MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: robsjack on January 31, 2011, 09:45:30 AM
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With over 270,000km on the Jackaroo I've been starting to look around at a likely replacement. A lack of $$$ puts the LC, Patrol and most of the other heavy duty 4WD's out of the running so I've been looking at the alternatives. I need something that will tow the trailer but not yet looking to do heavy offroad trips. It will be my daily driver also so I'm hoping to get something that is not too much of a fuel guzler. The Jack has been on gas for 5 years now and is relatively frugal on the wallet.
Anyhow I was thinking about a 2nd hand Kluger, Chalenger or even possibly the Hyundai Santa Fee but came across some positive comments about the new X240 Great Wall wagon. I mean $24K for a brand new 4WD sounds too good to be true! Considering it comes with Air bags, ABS, Climate control, leather interior, 17" Alloys, electric windows and central locking I was keen to have a look first hand.
The test drive car certainly looks the goods. Quality of the paint, wheels, tires and external panels is good. The quality of the interior fittings looked fine to me and there was nothing I could fault. I found the seats to be a little flat(not as much wrap around support as the Jack) but they felt ok. The drive was good also with the care being very comfortable. It's no rocket though. I thought the Jack was a little sluggish (especially on gas) but the 2.4l petrol does seem to be a little on the small side. It's got a Mitsubishi engine, gearbox and diff from the Colorado, chassis from the Hilux and alot of the electrics from Toyota.
Whats got be still thinking is that the $$$ are so cheap.
Makes you wonder how much profit the other companies are making on all the other traditional 4WD's. I mean if the Great Wall had a V6 or a decent diesel engine it would be just the thing and I'd definately buy one. It certainly wouldn't cost another $25K.
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I have seen them and they look nice.
A couple people on this forum have them in fact.
I also have some customers that own them and they have not had any problems.
Rumor is that next year they may be bringing out a diesel model...
Bill and Morag
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Have a look here
http://www.greatwallmotors.com.au/default.asp?action=article&ID=21668
With 45 dealers already on side and a further 30 dealers to be announced by the end of this year the Great Wall utes are backed by a 24/7 roadside assist package and a three year, 100,000 km warranty. The future will see additional models such as a single cab coming on line and there is a choice of two diesel engines, a 2.0 litre turbo diesel and a 2.8 litre turbo diesel waiting in the wings for their debut.
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Junk..
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Junk..
People said that about hyundai and kia and now they make some of the best cars on the market.
They are not in the leuage of landcruiser and patrol, but they are not meant to be and you would be completly stupid if you dared to compare them too them.
They are a great cheap car and with the diesels comong they will be better, 1 of the deisels are out of the captiva which is a proven motor.
Not everyone can spend big dollar on top name cars and would like the choice of new and this is there choice.
Mark.
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I think you will find they,re NOT a 4wd...but a soft roader like the Klugers/ Sante Fe's/ etc !!
But if you don't want to go 4wding, then for 24K...and 5 yr warranty, give em a go !!
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People said that about hyundai and kia and now they make some of the best cars on the market.
Agreed, but it took them well over 20 years to get from junk to good. Resale is still garbage though, I've had 3 brand new Hyundais in the past 7 years and the resale on the 2 that've now gone (Terracan & Santa Fe) was awful. The little Getz is still a rocket-powered roller skate tho!
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As i said in a previous thread, I sold Hyundai's some time ago and the easiest person to sell a Hyundai to was a Hyundai owner (They were past the preconceptions). I will admit the resale is low, but go and buy a rep rocket falcon or commodore and see how the resale is in 2 years. The Great Wall cars are pieced together using older parts from the Japanese car industry. If i was looking for a ute I'd probably look at one
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I'm under no preconceptions that the Great Wall will be comparable with your LC, Patrol, Hilux,etc...
What's got me really thinking though is the fact that the price difference doesn't equate to the difference in materials and quality.
If Great Wall can make a profit from the X240 at $24K then why is a brand new Kluger, challenger, pathfinder, etc.. $50K+? The profit margin must be huge on these vehicles. I just can't see an extra $25K worth of vehicle.
Maybe in time as Great Wall (and others) improve their cars the Toyota and Nissan will rethink the pricing structure on their cars and come back to something more reasonable.
....hmmmm..... maybe not
probably more likely that Great Wall will increase their prices once they get themselves bedded in the Australian market
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Maybe this will help http://myswag.org/forum/index.php?topic=10686.msg159155#msg159155
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i know a mechanic at a great wall dealership/other car brands and the fact that they have them resprayed when they come into the dealership does nothing for me, on the other hand talk to TJM i think lovells are in R&D for a 35mm lift.
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What's got me really thinking though is the fact that the price difference doesn't equate to the difference in materials and quality.
The price difference can probably be accounted for in the difference in labour cost, not material cost.
An average Australian worker working in the car industry would earn around $25/hr. I bet those Chinese workers putting together those Great Wall cars would be lucky to get the equivalent of $25 per week, working 6 days a week and 15 hours a day.
Pay the assembly workers pittenance and use left over and superceded parts from other manufacturers....... and there you have the main ingredients for making a car for 1/2 the price everyone else does.
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The price difference can probably be accounted for in the difference in labour cost, not material cost.
An average Australian worker working in the car industry would earn around $25/hr. I bet those Chinese workers putting together those Great Wall cars would be lucky to get the equivalent of $25 per week, working 6 days a week and 15 hours a day.
Pay the assembly workers pittenance and use left over and superceded parts from other manufacturers....... and there you have the main ingredients for making a car for 1/2 the price everyone else does.
Aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..............
Now you've gone and ruined it all with a logical explanation >:D >:D >:D
My 2 cents plus GST's worth................. Horses for courses. ;D
Brian
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Wake up to yourself, don't try and gloss it over with spin - they are rubbish junk motor vehicles. Their 24k cause their @hit house.
Buy a second hand 95 series Toyota Prado with all the fruit for less than that. Now your in a capable off road vehicle.
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Wake up to yourself, don't try and gloss it over with spin - they are rubbish junk motor vehicles. Their 24k cause their @hit house.Buy a second hand 95 series Toyota Prado with all the fruit for less than that. Now your in a capable off road vehicle.
And you base this observation on personal experiance?
Please tell us why they are crap and maybe save someone some agravation.
robsjack,
Everyone has thier own opinion and the only one who can decide if the Great Wall is for you is you.
Good luck with whatever decision you make and remember when you finally make a decision
:worthles:
Bill and Morag
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If you recognise that it's a soft roader rather than a hard-core 4wd (and the $24K is as much as you want to pay), then personally i'd say go for it. I'd rather have a new car than a 10yo Prado (as suggested elsewhere in this thread) that's done 200K+
Resale will be crapola, but then you've not paid much up front either....
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Each to there own we all would like the best with everyting on it. But at the end of the day we can only afford what we can.
No one makes money selling second hand cars so we will drive them into the ground. Yes toyota and nissan are alot more expensive and make great cars but just like camper trailers everyone likes certain brands and models depending on budgets.
Yes great wall are cheap cars and wiil need extras added to beef them up but so do toyota and nissans when they come off the factory floor.
Good luck with the decision.
Mark
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wiil need extras added to beef them up
the problem will be the availability of the extras for that car. I had the same issue with my Santa Fe (and to a lessor extent the Terracan before it) - no worries any more with the Patrol on that front
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I reckon a second hand Hyundai Terracan would be a better buy, just because the Great Wall's are so new to our market. The Terracan wasn't flashy, but the diesel is honest and they certainly aren't falling apart.
If one was to buy a Great Wall you'd want to plan on owning it forever.
The Chinese don't only make crap, they make plenty of quality products that most of us would use daily, or at least a portion or components of something. It is my opinion that one would get what one paid for in Chinese vehicles at this time. As with Hyundai when they first came into our market, they lacked quality of design and build. Not now, but now they're not $10990 drive away either.
Good luck with your decision.
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Wake up to yourself, don't try and gloss it over with spin - they are rubbish junk motor vehicles. Their 24k cause their @hit house.
Buy a second hand 95 series Toyota Prado with all the fruit for less than that. Now your in a capable off road vehicle.
What are we spinning? The fact that Great Wall have bought years of R and D by Nissan, Izuzu and Mitsubishi chaeper than they could have done it themselves, The fact that clearly they have bought panel pressings from Izuzu no doubt cheaper than they could have produced new pressings themselves. Most of these cheaper vehicles use older technology to produce a cheaper vehicle. Most Hyundai and Kia vehicles have a motor very similar to a Mitsubishi (possibly produced under licence). In a nutshell they use older technology and R and D purchased from the Japanese producers, And cheaper labour, To produce a cheaper product. Thats not spin its fact. BTW my wife drives a very second hand 95 series prado with all the fruit and over 250,000klm, But that is not the vehicle the question was asked about.
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you guys do realise hiluxs mazda/ford bt-50s an dholden colarado are made in taiwan right
no more japanese build quaity on any of them and no $50 per hour labur rates
they are cheap because they are made cheaply of cheaper materials and with cheap basic styling
i test drove everything when i bought the bt-50 and the ride quality and noise in side the cab was noticble worse with the great wall
i also couldnt see the value in th ehilux either so im not a brand snob.
i was going to get the hilux for resale as we only keep them 100k but our insurance company wouldnt offer us cover as it did not have abs brakes on the base model 4x4 dual cab hilux
for the record id buy a hyundai and th emissus is getting a i30 end of the year, but i expect to keep it till its dead as the resale is woeful
brother n law bought a hyundai santafei and was offered 6k for it trade in at 3 years old
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brother n law bought a hyundai santafei and was offered 6k for it trade in at 3 years old
hmmm.. I just got $18K for mine (and a damned good discount on the patrol as well) at 4yo, with 120k on the clock...
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Would some one have a better holiday in a 200 series towing an ultimate, than a great wall towing a GIC???
Probably yes but there is no point working every weekend to have the best of everything, get what you can afford and get out there, I don't think there is too much snobbery around a good camp fire.
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Junk..
PFFFFT
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hmmm.. I just got $18K for mine (and a damned good discount on the patrol as well) at 4yo, with 120k on the clock...
Hmmm ?
He was trying to trade it in on a 26k Mazda
More room to play with in a 60 k patrol maybe
The car had 80.000 km
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When trying to justify a cheaper price with the price of labour, does anyone know how much human labour is actually involved in a mass produced vehicle.
Robots don't get paid much, and holiday pay for them is non existent.
So, are we talking about 20 labour hours, 100 hours, more????
If it is something like 100 hours, the difference between $50 per hour and $5 per hour is only $4 500. Not exactly a heap of dough percentage wise to justify another $20 000.
I would like to see people making comments like "crap" etc. to show some qualifications for making statements. If it is backed up with knowledge. great, but if it just mindless distrust or stupidity, maybe they should just back off. Given reviews or comments with facts, at least allows readers to make an informed decision.
If I read it right, the latest 4x4 Action magazine showed the results of the Australian Rally, and to my surprise, in the history of the race, no winning Toyota's. Go figure. I guess a mindless comment would be that Toyota's are crap. I think a lot of people would argue.
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Just a small point but most of the utes are made in Thailand and have been for a while. I know the Hilux is, I've been to the factory there. There are benefits from the Thai govt for commercial vehicles that make it attractive for manufacturers.
On the Great Wall, ATECO are an established distributor so you cab expect solid backup. I have no knowledge of the brand apart from looking at one with a friend for his business, then he decided to keep the Lux. But was happy with the value for money and build.
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On the Great Wall, ATECO are an established distributor so you cab expect solid backup.
Find yourself an Alfa forum and see what they have to say about Ateco
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The only thing I'd be concerned about is the size of that petrol motor, it's no fun towing when the vehicle is struggling, maybe take the camper with you next time and test drive it towing your camper.
Baz.
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When trying to justify a cheaper price with the price of labour, does anyone know how much human labour is actually involved in a mass produced vehicle.
Robots don't get paid much, and holiday pay for them is non existent.
Sure robots carry out the final build but there is a lot of human work beforehand building all the sub-assemblies
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Its funny how people Sh!tcan a great wall because its made in china but have no problem buying a tigerz winch or any of the thousands of other things they own that are made in China
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Hmmm ?
He was trying to trade it in on a 26k Mazda
More room to play with in a 60 k patrol maybe
The car had 80.000 km
if he'd sold it privately he'd have got a shedload more than 6k for it. A mate has just bought a 4yo diesel santa fe privately and he's cock-a-hoop that he's got one for $19K. about 80k on that one...
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Really makes me laugh when people sh--can products made in China , just go back a few years and the cry was that Made in Japan meant it was crap , as you sit at your computer berating "made in china" just have a look around , bet you that 50+% of everything you see has some China imput , from the chair your sitting on to the box of paper clips , as for the 1 eyed tojo nissan lovers , have a real good look where a large amount of your beloved vehicle components are actually made , ohh no , there made in ?? CHINA.
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When trying to justify a cheaper price with the price of labour, does anyone know how much human labour is actually involved in a mass produced vehicle.
Robots don't get paid much, and holiday pay for them is non existent.
So, are we talking about 20 labour hours, 100 hours, more?
If it is something like 100 hours, the difference between $50 per hour and $5 per hour is only $4 500. Not exactly a heap of dough percentage wise to justify another $20 000.
Sure, they probably use robots somewhere in their manufacturing process, but if you're thinking that there are a handful of production workers milling around a sea of robots that are putting together their vehicles....... well, that's something out a science fiction movie. Even with the use of robots, people still play a big part in most manufacturing processes. When Mitsubishi were still making cars here in Adelaide they employed approximately 1500 assembly line workers... even though they used robots in their assembly process. Don't forget we're only talking about the assembly of the vehicle here, there are thousands of other people involved in the manufacturing of components and sub assemblies for the vehicle, external to the vehicle manufacturer themselves. Taking this into consideration, the true amount of total labour hours for building a car would more likely be a 1000 man hours, not 100 man hours. On this basis, getting away with paying people a pittance really pays off.
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They are trying to improve their quality control. Wouldn't buy anything made in Japan many years ago.
I would say that any components made in China for use in overseas branded equipment would need to meet that companies quality standards. Parts and equipment made under strict controls.
Would I buy one? Not until they prove themselves over many years.
John.
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Really makes me laugh when people sh--can products made in China , just go back a few years and the cry was that Made in Japan meant it was crap , as you sit at your computer berating "made in china" just have a look around , bet you that 50+% of everything you see has some China imput , from the chair your sitting on to the box of paper clips , as for the 1 eyed tojo nissan lovers , have a real good look where a large amount of your beloved vehicle components are actually made , ohh no , there made in ?? CHINA.
When the Japanese went into mass production after WW2 it's a fact their quality was crap. Over a period time (40 odd years) they turned that around so much so they were touted as leaders in quality control and quality systems (take Toyotas TQM systems as an example). Today a product manufactured in Japan is generally percieved as being of good quality. Taiwan followed suit, but today it's generally accepted their products are also of reasonable quality.
China and India are the new kids on the block and are going down a similar path that Japan did 60 or more so years ago. There is no doubt some good, well made and value for money gear is coming out of China. However, unfortunately there is also a lot of crap too. Until countries like China and India's philosophy on manufacturing quality products, matures, they will continue to have a stigma attached to any products made in their country for a few more years yet, I would suggest.
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Redback
That is still my main concern. The power of the petrol motor and how it might handle towing the trailer.
I might wait a little longer until the diesel version is released.
Everyone - thanks for your comments:- Amongst the various opinions there is some good discussion.
The Great Walls are very cheap but I don't think the price reflects the overall quality which seems pretty good all things considered. If you're after a (new) 4WD capable wagon which is relatively well optioned then it seems a good deal.
It's no LC, Hilux or Patrol (not intending to be) but it's less than 1/2 the price too. These types of vehicles are designed with heavy offroading and longevity in mind but that comes with a huge price tag. I still can't see how they justify those price tags.
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Not an expert, far from it, but 2.4 litres does not seem enough to drag around a 1000Kg CT.
It would be a sad old engine after 30,000 Kms.
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Why are people calling these 'Soft-Roaders'?
I've always thought a soft-roader was an all-wheel-drive/AWD which does not have a low-range option in the transfer case, whereas a 4x4/4WD/four-wheel drive had both low and high range 4 wheel drive.
i.e. A Suzuki Jimny to me, is a 4x4 because it has low-range. Same as my 4x4 Mitsub Triton Ute. A Rav4/X-Trail/Kluger is a soft-roader in my opinion..
My opinion of the topic = the Great Wall definitely has its place in the market. It's not for the full-on off-roaders, but has its place in between those and the 'Soft-roaders'.
Happy shopping!
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as you sit at your computer berating "made in china" just have a look around , bet you that 50+% of everything you see has some China imput , from the chair your sitting on to the box of paper clips
Too true, it's very difficult to find wholly and solely Aussie made products. Although my camper is supposedly Aussie made from Aussie steel, where are the welding components, fittings, tools etc used to make it manufactured? In fact the only Australian made things I can find are my wife (have my doubts, she tans very easily), the VE Valiant in the shed and the Coopers pale in the fridge. The last 2 are even worse than made in China. Made in Adelaide :'(. (No offence South Australians but I still take the 97 grand final pretty hard ;D).
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The big thing that turned me off the chinses imported FWD, is that the RACV impact tests canned the Great Wall, one report said that would be safer on your old Massy grey tractor than in a Great Wall at this period of time until they get their act together , I think I will give them a miss.
As for a soft roader, there are 2 makes with proper 4wd, low range, one is the Nissan Xtrail and the other is the Suzuki Grand Vitrara, both have the ability to engage low range 4wd.
The other makes of soft roaders are a sedan/wagon composite with high ground clearance, 2wd and Awd capibilities, ie permanent split diff, 60 rear 40 front, Toyota I think has the computer control which varies the % between the front and rear depending on traction.
They have a place and are extremely popular.
Me, I like engaging wheel hubs, and tinkering...
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Not an expert, far from it, but 2.4 litres does not seem enough to drag around a 1000Kg CT.
It would be a sad old engine after 30,000 Kms.
But a 3L motor is ok for 3500kg's. albeit a diesel.
I've only done work on 1 great wall, that was fitting a bullbar. Build quality under the bumper didn't look too bad, but the paint work around joins and seams etc was very ordinary, it already had rust appearing around the front seams where the front guards met the rad cross panel. This car was only 3 weeks old. But in saying that did work on a 200 series today that was 2 years old and was quite shocked at how badly it was rusting on the chassis in places.
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Most new brands of vehicles which come onto the market, be they Chinese, Indian, Russian or where ever, seem to have some quality control issues, and reliability issues. Sometimes these issues surface during the warranty period, and sometimes they surface after the warranty period has run out. Perhaps Great Wall will be the market leader in Australia in years to come, but untill they have passed the test of time, I personnally wouldn't consider one. But hay, everyone's entitled to their own opinion.
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In fact the only Australian made things I can find are my wife (have my doubts, she tans very easily), the VE Valiant in the shed and the Coopers pale in the fridge. The last 2 are even worse than made in China. Made in Adelaide :'(. (No offence South Australians but I still take the 97 grand final pretty hard ;D).
[/quote]
Hey Cheesy
I hate the Cows too but they did send the Saints marching didn't they ;D :laugh: :-* anyhow a fine drop like Coopers Pale would be wasted on a mexican :D ;D :laugh: >:D :cheers:
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But a 3L motor is ok for 3500kg's. albeit a diesel.
I've only done work on 1 great wall, that was fitting a bullbar. Build quality under the bumper didn't look too bad, but the paint work around joins and seams etc was very ordinary, it already had rust appearing around the front seams where the front guards met the rad cross panel. This car was only 3 weeks old. But in saying that did work on a 200 series today that was 2 years old and was quite shocked at how badly it was rusting on the chassis in places.
mazda bt-50 3l turbo diesel 4cyl
105 kW @ 3,500 rpm
330 Nm @ 1,800 rpm
great wall 2.4l petrol 4cyl
100kW @5250rpm
200Nm @2500-3000rpm
as long as you dont want to be a speed demon the diesel will pull 3 tonne easily
customer at work has a bt-50 with a 3 tonne trailer he loads with a 2 toone excavator and has now done 160,000,000kays in 18 months all over the state
apart from clutch issues which are now rectified no dramas and he services it every 30 thousand kays
aparantly a double plate clutch is fitted for every day driving he now has a single plate clutch and it hasnt let go in 80,000kays he was getting15 out of the base one
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I hate the Cows too but they did send the Saints marching didnth't they Grin laugh Kiss anyhow a fine drop like Coopers Pale would be wasted on a mexican Cheesy Grin laugh Evil Cheers
Fair play, looking forward to travelling through your beautiful state (maybe with the Val). Back to the thread ;D
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this country won't be happy till we are all speaking Chinese.
can't buy an Aussie made shirt, even our Bonds undies are made OS. Now we're all so focused on saving a few bucks on cars (in the short term), we'll compromise any standards we had.
wake up before the yellow sun is replaced with a yellow star on the aboriginal flag.
they don't call it the C word for no reason
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can't buy an Aussie made shirt,
RM Williams
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find me a RMW store in Townsville
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find me a RMW store in Townsville
- Horseland Townsville
Ph:61 7 4775 5377
Fx:
205 Ross River Road
AITKENVILLE TOWNSVILLE,4814 - Donohues - Townsville
Ph:61 7 4775 5144
Fx:
230 Charters Towers Road
TOWNSVILLE ,4810 - John Melick & Co
Ph:61 7 4771 2292
Fx:
481 Flinders Street
TOWNSVILLE,4810
:D
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thanks
I'll get me some boot scooting pants
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- Horseland Townsville
Ph:61 7 4775 5377
Fx:
205 Ross River Road
AITKENVILLE TOWNSVILLE,4814 - Donohues - Townsville
Ph:61 7 4775 5144
Fx:
230 Charters Towers Road
TOWNSVILLE ,4810 - John Melick & Co
Ph:61 7 4771 2292
Fx:
481 Flinders Street
TOWNSVILLE,4810
:D
Australian or not, I refuse to pay $70 to $120 for a shirt that cost $20 to make >:(
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RMW shirts Australian made ! Yes Yes Yes made from Australian grown cotton that is loomed and dyed in , wait for it ,,,, CHINA.
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Sure, they probably use robots somewhere in their manufacturing process, but if you're thinking that there are a handful of production workers milling around a sea of robots that are putting together their vehicles....... well, that's something out a science fiction movie. Even with the use of robots, people still play a big part in most manufacturing processes. When Mitsubishi were still making cars here in Adelaide they employed approximately 1500 assembly line workers... even though they used robots in their assembly process. Don't forget we're only talking about the assembly of the vehicle here, there are thousands of other people involved in the manufacturing of components and sub assemblies for the vehicle, external to the vehicle manufacturer themselves. Taking this into consideration, the true amount of total labour hours for building a car would more likely be a 1000 man hours, not 100 man hours. On this basis, getting away with paying people a pittance really pays off.
I would have thought that 1000 man hours for a car, at the previously quoted price of $50 per hour would mean a labour content of a Commodore would be $50000. Add on the parts, and a car would exceed $70000.
Doesn't sound feasible to me, no matter what sort of Government compensation was involved.
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Maybe these great wall 4x4,s are the lada niva,s of our times . ;D
craig
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I would have thought that 1000 man hours for a car, at the previously quoted price of $50 per hour would mean a labour content of a Commodore would be $50000. Add on the parts, and a car would exceed $70000.
Doesn't sound feasible to me, no matter what sort of Government compensation was involved
Good point terra vista, however you have just demonstrated "cherry picking". You have taken some of what I said, and added to what someone else said to come up with your conclusion above.
In post 11 I said An average Australian worker working in the car industry would earn around $25/hr.
And in post 33 I said Taking this into consideration, the true amount of total labour hours for building a car would more likely be a 1000 man hours
On this basis the labour cost would equate to $25,000..... a little more feasible perhaps? But whether the labour cost is $25 /hr, or $23.65/hr and the man hours 1000hrs or 835hrs the point is there is a huge difference in labour costs between something made overseas (like China) and something made here in Australia.
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great wall 2.4l petrol 4cyl
100kW @5250rpm
200Nm @2500-3000rpm
as long as you dont want to be a speed demon the diesel will pull 3 tonne easily
Not sure whether it would tow 3 tonne easily, with 200nm of torque thats only 18 more than a Mazda 3! ;D Not overly impressive performance stats by any means IMO.
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I've only done work on 1 great wall, that was fitting a bullbar. Build quality under the bumper didn't look too bad, but the paint work around joins and seams etc was very ordinary, it already had rust appearing around the front seams where the front guards met the rad cross panel. This car was only 3 weeks old.
Sounds like a Landrover Defender...
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And you base this observation on personal experiance?
Please tell us why they are crap and maybe save someone some agravation.
Bill and Morag
read the reviews or maybe just read the 4 pages here.
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http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=68536
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read the reviews or maybe just read the 4 pages here.
I asked what you based your opinion on for a reason.
I was hoping you might have first hand experiance with them
I have seen and read media reviews (tv, magazine, dvd etc.) and the 4 pages of posts here.
My conclusion is 1/2 the media reviews favor the GW and 1/2 dont.
And there are more reviews favoring the GW almost monthly.
But we all know that media reviews are mostly based on the amount of money manufacturers spend on media advertising.
The more a manufacturer spends on media advertising the better the review.
The 4 pages of posts here are about 50-50.
I would like first hand personal experiance from owners or people who have driven them for awhile...
Bill and Morag
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Good point terra vista, however you have just demonstrated "cherry picking". You have taken some of what I said, and added to what someone else said to come up with your conclusion above.
In post 11 I said
And in post 33 I said
On this basis the labour cost would equate to $25,000..... a little more feasible perhaps? But whether the labour cost is $25 /hr, or $23.65/hr and the man hours 1000hrs or 835hrs the point is there is a huge difference in labour costs between something made overseas (like China) and something made here in Australia.
a commodore is assembled in 8 hours travel time on the production chain, this does not include time for paint drying
labour to make parts is already in the cost of the parts
you may have 2 guys putting a engine in taking 1 houreach or 1 guy putting in a windscreen 15mins etc
no way 1000 individual man hours more like 50 individual man hours
my uncle works at fishermans bend in part supplier liason
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Unless you have actually had one and used it for a while, can provide first hand experience of being an owner you will find alot of people talking s___t based on personal opinion with no real quantifiable evidence.
No one is going to know what they are truely like until they have been in the market out here for a while.
Ive seen arguements on the flood of chinese motorcyles, Quads etc flooding this country. There is alot of crap ones out there where the manufacturer has no Quality Control.
I did a fair bit of personal research on this and have found some of the higher standard manufacturers (cream of the crop) from the many crap ones, produce motobikes, Quads and parts which are of good quality. The company I bought my chinese motobike from manufacturers parts for BMW bikes and some of the Jap bike companies (but this is the minority from a crap majority).
Please note I own a few bikes including a good quality Suzuki off road bike and a chinese bike Thumpstar 125 cc 4 stroke for the kids which I also ride 120 KG Max rider load. I have had the chinese bike for 2 years now (not expecting much from it), I have riden it quite a bit, including cruising around paddocks and narrow trails on trips away hunting and fishing.
In the 2 years Ive had it, the only problem Ive had is a flat tyre, some minor tuning and replacing 1 leaking fuel line. I can say that bike has paid for itself with the number of hours Ive riden it over the last years amd lasted far longer than I expected which is a bonus for me. I still ride my Suzuki but like the Pit Bike for mucking around and when my loading for trips is limited. My camper trailer holds 2 x bikes and have used both in mud, creeks and climbed hills chasing feral pigs all over NW NSW.
The Great Wall of China 4x4 is going to be an interesting case study to watch wehter they hold up to what they claim or another lemon. I wouldnt compare them to our traditional 4x4, yet I know too many people who are yuppie 4x4 owners and have seen pathetic photo's of a wanker in an office job bragging he was hard core 4x4 driving on the weekend and the photo's show nothing more than a clean Disco with 1 tyre in 6 inches of water from a mud puddle. Those yuppie owners or soft 4x4 owners dont do anything too hard so the Great Wall 4x4 might have a market for people who wont flog them too much.
Resale I imagine will be crap, but for those prices I would proabably run it into the ground.
Just my 5 cents worth
Gonewalkabouts
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no way 1000 individual man hours more like 50 individual man hours
Based on your statement, if only 50 man hours goes into building a car, then at $25/hour are you saying the total labour cost for building a car in Australia would be $1250?
Have I missed something? ???
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Based on your statement, if only 50 man hours goes into building a car, then at $25/hour are you saying the total labour cost for building a car in Australia would be $1250?
Have I missed something? ???
50 man hours for assembly on the production line
all i know is a shell goes in and 12 hours later its a rolling vehicle ready to be sold
you have design quality control and i assume hundreds of other people involved before it gets to the assembly stage so a little bit of everything they do is factored into the cost
and tbh i doubt the sell price is realistic as the money is in service spare parts and add ons and trying to upsell you from the poverty pack base models
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50 man hours for assembly on the production line
all i know is a shell goes in and 12 hours later its a rolling vehicle ready to be sold
you have design quality control and i assume hundreds of other people involved before it gets to the assembly stage so a little bit of everything they do is factored into the cost
and tbh i doubt the sell price is realistic as the money is in service spare parts and add ons and trying to upsell you from the poverty pack base models
would be about right.
Problem is the 500 hours of supervisor, lower level manager, middle level manager and the list goes on of guys on 80-100k plus that adds to the cost.
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Unless you have actually had one and used it for a while, can provide first hand experience of being an owner you will find alot of people talking s___t based on personal opinion with no real quantifiable evidence.
No one is going to know what they are truely like until they have been in the market out here for a while.
Ive seen arguements on the flood of chinese motorcyles, Quads etc flooding this country. There is alot of crap ones out there where the manufacturer has no Quality Control.
I did a fair bit of personal research on this and have found some of the higher standard manufacturers (cream of the crop) from the many crap ones, produce motobikes, Quads and parts which are of good quality. The company I bought my chinese motobike from manufacturers parts for BMW bikes and some of the Jap bike companies (but this is the minority from a crap majority).
Please note I own a few bikes including a good quality Suzuki off road bike and a chinese bike Thumpstar 125 cc 4 stroke for the kids which I also ride 120 KG Max rider load. I have had the chinese bike for 2 years now (not expecting much from it), I have riden it quite a bit, including cruising around paddocks and narrow trails on trips away hunting and fishing.
In the 2 years Ive had it, the only problem Ive had is a flat tyre, some minor tuning and replacing 1 leaking fuel line. I can say that bike has paid for itself with the number of hours Ive riden it over the last years amd lasted far longer than I expected which is a bonus for me. I still ride my Suzuki but like the Pit Bike for mucking around and when my loading for trips is limited. My camper trailer holds 2 x bikes and have used both in mud, creeks and climbed hills chasing feral pigs all over NW NSW.
The Great Wall of China 4x4 is going to be an interesting case study to watch wehter they hold up to what they claim or another lemon. I wouldnt compare them to our traditional 4x4, yet I know too many people who are yuppie 4x4 owners and have seen pathetic photo's of a wanker in an office job bragging he was hard core 4x4 driving on the weekend and the photo's show nothing more than a clean Disco with 1 tyre in 6 inches of water from a mud puddle. Those yuppie owners or soft 4x4 owners dont do anything too hard so the Great Wall 4x4 might have a market for people who wont flog them too much.
Resale I imagine will be crap, but for those prices I would proabably run it into the ground.
Just my 5 cents worth
Gonewalkabouts
and once they have sorted the issues the pricin will be still low but at a figure you have to decide to i spend 5k to get to the next heapest vehicle
im scpetical and i think they are buying into the market the chinese government controls almost everything exported and will advise on pricing and supply nos
we import roughly one 40 foot container of product from china every 2 weeks and we have to pay a cooperative run by the chinese government and cannot discuss pricing with th emill we buy from, quality order no etc we do but everything else its a gov official
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http://www.caradvice.com.au/113966/2011-great-wall-x240-v240-upgrades-for-australia/
A diesel engine (110KW?) with automatic transmission. Could be interesting.
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I'm under no preconceptions that the Great Wall will be comparable with your LC, Patrol, Hilux,etc...
What's got me really thinking though is the fact that the price difference doesn't equate to the difference in materials and quality.
If Great Wall can make a profit from the X240 at $24K then why is a brand new Kluger, challenger, pathfinder, etc.. $50K+? The profit margin must be huge on these vehicles. I just can't see an extra $25K worth of vehicle.
Maybe in time as Great Wall (and others) improve their cars the Toyota and Nissan will rethink the pricing structure on their cars and come back to something more reasonable.
....hmmmm..... maybe not
probably more likely that Great Wall will increase their prices once they get themselves bedded in the Australian market
Sorry guys I will say upfront I haven't read all 5 pages but I think some of the price difference can be attributed to older technology engines (mentioned before here) and also when Great Wall get a piece from here and a piece from there (not quite the same result as the interceptor ;D) they are buying technology that has had the patents run out. That is they don't have to fork out for R&D on all these components like chassis, body panels, interior trims etc
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http://www.ancap.com.au/results?make=47&model=0&vehicleyear=0
4 Stars is ok with me. My Triton has 4 stars :cheers:
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Unless you have actually had one and used it for a while, can provide first hand experience of being an owner you will find alot of people talking s___t based on personal opinion with no real quantifiable evidence.
Couldn't agree more and applies to a lot more than just this thread IMO.
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A previous statement had a response about power in a BT50.
Holy Crap.
160 million kilometres in 18 months in a BT50 towing an excavator.
That's some travelling. Averaging around 290 thousand kilometres a day, I'd like to see a Great Wall do that.
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A previous statement had a response about power in a BT50.
Holy Crap.
160 million kilometres in 18 months in a BT50 towing an excavator.
That's some travelling. Averaging around 290 thousand kilometres a day, I'd like to see a Great Wall do that.
What helps his ability to cover that much ground is the excavator has two toones. Maybe music makes the time fly faster.
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Interesting!
http://youtu.be/PKA0y5CZcAc
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Interesting!
http://youtu.be/PKA0y5CZcAc
My preference is for a Toyota Hilux, it's even better when the vehicle is supplied by work with a fuel card for personal use also thrown in.....
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Well folks I've owned a Great Wall ute for a year and a half now almost and am very happy with it, has done everything I've asked of it or pointed it at. You will find alot of peoples opinions on them that have never driven one and I'd hardly call them a "Soft Roader" as they do have low range. No they aren't a Patrol or LC they are a Ute etc, totally different vehicles.
For those that are interested in Great Wall owners opinions try Google for Great Wall Owners forum, lots of folks there with info and opinions from a owners point of view and alot do off road driving. My ute only gets driven for off-road fun, touring/camping and wildlife rescue, I have a different car for my daily driver. Anyways, I've taken mine places that I needed to recover Toyotas and Patrols so can't bee too bad. That said it's normally more about the driver than the vehicle most of the time but thats a different topic.
No they aren't built the same as a $50k-$75k 4WD but they have a place in the market and can do about the same as other vehicles of the same type. They are a little under powered, certainly by current standards of what most of us are used to. But I think they are value for money when you take a closer look at them, if they suit your purose/need. Yep I'm bias lol, I own one and love it. I've done decent touring trips and some off roading that some folks just wouldn't even think about putting their vehicle through, I've got a thread on this forum on mine.
No they wont please or suit everyone, but they certainly are not the vehicle alot of people try to make them sound. Sad to see and hear so much hear-say and 2nd hand opinions without a great deal of fact. If they suit your needs and budget I think they are certainly worth researching and considering taking for a test drive. They do most everything fine and tick most boxes, they will tow a load but not very quickly. I still take my camper up into the hills etc and the GW does a ok job, just not a speed demon but I wouldn't want a huge caravan behind me lol.
Here's a couple of pics
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j29/Mitcon_SA/V240233c.jpg)
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j29/Mitcon_SA/V240294c1.jpg)
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j29/Mitcon_SA/vic_09-10018.jpg)
(http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd510/Mitcon4WD/FnB_MegaMett_2010/lynne02-09-10042.jpg)
Oh maybe when they say they mean it's a Soft Roader they mean driving on something soft lol..This bogpit was very soft hehehe
(http://www.gwownersforum.com/resources/image/41)
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They got old technology and then produced it in the cheapest manner possible. So... it's a mitsubishi engine design made from melted beer cans.
Exhaust... rice tin.
Belts... old chewing gum.
Fabric... excessive body hair.
;)
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So what didnt you like about it really ?
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Good one Mitcon, Its good to see you are having a good run and getting out of it what you want. Its unfortunate that there are so many uneducated armchair critics that have mostly not driven or owner the car they criticize, and I thought this was the country to give every thing a fair go. I cant see myself buying one because I need much more grunt for what I want to do but it seems to suit your lifestyle well. All the best and it will be great to see where you take it in the future.
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Good one Mitcon, Its good to see you are having a good run and getting out of it what you want. Its unfortunate that there are so many uneducated armchair critics that have mostly not driven or owner the car they criticize, and I thought this was the country to give every thing a fair go. I cant see myself buying one because I need much more grunt for what I want to do but it seems to suit your lifestyle well. All the best and it will be great to see where you take it in the future.
Thanks for the good wishes and kind remarks, we look forward to many adventures with it. Already done the Vic High Country twice and the west side of Tassie once, man I just love Tassie. Really looking forward to going back there again, it's just a beautiful place and lots of good camping and 4WDing.
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Good one Mitcon, Its good to see you are having a good run and getting out of it what you want. Its unfortunate that there are so many uneducated armchair critics that have mostly not driven or owner the car they criticize, and I thought this was the country to give every thing a fair go. I cant see myself buying one because I need much more grunt for what I want to do but it seems to suit your lifestyle well. All the best and it will be great to see where you take it in the future.
X2 well said :cheers::cup: :cup:
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It will be interesting to see how these go. I predict they will dominate a major portion of the market within 5 - 10 years
Aaron
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Good one Mitcon, Its good to see you are having a good run and getting out of it what you want. Its unfortunate that there are so many uneducated armchair critics that have mostly not driven or owner the car they criticize, and I thought this was the country to give every thing a fair go. I cant see myself buying one because I need much more grunt for what I want to do but it seems to suit your lifestyle well. All the best and it will be great to see where you take it in the future.
X 3
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Nissan Navara and Toyota Hilux made in Thailand, VW Amarok made in Argentina, they are selling a premium badge but made in a 3rd world country, atleast the GW's are honest, I still don't want one..... :-[
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I purchased a power supply for an old MAC off evil bay this week. Next Byte did not have them in stock and i didn't want to wait.
The chinese power supply was 1/3 the cost of the apple one. They were both made in china.
As soon as i plugged it in... I started doing 240V break dance moves. I could feel the alternating current. Luckily the house fuse blew.
Luckily my hand was not burned that badly. Luckily i plugged it in... not one of the kids.
Where matters of your life are at state DO NOT BUY CHEAP CHINESE CRAP.
Of course the 'ever ethical' ebay seller is doing everything possible to not give me a refund.
It's just not worth the risk.
Be safe.
mike
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Where matters of your life are at state DO NOT BUY CHEAP CHINESE CRAP.
It's just not worth the risk.
Wow that's a long bow to draw there Mike. So you had a bad experience with a Chinese power supply, yet you acknowledge the genuine Apple one is also Chinese made. What's the difference (possibly little in terms of $$ to make) I bet it's in the quality control. Arguing you had one issue with a Chinese product so therefore you write ALL of them off (including cars in this thread) is preposterous. Good luck shopping for non "Made in China" goods mate.
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I purchased a power supply for an old MAC off evil bay this week. Next Byte did not have them in stock and i didn't want to wait.
The chinese power supply was 1/3 the cost of the apple one. They were both made in china.
As soon as i plugged it in... I started doing 240V break dance moves. I could feel the alternating current. Luckily the house fuse blew.
Luckily my hand was not burned that badly. Luckily i plugged it in... not one of the kids.
Where matters of your life are at state DO NOT BUY CHEAP CHINESE CRAP.
Of course the 'ever ethical' ebay seller is doing everything possible to not give me a refund.
It's just not worth the risk.
Be safe.
mike
Not everything out of China is crap and besides all sorts of hospital/medical gear that saves your life or keeps you alive is made in China. But if your refering to Chinese/GW vehicles they have similar safety ratings to current vehicles of the same types, and have met or exxceeded Australia safety rules and ADR's. But it is very good to hear your ok.
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I purchased a power supply for an old MAC off evil bay this week.
There's your problem, you should have bought a pc :)
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have met or exxceeded Australia safety rules and ADR's.
That's the point really isn't it. We have standards and design rules for a reason. Buying stuff on ebay is a gamble. How do you know if the stuff does meet the standards? And even they say the meet the standards - how do you know they're not making it up?
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I bought a cheap chinese GPS the other day and programmed it to take me from my house to Healesville race track, as my wife wanted to go to the market there. I let it direct us with me doing exactly what it told me to do. A little over an hour after leaving home and a few slow downs your over the speed limit, the voice piped up and said you are at your destination, i was right at the gates of the racecourse, it got it right 100%.
Yep cheap chinese rubbish that done its job 100%, oh whats that? most major brands of GPS are also made in China?, yeah i know, as are most components we use in every day living, so build a bridge and get over it because your going to have to get used to it sooner than later.
The GW is about to take another leap forward with a diesel donk and an auto tranny ( no auto for the ute just yet though) and a redesined front end thats not so smugly. I have no opinion on them other than i have my eyes open to see what they come up with next. I believe they will eventually have a huge slice of the market.
When i was a kid people used to say dont buy Japanese rubbish, now i guess its the Chinese turn.
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I wasn't clear enough. The focus was on CHEAP.
China CAN make high quality goods. Most companies (from all countries) ask the chinese to make it CHEAP.
It's built to a price NOT a specification.
And don't even get me started about the lack of choice in the big shops... you have 5 CHEAP cd players to chose from... each one worse that the last!
The greed has gone too far!
I have been hurt by a cheap Daewoo in the past and countless other pieces of faeces that were built on the cheap.
My fear is that great fall fits into this. Chinese are not magicians. They do not have some secret to making QUALITY goods cheap.
95% of the time you do actually get what you pay for.
FWIW, i do buy chinese products. If i really don't care that it will break then chinese is ok. But if i need to rely in it or if safety is concerned... then i will buy the best i can afford.
mike
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It is so good to see somebody enjoy their purchase (extraordinary value for money also) and prove the be-grudgers to be so myopic. Well done!! The new (Haval H5?) may just be about to make topic even more interesting.
Regards P (not a Great Wall owner Or Nissan Or Toyota OR Mitsubishi etc etc)
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The second hand market for the Great Wall will be a big test for it, saw one the other day in the local has done 10k on the clock 4x4, 2010 model, cab chasis set up, wanted $13500, Redbook has the same model $26000 on road new with $14000 as commercial trade in, private starts at $18000.
So by all accounts, the Great Wall with low K's, bloody good pick up on the second hand market, until their reputation picks up.
I've spoken to a few mates in the game, so to speak, for the top end, Toyota and Nissan 4x4 have the reputation, the rest are picking up the crumbs so to speak, Toyota has the runs on the board, the second hand market loves them with low K's, for they get a good mark up.
Checked up with a couple of mates in the crash game, one has had a Great Wall in, it fell over and hurt itself, he was impressed solid build with the simplicity, a bang here, straighten up there and the thing, bit of patch, spalsh of paint was back on the road. It reminded him of the subaru brumby 4x4 ute..(shame they still don't sell them here still...personal view...)
By all reports, he would buy a Great Wall if he has a spare 26k, but he picked up a 80 series with low k's (100K), diesel, bars, steps, and winch and at a bloody good price..(would'nt tell me the price..secret) .so it was a lay down...
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It'll certainly be interesting to see how the small 2L diesel donk goes. From the reports so far it's surprising and would almost certainly be a improvement over the 2.4 petrol, still I don't think we'll see those for sale here untill Sep or so. I doubt we'll see the auto in the utes either, I reckon they'll just be in the wagon to start with.
And 2nd hand they are even better value because of the fairly low resale on them still. I've seen them for sale with canopies and bullabrs already fitted with 2 years warranty still for like $17k, thats pretty cheap for whats still pretty much a new 4WD. They already have a place in the market and will develop a bigger share over the next few years I'm sure but I don't think they will dominate anything. Trols and Roll-lux's will still be secure in their market I reckon, though with some luck vehicles like the Great Walls may help sake up the higher end of the market a little.
If that does end up being the case we're all winners because as nice as Toyotas are they are very costly, wouldn't hurt to see them become more competitive in the market.
I myself am not worried about the folks that don't like Great Walls, we're all entitled to our own opinions and preffered brands...No real right or wrong there as long as people buy what suits their needs more so than just because of a price. Thats when people get let down by a vehicle the most, when we make a poor choice and buy what we want rather than what we need. But the down side to folks with the 2nd hand info thats not based on fact is it comes across as fear-mongering, better to be constructive with criticism and give it in a positive manner so as to better arm people with real knowledge as to help them make better infomred choices.
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I have 28months (hey but whos counting?) before i upgrade my car and prepare for life more on the road than not.
Heres a bit of a list i have at the moment that i am doing homework on, just looking not buying at this point.
Land Rover Defender: Grew up driving series series I, II's and IIA's so have a big soft spot for the pom and all its crazy little quirks and jerks.
Landcruiser in all its variants but the 70series wagon GXL would be my choice if it gets the final nod. Tested the original FJ's back in the day when the Amry was looking at them, also drove a 70series as an Armoured car back in the 90's, and have had 2 hilux twin cabs
Isuzu DMax twin cab 4X4 ute 3l, Owned a twin cab Rodeo/Isuazu back in the early 90's, they sure have improved since then.
Nissan Patrol, waiting to see what they come up with next although i dont mind towing my mates boat with his DX. They are a pretty solid workhorse and there's plenty around.
Looking a little less at:
Mitsubishi Challenger: a mate has one and loves it to death, had one follow me along the Tasmanian West Coast Western Explorer Rd at a good clip and he was doing pretty well, considering i have a modified Subaru Forester that would eat the big 4x4's under these more rally like conditions at a lets say fast pace in a run from Corinna to Arthur River.
peeking at with binoculars:
the GW twin cab 4x4 to see what they come up within the next 2+yrs.
I am a never say never type of guy but what is coming up to be my last car i am still very undecided and all the factors i am looking at including longevity and reliability it makes it a hard task to single one out, but as i said the man from china is getting a look and i would be stupid not to.
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I have been hurt by a cheap Daewoo in the past and countless other pieces of faeces that were built on the cheap.
My fear is that great fall fits into this. Chinese are not magicians. They do not have some secret to making QUALITY goods cheap.
95% of the time you do actually get what you pay for.
FWIW, i do buy chinese products. If i really don't care that it will break then chinese is ok. But if i need to rely in it or if safety is concerned... then i will buy the best i can afford.
mike
One point Daewwoo weren't Chinese..they are Korean..they had Holden engines in them (be good or bad)
And its also the same place that all your smaller Holden and GMH vehicles come from such Astras etc still today
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Just my opinion, but if they put a 3litre + engine in the great wall think they would cop a lot less flack. For the money they seem to represent good value, for a new car purchase. But based on owning earlier model 4x4s with similar sized engines and finding them lacking in the power department when 4 wheeling. I guess it would be easy for people to assume they were comparing similar animals. Anyway bring on a 3+? engined great wall and i think we'll see them sell like hot cakes, and by starting at the small end there is plenty of room for advancement. Anyhow great to see and hear people happy with there purchaser's, and its a good read..
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One point Daewwoo weren't Chinese..they are Korean..they had Holden engines in them (be good or bad)
And its also the same place that all your smaller Holden and GMH vehicles come from such Astras etc still today
Not sure where you get your information from but the Astra is actually made in Belgium by Opel ???
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Good to see they used the Prado steering wheel for the new model
(http://www.greatwallmotors.com.au/images/great_wall/gallery/new-v240/V240_Steering_Wheel_Gauges.jpg)