
There has to be a point in time when people take responsibililty for their own actions. maybe I'm on the good Shit expecting this to happen one day... (http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd234/cremo1/Smileys/keef.gif)
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throw a stick of dynamite in here, maybe you shouldnt be able to buy one without a license?
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If it is mandatory to use PPE in the workplace for any reason than do it or lose your job. That is how I feel about it anyway.
In this world we live in there is NO excuse for someone who buys a hand power tool (or any other tool for that matter) and NOT be able to properly use it. The internet alone has millions of videos on how to use almost every sort of tool there is on the market. And if someone does not have the internet then they need to just ask around and I' am sure they will know someone who can show them how to properly use a tool.
Bill and Morag
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maybe you shouldnt be able to buy one without a license?
I'll go one step further, you should need a licence to procreate
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I'll go one step further, you should need a licence to procreate
Might be the first time I would go D.U.I.........
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I'll go one step further, you should need a licence to procreate
As long as you don't need one to practice. ;D
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As long as you don't need one to practice. ;D
Joolia will find a way to tax that too
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I don't think this is limited to chainsaws. Any angle grinder, circular saw etc can inflict the same damage. I wonder how the power tool companies and Bunnings can get away without a duty of care...
especially the old 9" , they kick like a mule, can be very dangerous in the wrong hands.
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And people wonder why things (or services) are so dear in OZ......
Said it before, this country's going down the crapper.
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Legislation is not always the answer, as someone said earlier hard to catch people out in the bush if they arnt doing what they are supposed too and this is where the risk of threat to life is increased due to geographic isolation.....
I think the important thing here is Education!! People need to know the dangers associated with using a chainsaw and the risk of not using appropriate PPE...
Can only agree, it is not a matter of "catching" people out but a matter of informing them of the danger. You will never convince everyone of the need for certain things to be done but they need to be aware of the consequences of not doing something - especially of they are employed to do a job.
The employer and right down the work chain are responsible for safety and unfortunately it sometimes takes an accident to convince some of the need for safety as well as their personal liability for that safety.
For personal use the decision is yours if you hurt yourself, if you hurt someone else it is an entirely different story. Common sense generally covers most safety aspects, training / education covers most others.
Seat belts are a classic example but you still see people who do not use them.
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There are too many laws and restrictions anyway .
Any legal restrictions will just give the government an excuse to create another department to spend our money for us.
I fervently believe Ringo Starr's first and only law ; "Anything a government touches turns to s##t" and I cannot think of an example to disprove that.
A couple of thoughts :
Fools cannot be helped .
Anytime something is made idiot proof , a better idiot comes along .
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Whilst on the topic of PPE, I bought these the other day and they crap all over the stihl ear muffs I have
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/John-Deere-Earmuff-Class-5-Hearing-protection-protector-/290626818980
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There are too many laws and restrictions anyway .
Any legal restrictions will just give the government an excuse to create another department to spend our money for us.
I fervently believe Ringo Starr's first and only law ; "Anything a government touches turns to s##t" and I cannot think of an example to disprove that.
A couple of thoughts :
Fools cannot be helped .
Anytime something is made idiot proof , a better idiot comes along .
And you can't always engineer your way out of stupidity. The managers at my job have tried.
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Like political correctness, the safety gods have gone to the ridiculous,
Gee I wonder why Australia can't compete with Asian production costs?
I'm sure that 20 page risk assessment will come in very handy when the chain slices through your safety glove and then steel cap boot after you drop the saw.
Imagine the risk assessment for winching or simply driving across a river!
Once upon a time we just got on with the job
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Like political correctness, the safety gods have gone to the ridiculous,
Gee I wonder why Australia can't compete with Asian production costs?
I'm sure that 20 page risk assessment will come in very handy when the chain slices through your safety glove and then steel cap boot after you drop the saw.
Imagine the risk assessment for winching or simply driving across a river!
Once upon a time we just got on with the job
Well said, personal safety should be the responsibility of that person. If someone wwants to use a chainsaw/power tool in a T shirt & thongs, then that is their choice...as stupid as it is.
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I don't think this is limited to chainsaws. Any angle grinder, circular saw etc can inflict the same damage. I wonder how the power tool companies and Bunnings can get away without a duty of care...
This is a no brainer.
Now fellas there is the book in the box called an instruction book. I know most of us just throw it away with the box but the first pages contain the safety information and warnings.
Next time you get a power tool or anything for that matter take the time to read this little book and find out all the things that it has to offer.
This is how the tool manufacturers get away with their Duty of Care. "we wrote it in the instructions of use your honor. It is not our fault they did not read the instructions BEFORE they used/built it"
Regards
Crisp Image
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Like political correctness, the safety gods have gone to the ridiculous,
Gee I wonder why Australia can't compete with Asian production costs?
I'm sure that 20 page risk assessment will come in very handy when the chain slices through your safety glove and then steel cap boot after you drop the saw.
Imagine the risk assessment for winching or simply driving across a river!
Once upon a time we just got on with the job
Fact is, there are less people injured or killed in the workplace today.
Look at it this way, would you rather send your kids to a workplace that conduct "20 page" risk assessment, and does their best to manage the safety of your precious offspring? Or would you prefer to send them to a workplace that just wanted the job done quickly, taking unnecessary risks is a part of the job.
All whilst you are getting paid an hourly rate. Think about it.
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20 page risk asessment each time you fire up the chainsaw and get paid for the hurry up and wait , don't think so ? Far Far to much OHS now allready that a 1hr job now takes 2+ hrs because of 'paperwork' , we as a country are turning into the most UNPRODUCTIVE nation because of OHS !!!
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20 page risk assessment each time you fire up the chainsaw and get paid for the hurry up and wait , don't think so ? Far Far to much OHS now allready that a 1hr job now takes 2+ hrs because of 'paperwork' , we as a country are turning into the most UNPRODUCTIVE nation because of OHS !!!
You're right, we should be like China and kill people daily.
Our organisation has mines in China, you would be amazed how keen they are to learn our western methodology to manage safety and reduce the 'killing' they do in their workplaces... Kinda strange eh?
PS: a 20 page risk assessment is ridiculous, and missing the point entirely, 5 pages max! :D
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(http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0903/this-will-not-end-well-gun-rifle-hurt-asshole-demotivational-poster-1236821997.jpg)
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I sat for months turning simple safe work method statements into 20 page novels because the ofsc got on this bandwagon. Also scared away good subbies because of our company requirements in regards to this." Duty of care" is legislated but **** you have to do some paperwork to satisfy these 3 words!
Our company did the same... Now we're going to introduce a 'Sub-contractor prequalifcation' booklet to get rid of the loyal ones who were stupid enough to hang around. LOL!
Back on topic. We all need to remember one important thing.
YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID....
IT'S FOREVER!
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I think a lot of the problems with chainsaw injuries come from misinformed or uninformed people who just wander down to bunnings and grab a saw - no idea how to use it and the only training they get from bunnings(if any) is how to start it and where to put the fuel(although plenty I know F454k that up also).
A classic example was in a movie from not long ago (tomorrow when the war began)- starring several young aussie actors(representing aussies from the BUSH) -one of the lead characters a young lass was filmed using a STIHL chainsaw of all brands and have a guess where she was holding the thing?
Thats right - she had her right hand on the trigger as you do and her left hand was holding the chain break lever while she was cutting.
I have been doing some work for Stihl for a long time and mentioned it to the guys at head office - they nearly had a heart attack as they had endorsed the use of their brand in the movie but obviously no-one had checked to make sure all the boxes were ticked - I bet that some nob has gone out and bought a chainsaw and started cutting holding the chain break at some point. :cup:
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Thanks for everyones imput, this thread has been a goldmine of comment, information and OH&S'ness. :cup:
Currently I will not use a saw as I have no experience with them so I am looking forward to giving it a go.
When I purchase my first saw I will also get the safety gear with it and use it. I also have a mate who teaches safe use so I will hit him up for some instruction time.
:cheers:
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IMHO we have become a risk averse nation, cant do that might get hurt etc. Aussie pride themselves on having a crack at anything (instructions are for women lol).
The more people check out through stupidity the better our world becomes.
Be smart work smart think I seen or heard this somewhere.
Can see it now 1 Billion years ago look I have this thing called a wheel what ya think? No way man, do a risk assessement and ill see if it is to dangerous, the last thing we need around here is that thing rolling down a hill and hurting somebody.
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Bunnings dont give instructions on how to use a chainsaw, But guess what? When you brought your last Car, did the Dealer run you through a 5 day course on safe operation of the car? If you crash said car, Can you sue the Dealer for not showing you the safe operation of the car? Lets get real hear. Natural Selection has gotten us to where we are today, the preeminant species on the planet, and losing a few people to Natural Selection wont hurt the gene pool.........
Ok - in complete seriousness now.......there is no way that it would be feasible, let alone right, for a governement to regulate this type of activity in PRIVATE use!! This is Australia, not Communist China or the USSR!!! We have enough fun Police as it is!!!! Smoking kills more people than chainsaws, smoking causes more admissions to Hospital and costs way more taxpayer dollars than chainsaws, yet Smoking is not only legal, you dont need to do a course on how to do it safely, or have to have a "ticket" to do it, thus lining the pockets of Training insitutions, who then, in an effort to raise more cash, change the course so your "old ticket" is no longer valid, and now you need to get a new one, which is now x3 the price it was last time.........
what we do to ourselves is our problem. We need to be responsible for our own actions. Should i choose to use a saw without chaps and cut my leg: Guess what? MY Problem. I am to blame. Not Stihl, Not "the Government", not Karma, but ME. That being said, in an workplace setting, yes, an employer should provide appropriate gear and training in avoid their workers getting injured. Private use - Thats your own problem.
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.there is no way that it would be feasible, let alone right, for a governement to regulate this type of activity in PRIVATE use!! This is Australia, not Communist China or the USSR!!!
I dont know if thats a real good analogy, i would be less surprised to see the Australian government pass this sort of legislation than a Chinese or Russian one.
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Little story for your thread.
An older RFS Captain was spewing about being asked to attend an instruction course on Chainsaws( he had used saw's since he was a boy) and cosequently refused to attend. ???
A few months later he turned up at the monthly Brigade meeting with a bandage around his shin, when asked what had happened he mumbled an obsentiy or something changed the subject and walked of to talk to someone else, another brigade member informed me quietly he had had a little more than a close call with his chainsaw.
Moral to this story is; you are never to old to learn and just because it hasnt happened yet does not mean you are an expert, only it hasnt happened YET.
PPE if for people who realise they have off days and want the best possible out come when Mr Murphy and that day overlap :'(
In my opinion Chainsaws should only be sold to people with a appropriate certificate and a full PPE kit
Grizzly :cheers:
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Whilst on the topic of PPE, I bought these the other day and they crap all over the stihl ear muffs I have
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/John-Deere-Earmuff-Class-5-Hearing-protection-protector-/290626818980
If you want good ear muffs get some Peltor H10A ones, they are it when it comes to muffs. Spewing I dropped mine off the back of my timber mill somewhere along the feeway >:(
While you are at it get your kids some kids peltors as well. My daughter loves wearing her pink ones when I am mowing the lawn or using power tools. It is good a good habit that you can get your kids into early. I never new what a pair of earmuffs (or safety glasses for that matter) were until I got my own shed and tools. Grew up with bad OHS habits learned from my dad and my hearing is worse for it. It scares me these days when he comes over to use my shed as he seems to have no healthy fear of tablesaws, routers or anything else capable of ripping half his hand off.
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Burnsy, I reckon you are on to something there, kids are very good at copying us. I would never have seen my old man with a piece of PPE. I'm pretty good with the peeper protectors, but do need to lift with the rest.
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Bunnings dont give instructions on how to use a chainsaw, But guess what? When you brought your last Car, did the Dealer run you through a 5 day course on safe operation of the car? If you crash said car, Can you sue the Dealer for not showing you the safe operation of the car? Lets get real hear. Natural Selection has gotten us to where we are today, the preeminant species on the planet, and losing a few people to Natural Selection wont hurt the gene pool.........
Ok - in complete seriousness now.......there is no way that it would be feasible, let alone right, for a governement to regulate this type of activity in PRIVATE use!! This is Australia, not Communist China or the USSR!!! We have enough fun Police as it is!!!! Smoking kills more people than chainsaws, smoking causes more admissions to Hospital and costs way more taxpayer dollars than chainsaws, yet Smoking is not only legal, you dont need to do a course on how to do it safely, or have to have a "ticket" to do it, thus lining the pockets of Training insitutions, who then, in an effort to raise more cash, change the course so your "old ticket" is no longer valid, and now you need to get a new one, which is now x3 the price it was last time.........
what we do to ourselves is our problem. We need to be responsible for our own actions. Should i choose to use a saw without chaps and cut my leg: Guess what? MY Problem. I am to blame. Not Stihl, Not "the Government", not Karma, but ME. That being said, in an workplace setting, yes, an employer should provide appropriate gear and training in avoid their workers getting injured. Private use - Thats your own problem.
Surely your kidding!!!!!!!!!!!!
You can't be serious........
It sounds like you're suggesting humans become accountable for their own actions and or exercise common sense......
Oh hang on I'll retract my statements, I didn't realise it was supposed to be funny!!!! :-[
On a serious note now - I reckon you're spot on. :laugh:
Brian
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PPE extends to equipment such as tractor roll over bars
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/man-dies-as-tractor-rolls-over/story-e6frf7jx-1226187008208
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just on the subject of PPE why do most people automatically decide to wear a helmet when riding a motorbike but when it comes to quad bikes on farms it appears to be accepted practice to just wear a helmet if you please?
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I think common sense should be legislated, then we do away with all the BS legslation ::)
bubba :cheers:
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I think common sense should be legislated, then we do away with all the BS legslation ::)
bubba :cheers:
if that was the case we would need a prison next to every boatramp,
mmmm boatramps where stupidity is fashionable and common sense is far to uncommon.
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Different scenario but with serious consequences is hardware stores selling electrical fittings to the DIY brigade and i have even seen bunnings staff showing mr joe public how to wire them up. As a sparky myself, i have seen first hand some potentially lethal attempts at home DIY electrics. >:(
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If this thread continues down this path, I'm going to have to call in the unions...........
You guys are trying to do Darwin out of a job!!!!
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Hi,
OK, it's not a chainsaw, but an outboard motor.
Now that is ice floating on the water.
Any body see any PPE?
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-gSmZeYldW6I/TiOFeBic53I/AAAAAAAAAx8/fQHs1A3twYM/s800/DSC00565.JPG)
I feel sorry for Police divers called out in water temperatures like this to find the body that did not have the proper protection and eventually sank.
cheers
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how about some tips for us noob chainsaw drivers, i bought one six months ago, wear lon pants, shirt, steelies, glasses and faceshield. i only use it for firewood and im pretty careful about settng up cuts before i start cutting.
what else will bite me on the bum?
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how about some tips for us noob chainsaw drivers, i bought one six months ago, wear lon pants, shirt, steelies, glasses and faceshield. i only use it for firewood and im pretty careful about settng up cuts before i start cutting.
what else will bite me on the bum?
Umm the chainsaw will do just that!
First get some chainsaw chaps cause long pants or not a chainsaw will cut right through and then get some training.
you asked my opinion.
Regards
Crisp Image
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Guys, I work in the Underground Mining Industry and have over 30 years in combined time in open cut and underground mines. In my time, (I am the wearer of a few scars and injuries) I have seen safety increase and the results of safety change make mining a much safer working place. But there are those who will use SAFTEY as an excuse not to do any work. JSA, s and risk assessments are a necessary evil in all industries but when people spend hours either doing a JSA or risk assessment and play on the fact that they won’t get themself into trouble by do so, it becomes a bit of a joke.
I have read this section with an open mind and I can see arguments on both sides, but there are those, myself included, when it comes to wearing protective clothing while using a chainsaw, do rely on experience and a prayer. Accidents will happen and no form of protection can prevent this, only reduce the impact.
personal protective equipment (PPE)
Definition
Safety equipment issued to help employees in protecting themselves from the hazards of their work environments. PPE includes fire retardant or chemical-proof clothing, gloves, hard hats, respirators, safety spectacles, etc. Food hygiene equipment (aprons, caps, plastic gloves, etc.) are not included in this category.
Ads by Google
QLD Site Safety Plan
The use of personal protective equipment is to reduce employee exposure to hazards when engineering and administrative controls are not feasible or effective to reduce these risks to acceptable levels.
cheers duggie
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i always use all correct PPE when using chainsaw, no matter how small the job or hot the temp. i like my body parts attached and functional. PPE will not save all areas of the body, thats where common sense, safe work practises, and good luck come in. legislation for the compulsory use of PPE at ALL time would be ideal, but you would have more success banning idiots....cheers wayne
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how about some tips for us noob chainsaw drivers
If you are not cutting always have the chain brake on
Never ever use the 12-3 area on the bar to cut unless you're doing a plunge cut
Always be aware of what is around you and keep your work area clear in case you need to move in a hurry
Remember CUT, cut compression before tension
This is a pretty good read http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/naturalresources/DD2487.html
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how about some tips for us noob chainsaw drivers, i bought one six months ago, wear lon pants, shirt, steelies, glasses and faceshield. i only use it for firewood and im pretty careful about settng up cuts before i start cutting.
what else will bite me on the bum?
read up on kickback so you know why to avoid cutting with the tip of the saw,lots of good vids on youtube, always have a sharp chain ,use hearing protection, use chaps, and have a hard hat with shield fitted for use when limbing.
heres a link to a vid that shows just how fast kickback can occur.
http://www.treeworld.info/attachments/f7/2657d1193521468-kickback-video-kick-back-video-chainsaw-kickbacktest.wmv
heres a 20 min vid about chainsaw safety.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UamFWzb7ufE
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Bunnings dont give instructions on how to use a chainsaw, But guess what? When you brought your last Car, did the Dealer run you through a 5 day course on safe operation of the car?
No the dealer doesnt do that, but you need a car licence to drive the car, this licence "apparently" proves that you are a safe driver and can use a car responsibly whilst not endangering yourself and others....
Perhaps needing your chainsaw ticket before purchasing a saw would at least ensure that the person buying had a basic level of competency and understanding of safety whilst using this device...... Plenty of injuries from people just sharpening the things!!
"common sense" we all get taught common sense, we dont gain it genetically..... genetically we have a different capacity to understand and learn different things......
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The chainsaw certificate should be something pretty minimal that can be done when you pick the saw up - this would at least ensure someone completely unsuited to using a chainsaw cannot walk out of a shop without at least being directed to a proper safety course.
But back to PPE - common sense must prevail - I never cut without my stihl hard hat with muffs and shield - good boots and a good set of riggers gloves - chaps I am wanting to get but have not overcome the shock of the price but know I should wear them but I don't cut that often and am extremely careful when I do.
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chaps I am wanting to get but have not overcome the shock of the price but know I should wear them but I don't cut that often and am extremely careful when I do.
i got labonville chaps delivered from treestuff USA for less than $100.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52N9YPfFkcw
http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?item=1161
(http://www.treestuff.com/store/images/products/wrapchaps.jpg)
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Seems like chainsaw safety has come a long way.
I bought a chainsaw about 10 years ago and was offered no advice as to safety and no safety gear.
Looks like I've just been pretty lucky, I taught myself to use the thing and have never used anything other than caution and a pair of glasses.
How good a job do the leather chaps do in stopping a chain saw cut ?
I would certainly have benefitted from some sort of training or knowledge about chainsaw safety.
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How good a job do the leather chaps do in stopping a chain saw cut ?
Like a hot knife through butter
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Like a hot knife through butter
Hi,
haven't seen leather chainsaw chaps, they would not be effective at all.
The ones I saw on our course were kevlar outer with a thick padding of nylon thread which pulls out if caught by a chain tooth and stops the chain very quickly.
There are some good demo videos on Youtube of how it works.
I believe the new ones have a kevlar filling now and are even faster at choking the saw blade.
cheers
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Nice one koshari - have ordered a set - Stihl set are 300+ here.
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Now I know I should wear PPE......but to cut a small log for the campfire whilst using the smallest size Huskie.......and being mindful of where I stand and how I cut....I'm sorry, but I'm a bloody idiot for not using ANY PPE...
But I'll keep doing it....knowing full well the ramifications if something were to go wrong, but also being fairly confident that it won't !!!!!!!!
99.9% of my cutting is a log lying on the ground......no plunge cutting....no cutting into the dirt underneath.....no compression cutting....no standing where a kickback could hit the body etc etc !!
But if you are really concerned about my safety, I suppose someone could donate some PPE !! ;D ;D
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Now I know I should wear PPE......but to cut a small log for the campfire whilst using the smallest size Huskie
Both of the times where I have had a 'moment' have been on small stuff. The bigger stuff you usually have a mental plan of how and where you're going to cut. But I take your point. Maybe you should get out the bow saw and make it safer for everyone and get fit too :)
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Maybe you should get out the bow saw and make it safer for everyone and get fit too :)
Fark i better start now than ive got a few excess kilo's to work off ;D
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Nice one koshari - have ordered a set - Stihl set are 300+ here.
cheers wally,
i should have mentioned if you put "arborist" in the coupon field of the order you can save another 5% as iam a member of the arborist site but i dont think they check, sorry thats a bit late for you to benefit.
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. Maybe you should get out the bow saw and make it safer for everyone and get fit too :)
No way.........I'd rather cut me leg off than have a heart attack !! ;D ;D
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Fact is, there are less people injured or killed in the workplace today.
Look at it this way, would you rather send your kids to a workplace that conduct "20 page" risk assessment, and does their best to manage the safety of your precious offspring? Or would you prefer to send them to a workplace that just wanted the job done quickly, taking unnecessary risks is a part of the job.
All whilst you are getting paid an hourly rate. Think about it.
Those in the "We're looking after you industry" will defend the over the top regs to the end of time and have piss week Parliaments allowing them to destroy the workpace.
I have been an employee, employer, self employed and site manager responsible for teams of people and I have never asked them to do anything I wouldn't do myself, in fact if it ever there ever is a bit of risk involved I do carry out said task myself.
But everyone must realise the rising cost in any workplace and there comes a massive cost to employment and Australian production.
No, don't send people out to chop trees without a pair of glasses (I won't even grind without full face shield after too many visits to the doc) BUT, if they chose to, don't try and sue the employer and the saw manufacturer .................. just deal with the decision they made.
It is the legal poopsticks and piss week legislation that allowed the American "it's someone elses fault" system to start here.
If my kids chose to ignore the dangers after sound advice then bad luck. If my kids get told by an employer to do something they are not comfortable with and don't tell them where to go ................. they must be someone else!
How many times do you tell your kids 'don't ride down the hill or jump off that roof, are they gonna sue you for no barricade on your roof or buying them the bike?
It's called Life .............. deal with it
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Those in the "We're looking after you industry" will defend the over the top regs to the end of time and have piss week Parliaments allowing them to destroy the workpace.
I have been an employee, employer, self employed and site manager responsible for teams of people and I have never asked them to do anything I wouldn't do myself, in fact if it ever there ever is a bit of risk involved I do carry out said task myself.
But everyone must realise the rising cost in any workplace and there comes a massive cost to employment and Australian production.
No, don't send people out to chop trees without a pair of glasses (I won't even grind without full face shield after too many visits to the doc) BUT, if they chose to, don't try and sue the employer and the saw manufacturer .................. just deal with the decision they made.
It is the legal poopsticks and piss week legislation that allowed the American "it's someone elses fault" system to start here.
If my kids chose to ignore the dangers after sound advice then bad luck. If my kids get told by an employer to do something they are not comfortable with and don't tell them where to go ................. they must be someone else!
How many times do you tell your kids 'don't ride down the hill or jump off that roof, are they gonna sue you for no barricade on your roof or buying them the bike?
It's called Life .............. deal with it
Well said, totally agree.
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cheers wally,
i should have mentioned if you put "arborist" in the coupon field of the order you can save another 5% as iam a member of the arborist site but i dont think they check, sorry thats a bit late for you to benefit.
Ahh that's where I have seen your user name before. Also a member, sold my mill now though so havn't been there for a long while. Good forum, bought my chainsaw from the US on some advice from an aborist member from over east.
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Ahh that's where I have seen your user name before. Also a member, sold my mill now though so havn't been there for a long while. Good forum, bought my chainsaw from the US on some advice from an aborist member from over east.
cheers burnsy, i actually initially joined this forum from your jayco build thread, have done a bit of work to our dove but nothing as comprehensive as yours.
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I have a bow saw for firewood.
If I get a chain saw I will do training and buy protective gear.
A long time since my Air Cadet weapons training with the Lee Enfield .303, but the principles have remained in-grained. I recon the same principles apply here.
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do you guys mean this this :cup:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e27_1320700077 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e27_1320700077)
:angel:
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The point being that you can legislate all you like, its another thing to be able to enforce the legislation , of the 8 people killed on Qlds roads this past weekend 7 were NOT wearing seatbelts , ,, legislate all you like , bring in more stupid OH+S rules such as the SES requirement that before you can climb a ladder you must complete a 3day ,yes 3day course even though you may be using a ladder all day every day in your employment ,and have to renew your 'ladder certificate ' for the SES every 12mths ,,, STUPIDITTY will out be it a chainsaw user /car driver or any other activity ,,
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The point being that you can legislate all you like, its another thing to be able to enforce the legislation
bingo.
I reckon we all give chainsaw racing a go
http://www.camdenshow.com.au/wp-content/upload/chainsaw-2011.pdf
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so what sort of PPE gear will one need for this saw?
helmet,backbrace?
:cup:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9x8rBKC4BE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9x8rBKC4BE)
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I didn't see helmet, earmuffs, chaps or glasses ???
But, I don't think they were going to get any kickback.....but if the chain came off at 200mph....well that might be a bit different !!
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Well, after 7 pages I figured I should fess up, Guilty
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7 pages, sorry im too ;azy to read them all :-[
Ive been using chainsaws for 20 yrs without incident, I use em in thongs, I use em half cut, I normally have my sunnies on when using them but Im very particular about those around me. I tell those around dont touch the timber im cutting and dont stand in front of my saw. I might not be OHS standard but I believe in the Darwin solution, Darwin takes out fools :laugh: Im from the tradies era that said put your ladder up correctly or you will fall, respect your knives and saws or you will get cut.
Unfortunately theres plenty of Darwinites with PPE
No it shouldnt be legislated, you cant protect those without common sense.
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Fark i better start now than ive got a few excess kilo's to work off ;D
bd, i saw you yesterday, "a few kilos ???" keep counting mate :cheers:
slender outback jack
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bd, i saw you yesterday, "a few kilos ???" keep counting mate :cheers:
slender outback jack
:-* :-* :-*
:cheers:
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???bought a new hammer today,came with (safety warning use safety goggles=glasses)What about ear, finger ,wrist forearm,bicept,strain,(councelling for nail)Oh gimmy a break let common sence prevail cheers bob whale..
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Unfortunately theres plenty of Darwinites with PPE
Extremely good point!!!!
Some people get bullet proof and very complacent when they get their suit of armour on.
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many people are bullet proof and complacent without PPE it as well,
i fail to see the point.
if you have PPE and dont wear it your a fool,
and as for using a chainsaw wearing thongs and while being p$$ed! i just hope that poster was taking the pi$$.
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Hi,
a glimpse back to the working practices of the 1960s in the Florentine Valley behind Maydena (Tas)
cheers
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Hi,
a glimpse back to the working practices of the 1960s in the Florentine Valley behind Maydena (Tas)
cheers
I'm sure the hat would provide sufficient protection from a tree that size!!lol
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I'm sure the hat would provide sufficient protection from a tree that size!!lol
I remember back to about 1977, during my first season on the FCV Summer Crew.
We were out the back of Mt Sterling just of the Circuit Road. The job for the day was seed havesting adjacent to an Alpine Ash logging coupe.
About 5 of us "raw recruits" settled down at lunch time with the leading hand adjacent to an Old Alpine Ash. As it was hot (middle of February) some took their hard hats of. Old Joe (the Leading Hand) commented "thats not a really good idea - remember the widow maker". Most of us - except 1, put their hats back on - begrudgingly, as is was pretty sweaty under them.
Right on cue, 5 minutes later -sure enough, woosh - plunk.
A small branch came whistling downwards and embedded itself to a depth of 5 inches into the ground not 20 feet from where we sat. It may have been only 2 or three inches diameter, but it would have made mince meat of any skull. The remaining person without a Hard hat on made a rush for his!!
Ive never gone into Alpine Ash country without a hard hat since, at work or play.
Another incident:
In 1993 we were supervising Pine logging at Delatite Arm. We left the logging crew mid afternoon.
Just entering Mansfield we passed the ambulance going the other way. The usuall "where's he off to in a rush". We soon found out.
One of the loggingcrew team was sharpening his saw on a stump out in the open. He was found deceased after a Pine snapped of at the base (it had been hit by a harvester some time previously and damaged) and fell directly on top of him. He would have been about 20 metres from the tree, the last 5 metres of the trunk got him).
He would not have known what hit him, and no hard hat would have saved him.
its the old storey - what you can see usually wont hurt you - its what you dont that is the killer.
if you work or play in this type of environment i believe in maximizing your return home potential.
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Well, after 7 pages I figured I should fess up, Guilty
Lucas Mill? Good bit of gear, my cousin had one for years and cut squillions of super feet.
It looks as if the career change is working out pretty good.
:cheers:
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Lucas Mill? Good bit of gear, my cousin had one for years and cut squillions of super feet.
It looks as if the career change is working out pretty good.
:cheers:
Yep it was great bit of gear but to much capital sitting around and not enough time to dedicate to it so it got sold last year. I am still getting calls for milling though, plenty of people wanting it done and in Perth and not many doing it. Heaps cheaper than having trunks removed as well. From memory, the tuart in the pictures above was cut for around $650 and the client had been quoted $1500 to have it removed by tree loppers. Managed to save nearly a grand and get enough timber for all his kitchen benches and a nice big dining table. :cup:
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if you have PPE and dont wear it your a fool,
and as for using a chainsaw wearing thongs and while being p$$ed! i just hope that poster was taking the pi$$.
Lol I drink beer and bourban and use all sorts of power tools, Sorry but im 46 yrs old and have been using power tools since I was 12. On the piss or at 7 am I'll still back my commonsense and tool safety against somebody with all the ppe and no idea. A few here have seen me swing a chainsaw and I go alright in me thongs.
Dont get me wrong im not a fool, ill wear ppe when I deam it necessary but I hate to tell ya if you are wearing steel towed boots and im wearing thongs if the chainsaw hits our feet at full noise then we are both limping for a long time.
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why does the old poster of the electrician come to mind. Pliers in hand standing at the pearly gates, "but I never had an accident in my life... except that last one" yep a smoker can go their entire life and never get cancer, the mentality of 'she'll be right' never ceases to amaze me, after all when it does happen it might be way too late.
I wonder if all the people here saying all this legislation is crap, still believe asbestos is safe and should never have been legislated out of existence?
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Champion....the way it should be......
PPE?
I use DPT (double plugger thongs) MOS (me old sunnies) and KEFA ( Keep every F$%^er away) ;D
;D
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Lol I drink beer and bourban and use all sorts of power tools, Sorry but im 46 yrs old and have been using power tools since I was 12. On the piss or at 7 am I'll still back my commonsense and tool safety against somebody with all the ppe and no idea. A few here have seen me swing a chainsaw and I go alright in me thongs.
Dont get me wrong im not a fool, ill wear ppe when I deam it necessary but I hate to tell ya if you are wearing steel towed boots and im wearing thongs if the chainsaw hits our feet at full noise then we are both limping for a long time.
i personally dont agree with legalising PPE for to individual outside of the workplace, i believe its up to the individual to be educated well enough to make the decision themselves,
if you choose to use power tools while drunk is your buisness but trying to justify using thongs rather than boots is pure laziness, of so your example of a saw at full revs hitting the ankles may hold true to a curtain degree, glancing a toe the differences will be night and day, not to mention limbing and a brach drops down and lands on a toe,
given it takes me all of about 10 seconds to slip on my elastic sided boots its plain bone laziness at best to wear thongs.
not to mention your setting a fine example to kids who dont have the benifit of your 30 odd years of experiance.
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Funny you say about the setting of examples for kids.
I have 2 girls 13 and 15, the youngest one didnt want a go of the chainsaw but the 15 year old did. I made her put on a hat full face safety sheild, shoes, gloves and ear plugs. Im also teaching them to use lots of power tools including welding and always make them wear the appropriate safety gear, even mowing the lawn. I always get, why do we have to wear this stuff and you dont. My answer is I care more about your eyes than mine.
I seen a guy splitting wood, he had his boots on, all the safety gear etc and he commented about me collecting wood in thongs, its ok mate im keeping an eye out for snakes ;D not long after I see him swinging the axe over his head with the block of wood still on the axe, go figure.
Ps theres a big difference between being on the piss and being pissed.
Seems this forums become very touchy whilst ive been away lol.
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Ps theres a big difference between being on the piss and being pissed.
Seems this forums become very touchy whilst ive been away lol.
Spot on pauly, too many drama queens around
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Spot on pauly, too many drama queens around
I'll :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: to that
bubba :cheers:
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Why do we need legislation against common sense?
If I wish to use a chainsaw without PPE, I expect the RIGHT to do so without law intervening. I don't see why a 3rd party needs to interfere.
Same as if a bloke wants to marry another guy, so be it. More power to him. Why do we need a law to make/prevent it, or people to involve themselves.
Too many namby pamby types have lost the use of common sense, trying to cotton wool wrap everything or interfere with the freedom of others.
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Why do we need seat belts then?
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Why do we need legislation against common sense?
If I wish to use a chainsaw without PPE, I expect the RIGHT to do so without law intervening.
I reckon you are entitled to that right, .........
.........provided I have the right not to have to contribute my tax dollars towards your rehabilitation if you arrive at the emergency department missing a leg, and you agree not to sue me as your employer if you had an accident at work and weren't wearing PPE I'd provided and trained you to Use.
Until recently, I managed a hardwood sawmill. Chainsaws are bloody dangerous, even in experienced hands.
Until people accept responsibility for their own actions/stupidity/lack of common sense, I'm happy
to see PPE legislated. Particularly, when the rest of society bears the burden and cost of their stupidity.
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Why do we need seat belts then?
And why not let drivers be hoons in our streets ???
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Why do we need seat belts then?
they apparently come in pretty handy for stopping people flying through windows.
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Don't you think there are enough rules?....
There should be free training programs offered, some rescue outfits may already do just that.. Maybe they could be listed if they exist.
I did do a chainsaw training course in the NZ'd Army Engineers many years ago and still use my knowledge in the correct use and maintenance or saws today,,, Notice I did not mention safety... The safety that was taught on this course wasn't PPE but how to use a saw correctly..... Needless to say I use a Chainsaw without PPE all the time, where people can get awfully unstuck is not knowing HOW to use a saw, in those cases you should use PPE if you want to survive, I choose not to as it is bulky/expensive and often not on hand at the time, also where I often cut PPE can get in the way in scrub and as long as you know how to control saw and you always maintain a safe saw you will be safe.....
If we are careful we will turn into robots not unlike the support staff I have to deal with in the subcontinent where to do anything you need doco rather than common sense....
How about just legislate "Common Bloody Sense"
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...as long as you know how to control saw and you always maintain a safe saw you will be safe.....
Ignorance is bliss
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I suppose reading this thread that there is every likelihood my first aid business will flourish:) as will the need to supply items to control blood flow;)
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:cup: hahaha GLC, that is gold!
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No to legislating. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion BUT do any of the good folk who wear full PPE everytime they start a chansaw up wear a fire proof racing suit, helmet and 5 point harness everytime they drive their car? It would be much safer if you did and would also reduce the extent of injuries if involved in an accident. Accidents will always happen.
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This thread really needs some 6 b&s....
Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710a using Tapatalk
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Why do we need legislation against common sense?
If I wish to use a chainsaw without PPE, I expect the RIGHT to do so without law intervening. I don't see why a 3rd party needs to interfere.
Don't get me wrong I do agree with you, but the above could be argued this way.
You injure yourself because your not wearing correct PPE. You call up the taxpayer 000, to request a taxpayer funded ambulance take you to the closest taxpayer funded emergency ward, so taxpayer funded doctors can tend to you. Why should the poor PPE abiding taxpayer have to shell out for you stupidity?
Sounds over the top, but it could be legitimately argued.
A few years ago at the height of the diy tv show craze I was chatting with a emergency department nurse. He said if he had his way, 9" angle grinders, 9" circular saws and extension/step ladders would be banned from weekend warriors. Said they were some of the most common things to fill the emergency ward on a Sunday arvo.
Ive been using chainsaws for 20 yrs without incident, I use em in thongs, I use em half cut,
That's nothing... I once use a chainsaw without filling in a SWMS! Talk about a real daredevil.
;D
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FOR F#@K SAKE .......enough!
how do I get this and Pat Poopahans TV Show off my posted replies list
Don't reply to a post.
Your post has been deleted so you will not see this post. ;D
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I injure myself so I call 000 to request an ambulance, paid for by my seperate ambulance cover policy.
To take me to a private hospital, as part of the health fund I contribute too anually.
Why should the poor law abiding tax payer have more losses of liberty forced upon him?
I am a tax payer, and a quite high contributor at that. This has nothing to do with cost saving.
Once again, there is no need to legislate against common sense. The most dangerous thing in the world is a human.
We are the cause of accidents.
Don't get me wrong I do agree with you, but the above could be argued this way.
You injure yourself because your not wearing correct PPE. You call up the taxpayer 000, to request a taxpayer funded ambulance take you to the closest taxpayer funded emergency ward, so taxpayer funded doctors can tend to you. Why should the poor PPE abiding taxpayer have to shell out for you stupidity?
Sounds over the top, but it could be legitimately argued.
A few years ago at the height of the diy tv show craze I was chatting with a emergency department nurse. He said if he had his way, 9" angle grinders, 9" circular saws and extension/step ladders would be banned from weekend warriors. Said they were some of the most common things to fill the emergency ward on a Sunday arvo.
That's nothing... I once use a chainsaw without filling in a SWMS! Talk about a real daredevil.
;D
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To take me to a private hospital, as part of the health fund I contribute too anually.
In an emergency ambos will take you to the closest available ER, most likely won't be private.
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I injure myself so I call 000......
Just make sure you tourniquet your leg with some 6B&S cable, while you are waiting. Anything else wouldn't be thick enough to properly stop the blood flow.
;D
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I injure myself so I call 000 to request an ambulance, paid for by my seperate ambulance cover policy.
To take me to a private hospital, as part of the health fund I contribute too anually.
Why should the poor law abiding tax payer have more losses of liberty forced upon him?
I am a tax payer, and a quite high contributor at that. This has nothing to do with cost saving.
Once again, there is no need to legislate against common sense. The most dangerous thing in the world is a human.
We are the cause of accidents.
Okay, I'll play the devils advocate.
So what your saying is it should be compulsory for all chainsaw operators to have private health cover and high tax paying job?
What about the dole bludger who borrows his neighbours chainsaw?
It's like the common argument about smokers clogging up the health system and wasting nonsmoking taxpayers money. Smokers argue that they pay hefty cigarette taxs to contribute towards the health system and that it's their right to choose to smoke.
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To those who are talking about 'common sense' I would pose 2 philosophical questions -
What is 'common sense'? And why do you believe it to be 'common' in the first place?
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Agreed Symon, I firmly believe a lot of people today have no common sense or initiative.
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Agreed Symon, I firmly believe a lot of people today have no common sense or initiative.
Absolutely, and the won't get it through laws and regulation.
Cheers
Parry
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the trouble with common sense, it is normally found when looking though hind sight.
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The way I see it 'common sense' is a myth, a fallacy, a fantasy dreamt up by those who want to justify something without reason or evidence.
It is highly dependent on experience - and the fact that everyone's experience is different is the reason why you cannot use 'common sense' as a justification for anything. What is 'common sense' to you is different to my version of 'common sense'. Hence nothing is 'common', so the fantasy of this magical common body of knowledge that everyone 'just knows' is totally false.
Once you understand that fact, you get to understand why 'due diligence' in WH&S legislation is worded the way it is.
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The way I see it 'common sense' is a myth, a fallacy, a fantasy dreamt up by those who want to justify something without reason or evidence.
It is highly dependent on experience - and the fact that everyone's experience is different is the reason why you cannot use 'common sense' as a justification for anything. What is 'common sense' to you is different to my version of 'common sense'. Hence nothing is 'common', so the fantasy of this magical common body of knowledge that everyone 'just knows' is totally false.
X2
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Really? I would think, 'hey that mower/saw/brushcutter is loud so I should protect my ears' would be a pretty simple concept. However I guess considering the number of people who have their headphones too loud, probably not.
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I believe the pollies need to introduce a natural selection bill that waivers compensation for any act by a person(s) whos actions could be nominated for a darwinian award.
As a species, natural selection should be encouraged !!!!
They could set up a summit, a conference, a review panel ............
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Really? I would think
That's the key issue here D4D
YOU THINK in relation to what you have learn't from your experience, but so many don't think or have the experience which makes it un-common sense.
Common sense is a fallacy created by individuals who arrogantly think that because they have a certain knowledge, that everyone else should automatically posses that same knowledge ::)
bubba :cheers:
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Really? I would think, 'hey that mower/saw/brushcutter is loud so I should protect my ears' would be a pretty simple concept. However I guess considering the number of people who have their headphones too loud, probably not.
What if you had never been around someone who would wear hearing protection? 'just put up with it' would be the norm then and would be 'common sense' wouldn't it?
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OK so they're unconsciously incompetent rather than consciously incompetent, therefore some awareness at purchase rather than legislation may work. After all there is probably more margin in the PPE than the saw itself.
There is also probably the 'I am invincible' mentality at play here as well. You only need to look at the large percentage of young drivers’ who are darwining themselves at the moment.
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Ear muffs are great PPE, especially on the shooting range.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6zQ1VkcXQw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6zQ1VkcXQw)
;D
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Those who do the right thing wear PPE, carry out prestart checks and generally check the risk out in their mind before starting will be fine, no problem there.
Those who laugh/ scoff at safety, go on like a di#k head and operate dangerous tools like, become injured or killed.
Evolution has been around alot longer than law, you can't regular safety processes with plant/ tools in the home environment like a workplace. It's impractical and no amount of debating will fix that.
The smart people who take the effort to set up and use their equipment will be around longer for there families than those who operate equipment like reckless cowboys and sooner or later will pay the price.
That's evolution, we are responsible for our own actions regardless of the consequences, end of story ( life goes on).
Campfire
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this thread
(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd234/cremo1/cartoonstock.png)
with a touch of
(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd234/cremo1/bike.jpg)
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;D
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;D
I'm sorry, but he really should be wearing a full faced helmet ;D
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Or maybe....
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This thread is a bit like politics or religion. I have my views ( about PPE, or the lack of) and you have yours (strong belief in the use of PPE). I believe in what my views are as do you with yours. Therefore you can try to hammer home if you want to, but it is worth all the trouble?
cheers duggie
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some awareness at purchase rather than legislation may work
All operators manuals have a safety section that should be read and understood before operation, ignore the warnings and you may suffer the consequences.
Smart operators will take preventative measures and the rest will eventually pay the price, like someone already said "it's natural selection"
PPE is impossible to enforce in the private sector and would be about as effective as the measures taken to stop speeding and hoon drivers, but it would be a great revenue raiser for the Govt just like the speed cameras (hope the ranga isn't reading this thread)
bubba :cheers:
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Seems to me to be a bit like this.
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c32/hairymick/walmart.jpg)
We are the most legislated and regulated country on earth.
This is just more bullShit to give people jobs other than actually producng something.
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Saw "Stickman" (Canadian street performer) juggling a chainsaw at the Port Fairy Folk Festival at the weekend.
He didn't have any PPE ... likewise when he laid on a bed of nails and was walked across. :cup:
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nothing like an old thread being dug up......
i suppose i shouldn't mention that my chainsaw is that old that it doesn't have a chain brake......
i do wear suitable footwear and ear protection (nearly need double hearing protection as the exhaust/muffler is missing), if my safety glasses are handy than i put them on otherwise i rely on my normal glasses....i also make sure nobody else is too close
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Hey it is not just the provate sector that has issues 3 weeks ago on the TV was one of those ARB videos in the high county VIC and you guessed it a couple of shot of chainsawing fallen trees with No gloves, no hearing protection and just a pair of probably zero impact everyday sunnies on.
I really then enjoyed the fact that they then went to great pains to ensure that a winch dampening blanket is used for all winching
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Hey it is not just the provate sector that has issues 3 weeks ago on the TV was one of those ARB videos in the high county VIC and you guessed it a couple of shot of chainsawing fallen trees with No gloves, no hearing protection and just a pair of probably zero impact everyday sunnies on.
I really then enjoyed the fact that they then went to great pains to ensure that a winch dampening blanket is used for all winching
Went into the inlaws the other day and cut up some small fallen branchs off a tree......went thru a tank of juice, so a fair few branchs................and .........I wasn't wearing earmuffs ( I don't usually, as the Huskie is fairly quiet )........no gloves.....( they aren't going to save much anyway ).....no eye protection....( don't ever recall having log chips fling back that far )...........and............I was wearing thongs ( now, I usually DO wear some sort of shoes, but on this day it didn't happen )...
And...........I'm still alive !!!!
But, I stand with the saw offset.......I don't undercut if at all possible......I don't plunge cut......or near the ground if possible.......
I know........I'm a bloody idiot.........but if I cut my leg off, I'll be the 1st to post up and admit it !! ;D ;D
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Like a lot of things, I grew up on a farm and using things like chainsaws and brush cutters was part of the deal. You learnt to respect them and use them accordingly.
Some people should never be allowed to be in the presence of anything that has any cutting edge or moving part
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I did a chainsaw course last year and have been using saws for 25years. But when they show some of the stuff up people make its and eye opener. People think chainsaws cut no they rip the average nick with a saw is 4" and 100 stitches long and the time it takes a saw to flick up from flat to your head is 1/15 of a second. So I will be getting some chaps.
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Should the use of PPE be legislated?
No.
Unlikely to achieve anything. I'd prefer to see tool safety well covered in the education system. No amount of legislation can replace common sense and basic safety awareness. You can have all the PPE you like but an idiot operator is still that.
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I did a chainsaw course last year and have been using saws for 25years. But when they show some of the stuff up people make its and eye opener. People think chainsaws cut no they rip the average nick with a saw is 4" and 100 stitches long and the time it takes a saw to flick up from flat to your head is 1/15 of a second. So I will be getting some chaps.
If it flicks from flat up to your head.......what are the chaps for ??
Yes they are a dangerous device....but as said, use some commonsense when using them..
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Thanks gronk and alnjan, I was starting to lose all faith.
We usually use the chainsaw to cut the wood, to light the fire, to drink the beer, then start with the BS
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If you cut fast there's less time for an accident..... ;D
V8 Chainsaw 6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvAI7-Qa2Io#)
:cup:
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If it flicks from flat up to your head.......what are the chaps for ??
Yes they are a dangerous device....but as said, use some commonsense when using them..
keep any bodily fluids off his pants ???
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Thanks gronk and alnjan, I was starting to lose all faith.
We usually use the chainsaw to cut the wood, to light the fire, to drink the beer, then start with the BS
After the cyclone, no low pressure storm come through I have a few trees down and needed to use the chainsaw. As you can see from the photo, yes I was chainsawing above my head, even on the ladder, had steel cap boots, glasses, akubra and oilskin coat , to keep the rain off. Have been cutting a number of fallen trees limbs up since and the only injury was after chainsawing and moving a cut limb.
Like I said, treat the chainsaw with respect and look at what you are cutting and plan how and where to cut before you start the saw.
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6123/dscf1141copy2.jpg)
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If it flicks from flat up to your head.......what are the chaps for ??
Yes they are a dangerous device....but as said, use some commonsense when using them..
yes I agree PPE should be the last form of defence not the first. Why chaps 80% of accidents happen below the belt.
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I've got a better concept, instead of legislating PPE, how about before you buy a chainsaw you have to prove that you have undertaken a nationally accredited chainshaw course in the last 12 months.
Better still, make it a licence, so you need to have one before you can buy or operate a chainsaw. You can then pay to have chainsaw licence enforcers patrolling backyards issuing fines to people using chainsaws without a licence.
That would give the 'common sense' brigade some substance to their argument.
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Now that I would like to see, a licence enforcer approaching an angry unlicenced punter with a chainsaw in his hands :police:
Time to go to bed, me thinks, now wheres me sleeping PPE ???
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I've got a better concept, instead of legislating PPE, how about before you buy a chainsaw you have to prove that you have undertaken a nationally accredited chainshaw course in the last 12 months.
Better still, make it a licence, so you need to have one before you can buy or operate a chainsaw. You can then pay to have chainsaw licence enforcers patrolling backyards issuing fines to people using chainsaws without a licence.
That would give the 'common sense' brigade some substance to their argument.
Good idea! We should do that with cars. That'll make sure everyone on the road knows how to drive a car properly and safely and.....Oh.... wait a minute..... :-[