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Author Topic: D.I.Y Lithium battery set up  (Read 12277 times)

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Offline edz

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D.I.Y Lithium battery set up
« on: September 30, 2019, 01:30:07 AM »
Surfing the net for Lithium batteries and found this guy ..Thought the D.I.Y. Tinkers amongst us might like to have a go at a cheap Lithium battery set up ..
https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/diy-lifepo4-solar-battery.html   ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4pN4DVPOcY
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Offline Bigfish

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Re: D.I.Y Lithium battery set up
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2019, 07:56:04 AM »
Quote from: edz on September 30, 2019, 01:30:07 AM
Surfing the net for Lithium batteries and found this guy ..Thought the D.I.Y. Tinkers amongst us might like to have a go at a cheap Lithium battery set up ..
https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/diy-lifepo4-solar-battery.html   ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4pN4DVPOcY

Looks like a real alternative.  Reviews seem positive.   I am making the transition to Lithium for the 2 x37kg agms in the rear of the Pajero to get the weight down. Have enerdrive chargers (240 and dcdc) ready for the change and a Victron 100/30 regulator.....just have to bite the bullet for 200amp power of lithium.
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Offline edz

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Re: D.I.Y Lithium battery set up
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2019, 10:10:27 AM »
I'm with you  BF  on the weight / power side of things, just dont fancy lumping  two 35 Kg batteries  around when I could have the same power in one 13 Kg battery ..
aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-lifepo4-3.2v-100ah.html?switch_new_app=y
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 11:23:06 AM by edz »
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Offline austastar

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Re: D.I.Y Lithium battery set up
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2019, 01:04:45 PM »


Quote from: Bigfish on September 30, 2019, 07:56:04 AM
Looks like a real alternative.  Reviews seem positive.   I am making the transition ....just have to bite the bullet for 200amp power of lithium.

Hi,
    You won't regret it.
Absolutely no buyer's regret with mine.
Cheers



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Offline Bigfish

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Re: D.I.Y Lithium battery set up
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2019, 06:22:42 PM »
Quote from: austastar on September 30, 2019, 01:04:45 PM

Hi,
    You won't regret it.
Absolutely no buyer's regret with mine.
Cheers

Unfortunately I have 3 x 120 amp fullrivers in the camper that are still in excellent condition after 3 years....however the 2 x 130 amp ssb agm,s in the rear tub of the car are 3 years and showing significant degradation.   One is at about 60% and the other at 75% capacity....Hopefully this wet season up here will see them go over.... :laugh: 

What brand of lithium did you go with?

cheers :cheers:


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Offline rapid80

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Re: D.I.Y Lithium battery set up
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2019, 03:48:36 PM »
I'm making the switch to LIFEPO4 batteries as well and found its not half as daunting as I thought. I bought 4 100A cells from EV works https://www.evworks.com.au/calb-ca100
He supplied the interconnects and a low voltage disconnect and will bottom balance the batteries. He said as long as I use a decent DC-DC charger so it limits over-voltage I'm good to go. No issues in Perth with the cold so its just about controlling upper and lower voltages.
All up cost was $705 plus the DC-DC
I'm doing it for a new install as I can stack the batteries in a line behind the back seats of an Amarok and get the DC-DC alongside so everything is inside the car and leaves the tray empty.
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Offline austastar

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Re: D.I.Y Lithium battery set up
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2019, 06:36:06 PM »
Fusion from batteriesdirect.
Cheers

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Offline weeds

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Re: D.I.Y Lithium battery set up
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2019, 07:11:28 PM »
Quote from: rapid80 on October 01, 2019, 03:48:36 PM
I'm making the switch to LIFEPO4 batteries as well and found its not half as daunting as I thought. I bought 4 100A cells from EV works https://www.evworks.com.au/calb-ca100
He supplied the interconnects and a low voltage disconnect and will bottom balance the batteries. He said as long as I use a decent DC-DC charger so it limits over-voltage I'm good to go. No issues in Perth with the cold so its just about controlling upper and lower voltages.
All up cost was $705 plus the DC-DC
I'm doing it for a new install as I can stack the batteries in a line behind the back seats of an Amarok and get the DC-DC alongside so everything is inside the car and leaves the tray empty.

What the total capacity in amp/hrs with four joined......?


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Offline glenm64

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Re: D.I.Y Lithium battery set up
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2019, 09:10:21 PM »


Quote from: weeds on October 01, 2019, 07:11:28 PM
What the total capacity in amp/hrs with four joined......?


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100
Each cell is 3.2v, you need 4 to make a 12v system.

Cheers Glen

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Offline weeds

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Re: D.I.Y Lithium battery set up
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2019, 09:24:52 PM »
Quote from: glenm64 on October 01, 2019, 09:10:21 PM




100
Each cell is 3.2v, you need 4 to make a 12v system.

Cheers Glen

Yep understand the need for four....just couldn’t work out the 100amp/hr

I’m struggling to understand the benefits of four batteries joined compared to one single 100amp/hr....


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Offline BC66

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Re: D.I.Y Lithium battery set up
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2019, 09:41:36 PM »
Quote from: weeds on October 01, 2019, 09:24:52 PM
Yep understand the need for four....just couldn’t work out the 100amp/hr

I’m struggling to understand the benefits of four batteries joined compared to one single 100amp/hr....


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Inside a big 100 ah is 4 little batteries.
It’s the same thing.



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Offline weeds

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Re: D.I.Y Lithium battery set up
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2019, 09:58:36 PM »
Quote from: BC66 on October 01, 2019, 09:41:36 PM
Inside a big 100 ah is 4 little batteries.
It’s the same thing.



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Are there you go.....

the ‘big’ 100 ah is neater and all contained....but if space is tricky than I see benefits of buying the separately.


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Offline Bigfish

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Re: D.I.Y Lithium battery set up
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2019, 06:16:36 AM »
Quote from: weeds on October 01, 2019, 09:58:36 PM
Are there you go.....

the ‘big’ 100 ah is neater and all contained....but if space is tricky than I see benefits of buying the separately.


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Dont forget that each of the 4 little batteries is only about 3.2 volts so hence the reason why 4 are required for a 12 volt battery..
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Offline tryagain

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Re: D.I.Y Lithium battery set up
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2019, 07:31:06 AM »
Quote from: weeds on October 01, 2019, 09:58:36 PM
Are there you go.....

the ‘big’ 100 ah is neater and all contained....but if space is tricky than I see benefits of buying the separately.

That's basically the DIY bit, joining the 4 smaller cells into a larger battery. I did see Will (original video linked) in another of his videos say that for the average person that buying a ready made battery is probably better value for most, especially one that comes with a reasonable warranty.

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Offline edz

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Re: D.I.Y Lithium battery set up
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2019, 07:44:53 AM »
EDIT .... put up an Optimum ion 100 amp LiFePO4 seemed quite good till you read some reviews  " Umm No good "
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 09:20:50 AM by edz »
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Offline tryagain

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Re: D.I.Y Lithium battery set up
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2019, 09:45:52 AM »
If I was looking at doing decent a power setup for a big lap etc, I would be looking at going one of these Tesla battery modules. For comparison's sake, that produces about the same as 4 x 12v 120Ah lithium (liFePo4) batteries, but at half of their weight, a third of their volume and a fair bit cheaper! Being Tesla modules too, it contains the best quality lithium cells (LiIon) that are currently being produced, and are designed for a much harder life than they are going to get in an RV.

An issue though is that it's 24v as opposed to 12v, that's pretty easily and cheaply dealt with it you are doing a setup from scratch for most things, but not so being able to charge from vehicles with a 12v alternator. But like most problems, they can be viewed as an opportunity, if you added an additional 24v alternator then you could make use of the batteries rapid charging capability. Say if you added a 100A 24V alternator, you could then charge the batteries at a 12v equivalent of 200A, this would mean you could go from low batteries to half full in just over an hr.

The other advantages of a setup like this are I think pretty significant too, you could do away with an LPG set up by using an inverter to power 240v induction cooktops and a 240v instant hot water heater, that alone would be pretty significant cost as well as weight savings. You could also then use 240v airconditioners and fridges which are both generally quite a bit cheaper as well as more efficient due to the economies of scale involved with their design and construction.

It might not stack up as well if you are looking to retrofit, but a new build I think would be well worth it.       
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 09:48:09 AM by tryagain »
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Offline Poita

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Re: D.I.Y Lithium battery set up
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2019, 07:12:27 PM »
Tryagain, the issue with those is they are a different chemistry than than LiFePO4, and are much more volatile and sensive to charge and discharge rates. We use them a lot at work and there is no way of use them in my camper.
LiFePO4 is a safer option by a long shot and what I use in my camper.

Lion also do not like heat (very common when camping in summer) and typically have only a third of the charge cycles of LiFePO4.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 07:15:44 PM by Poita »
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Offline tryagain

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Re: D.I.Y Lithium battery set up
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2019, 10:18:17 PM »
Quote from: Poita on October 02, 2019, 07:12:27 PM
Tryagain, the issue with those is they are a different chemistry than than LiFePO4, and are much more volatile and sensive to charge and discharge rates. We use them a lot at work and there is no way of use them in my camper.
LiFePO4 is a safer option by a long shot and what I use in my camper.

Lion also do not like heat (very common when camping in summer) and typically have only a third of the charge cycles of LiFePO4.

Yes, it's a different chemistry, (Although they are both considered types of Li-ion) but it's not so much an issue, not sure what you use at work but maybe the LiCoO2 which has a comparatively short cycle life. Tesla/Panasonic, however, has the best battery researchers/engineers working for them and they have good cycle life, The cycle difference wouldn't be as you think, LiFePO4 is considered to be good for 2000 cycles, Musk has said that their current batteries are good for 1500 cycles, and that would be with the high demand requirements of an EV, using it for power in an RV would be far kinder to the battery and therefore you would get a lot more cycles than that. Their new battery tech is even better and supposed to only degrade by 10% after 4000 cycles!

Yes, LiFeP04 is safer, but as long as the proper precautions are taken in the setup, like they are in EV's etc the other Li-ion chemistries are considered pretty safe as well. The sort of ambient heat you get from camping shouldn't really be an issue, it wouldn't be any worse than what they are designed for in an EV, freezing temperatures can be an issue that has to be taken into consideration though.

Due to the lower cell voltage, LiFeP04 is really the only option for a 12v replacement. However, I think other chemistries and higher voltages is still where I would go like I originally mentioned. Having said all of that, if people don't understand them well, I wouldn't recommend them playing around with it, there is a lot more to make it work safely than the summary I laid out.
 
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Offline Craig Tomkinson

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Re: D.I.Y Lithium battery set up
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2019, 05:50:51 AM »
At The moment for me it way to complicated to change, But so was solar when I started playing with it 7 years ago now its nothing, When you get yours sorted Mr Edz and have a cost and it working well I mite give it a go, 
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Offline edz

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Re: D.I.Y Lithium battery set up
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2019, 07:10:42 AM »
Ta Craig, Im up to  needing a replacement second battery, love the weight  and usable power of the LiFePO4,  being less than half and almost double of the lead battery .
 But being a tight arse.
 JUST got to get my head around  baulking at the gate a bit with the cost and the unknown lifespan of the electronics ..  :D
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Offline BC66

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D.I.Y Lithium battery set up
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2019, 07:45:14 AM »
For me personally the idea of a separate  BMS is ideal because as some of you may know so work in the battery industry and we had one lithium that was dead on the shelf. The factory asked me to cut the battery down and test all the cells etc and it turned out it had a faulty BMS.
That battery became an expensive display model.
Well kinda, the factory gave us a credit.
But because of its design to look like a normal battery , the BMS is sealed inside the case rendering it useless once we cut it open.

Choose carefully as there is a lot of cheap junk out there. Look for after sales service, something most ebay sellers can not provide. A reputable company will be able to offer tech details and support and send a replacement if you break down in Woop.

As a member of the Australian Battery Industry Association ABIA, lithium is a growing concern because of too many people offering different opinions on how to set them up, using the wrong chemist for the wrong application and the biggest concern is recycling!
One lithium battery in among a load of lead acid batteries at the recycling centre can destroy a whole batch.
We are working on ways to make a uniform identification system or color for lithium but it’s hard in an unregulated industry.
Anyway
That’s my two cents worth
Buy a quality battery from a reputable company and make sure your solar is set up to suit.


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« Last Edit: October 03, 2019, 07:49:27 AM by BC66 »
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Offline Craig Tomkinson

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Re: D.I.Y Lithium battery set up
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2019, 08:09:59 AM »
Me to a tight ass, My mate Murray is fitting a few to his ally canopies he builds, will see what he is using as he is a aircraft engineering he only uses the best quality ones and charging set ups
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Offline Fizzie

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Re: D.I.Y Lithium battery set up
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2019, 08:10:22 AM »
Quote from: edz on October 03, 2019, 07:10:42 AM
Ta Craig, Im up to  needing a replacement second battery, love the weight  and usable power of the LiFePO4,  being less than half and almost double of the lead battery .
 But being a tight arse.
 JUST got to get my head around  baulking at the gate a bit with the cost and the unknown lifespan of the electronics ..  :D

I'm with you edz.

We've got a 3 year old, 110Ah AGM in the van. When it dies, I'll be looking at replacing it with the equivalent Lithium, or maybe even go something like 2 x 80Ah lithium, which would provide backup if one died, while also doubling the amount of power available ;D
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Offline BC66

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Re: D.I.Y Lithium battery set up
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2019, 08:19:24 AM »
I’m going to stick with AGM
They do the job, cheaper and more readily available and it’s proven tech.
I’m old school
Lead Graphite is the next one to look out for.


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Offline Fizzie

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Re: D.I.Y Lithium battery set up
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2019, 08:21:22 AM »
Don't disagree with a word you say, BC!

I'm just thinking about the 30kg weight saving! ;D
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