Power and gas is to expensive.

[gronk]

Yep.

Wind turbines usually don't spin on hot days 'cos there's either too much wind, or not enough.....

 

So we get a hot windless day, overcast , and the greenies have closed all our power stations........??

How big was that Tesla battery again ?? 

[Pete79]

You have.....but my "general" comment was just that.
In high temps, going by that essay on reduced efficiency , all they do is increase the output of the power station, as they generally never run at full steam.......unless you can find another essay that says otherwise.....

We’ll have to save that one for another insomnia night.

But you could be right.
If they don’t run plants at full capacity to give them a safety buffer in good times.
Then if they ramp them right up and max them out when they’re running inefficiently in the heat, that would perfectly explain why they fail so much in heat waves...


Edit;
I noticed in my studies last night that one of the coal fired power stations that failed in VIC yesterday, has consistently failed in several previous heat events. It was the second time this year that plant fell over.

[Pottsy]

So we get a hot windless day, overcast , and the greenies have closed all our power stations........??

How big was that Tesla battery again ?? 

Hornsdale at Jamestown 120mwh and another to come on line at lake Bonney in the SE at 52mwh.

[Fizzie]

In high temps, going by that essay on reduced efficiency , all they do is increase the output of the power station, as they generally never run at full steam.......unless you can find another essay that says otherwise.....

They try to avoid it, but from Whirlpool at 4.50pm Thursday

"Well hats off to the team at TIPS (Torrens Island Power Station) – 1,245MW output out of 1,320MW. Doing damn well IMO."

It's even better – the actual plant capacity is 1280 MW not 1320 :-)

The "A" station units have hit 100% of their original (1967) rated capacity by the way.

[Fizzie]

Besides it’s those Mexicans that should be hot under the collars right now, us Queenslanders are living in the goldy locks zone at the moment.

& over these last couple of days, it's been excess generation from Qld that has pretty well kept NSW & Vic from collapsing altogether

Reckon they should throw the State of Origin to say thanks

[Fizzie]

Got to wonder then why Playford at Pt Augusta which was commissioned in 1985 was decommissioned in past few years and demolished.

This, together with Northern & Hazlewood, were all closed because their foreign owners (partially / mainly Govts of France, China & Singapore ) decided that they were no longer profitable enough to keep operating

Keep supplying power to the people of Australia Nah, don't give two stuffs about that, we're only interested in maximum $ for minimum expenditure

Build more coal power stations,

No one is going to put up that kind of investment, when the future for coal fired power stations looks uncertain over the next 10 years

No, so if anybody wants to build one, it will have to be funded by Oz Govt, either State or Federal.

& you can see it now, 10 years in advance ...

The Laberal Party decides to fund & build a new $3 billion power station. They get thrown out at the next election & the first thing the incoming Libeur Party does is announce that they always opposed wasting so much money on an already obsolete, unneeded (because we haven't had a blackout in the last 6 months white elephant, so they're going to sell it to private enterprise to operate. Guess who buys it Then 30 years further down the track, when it's approaching needed mid-life maintenance upgrades, what happens

Power supply should never have been tendered out to private enterprise, who's only interest is $

[Bird]

No, so if anybody wants to build one, it will have to be funded by Oz Govt, either State or Federal.

& you can see it now, 10 years in advance ...

The Laberal Party decides to fund & build a new $3 billion power station. They get thrown out at the next election & the first thing the incoming Libeur Party does is announce that they always opposed wasting so much money on an already obsolete, unneeded (because we haven't had a blackout in the last 6 months white elephant, so they're going to sell it to private enterprise to operate. Guess who buys it Then 30 years further down the track, when it's approaching needed mid-life maintenance upgrades, what happens

Power supply should never have been tendered out to private enterprise, who's only interest is $

hes seen the future....  which one are you/?

[GeoffA]

This, together with Northern & Hazlewood, were all closed because their foreign owners (partially / mainly Govts of France, China & Singapore ) decided that they were no longer profitable enough to keep operating

Keep supplying power to the people of Australia Nah, don't give two stuffs about that, we're only interested in maximum $ for minimum expenditure ......

Hazelwood's fate was sealed when Red Dan tripled the excise on brown coal.....

[Pottsy]

Hazelwood's fate was sealed when Red Dan tripled the excise on brown coal.....

As was Northern when the Weatherill govt decided on going down the renewables road in SA.

[gronk]

Power supply should never have been tendered out to private enterprise, who's only interest is $

Even the average joe blow in the street could see that....BUT, for short term profit, the pollies look good when they can bank roll a project, then what have you got left....a privately owned company holding you to ransom !!

1st it was coal mines, then the power stations, then the roads, then the hospitals, then the aged care.....do we own anything anymore ??
Us dumb "normal" people can see what was going on....why is it so hard for the pollies to understand

[austastar]

Hi,
   Is it that the can see their pension at the end of the tunnel?
Cheers

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

[tryagain]

I don't think state owned power really helps https://www.afr.com/news/politics/stateowned-power-companies-entrench-high-prices-says-australian-energy-regulator-20170718-gxdd1z

[Bird]

I don't think state owned power really helps https://www.afr.com/news/politics/stateowned-power-companies-entrench-high-prices-says-australian-energy-regulator-20170718-gxdd1z

so if it aint Gov co owned, and private has proved to be a flop... who should run it

[tryagain]

so if it aint Gov co owned, and private has proved to be a flop... who should run it

Without giving it to much thought I'd say privately run with the right policy requirements in place.
I think the situation we find ourselves in with power issues probably has many causes, but if I were to point the finger, it would be at the previous SA Gov and the current Vic one for speeding up the demise of coal fired power plant when renewables + storage aren't yet economically viable alternatives.

[GeoffA]

Without giving it to much thought I'd say privately run with the right policy requirements in place.
I think the situation we find ourselves in with power issues probably has many causes, but if I were to point the finger, it would be at the previous SA Gov and the current Vic one for speeding up the demise of coal fired power plant when renewables + storage aren't yet economically viable alternatives. being idiots.....

Fixed it for ya .....

[Bird]

https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/german-plan-to-phase-out-coal-would-cost-a-cool-64-billion-20190127-p50tx5.html

[tryagain]

https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/german-plan-to-phase-out-coal-would-cost-a-cool-64-billion-20190127-p50tx5.html

If you could come up with a design to cheaply store power with minimal environmental impact and patent it you could become a billionaire overnight.

[Fizzie]

https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/german-plan-to-phase-out-coal-would-cost-a-cool-64-billion-20190127-p50tx5.html

"each of the interest groups had accepted concessions with an eye to achieving a result."

Ahh, well, that wipes out any chance of anything similar ever happening in Australia

[moeite]

Hazelwood's fate was sealed when Red Dan tripled the excise on brown coal.....

Nope. The reason Hazelwood closed is that to bring it up to REQUIRED minimum safety standards would cost Engie between $400m and $1b dollars. Engie said at the time that if they could get all the coal for nothing it would STILL not be a viable proposition.

[GeoffA]

Nope. The reason Hazelwood closed is that to bring it up to REQUIRED minimum safety standards would cost Engie between $400m and $1b dollars. Engie said at the time that if they could get all the coal for nothing it would STILL not be a viable proposition.

Who imposed the "REQUIRED minimum safety standards"?

Did it comply with the standards of the day when they bought it?

[moeite]

Who imposed the "REQUIRED minimum safety standards"?

Worksafe Victoria

Did it comply with the standards of the day when they bought it?

Yes - only just though. They only did the bare minimum maintenance. Worksafe went through the place and found a heap of corrosion, cracked welds, etc. and required Engie to complete major repairs to five of the eight units. To do the work the five units would need to be offline for in excess of three months. That loss of generating capacity for that period was NOT factored into the cost of the required work.
When Engie purchased Hazelwood even Blind Freddie could've seen that it was an ageing plant that would need MAJOR work in the not too distant future.

[DrewXT]

Some sense at last.

Three strategically placed "clean" reactors would fix the entire country's baseload issue, and mean that our coal fired generators could be used to service peak load times.

I find it amusing that both sides of government touts solar and wind as a solution, yet one is useless in the dark, and the other when it's not windy.

My wife and I have been looking to import a really aesthically pleasing wind turbine from Europe, but the paperwork to even start discussions, OMFG...

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[GeoffA]

Yes - only just though. They only did the bare minimum maintenance....

I was involved in the PLE that was done in the late '80's. It was old then....

 

[tryagain]

Three strategically placed "clean" reactors would fix the entire country's baseload issue, and mean that our coal fired generators could be used to service peak load times.

I find it amusing that both sides of government touts solar and wind as a solution, yet one is useless in the dark, and the other when it's not windy.

My wife and I have been looking to import a really aesthically pleasing wind turbine from Europe, but the paperwork to even start discussions, OMFG...

The issue is modern "clean" coal-fired power plants aren't as cheap as an old one that's still operating. Solar and wind have dropped dramatically in price and are cheaper than new coal-fired power plants, the issue is that as you point out they are intermittent. Power storage is likely to drop in price a whole lot in the near future which will likely see solar and wind plus storage being cheaper than a new "clean" Coal-fired power plant so they now have to sell cheaper to compete, and the ROI just isn't there resulting in a loss for whoever builds it. 

And the issue of using Coal-fired power plants intermittently is they are a bit like a freight train, good when they are running but take a lot of time and effort to get started and then stop again.

[DrewXT]

The issue is modern "clean" coal-fired power plants aren't as cheap as an old one that's still operating. Solar and wind have dropped dramatically in price and are cheaper than new coal-fired power plants, the issue is that as you point out they are intermittent. Power storage is likely to drop in price a whole lot in the near future which will likely see solar and wind plus storage being cheaper than a new "clean" Coal-fired power plant so they now have to sell cheaper to compete, and the ROI just isn't there resulting in a loss for whoever builds it. 

And the issue of using Coal-fired power plants intermittently is they are a bit like a freight train, good when they are running but take a lot of time and effort to get started and then stop again.

I meant clean nukes, not coal fired... Rather than lease our uranium and bring it back to have to dispose of it from dirty reactors, we could build cleaner reactors than those we lease to, and dispose of what we use ourselves

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk