Power and gas is to expensive.

[Bird]

No worries...we have hbig reserves of diesel.....oops...well at enough for 30 days!  The govt has absolutely no idea about Australias power needs or its future direction.  No wonder we are the quarry of the world..

they are only concerned about getting reelected the next election.

[Pete79]

Load shedding has started in VIC.

Reason?
3 existing thermal power generators failed last night and this morning.
Then the weather got hotter and stayed hotter then expected and the existing thermal power generators could not continue working at full capacity and output was cut but 18,000mW.


Going to have to add another line to that war cry of “reliable, dispatchable power supply”.
And include something about actually working when it’s hot and sunny.

I have no idea what sort of power generation works best when it’s hot and sunny, perhaps one day someone will figure that one out....

[plusnq]

Load shedding has started in VIC.

Reason?
3 existing thermal power generators failed last night and this morning.
Then the weather got hotter and stayed hotter then expected and the existing thermal power generators could not continue working at full capacity and output was cut but 18,000mW.


Going to have to add another line to that war cry of “reliable, dispatchable power supply”.
And include something about actually working when it’s hot and sunny.

I have no idea what sort of power generation works best when it’s hot and sunny, perhaps one day someone will figure that one out....

 

[paceman]

Load shedding has started in VIC.

Reason?
3 existing thermal power generators failed last night and this morning.
Then the weather got hotter and stayed hotter then expected and the existing thermal power generators could not continue working at full capacity and output was cut but 18,000mW.


Going to have to add another line to that war cry of “reliable, dispatchable power supply”.
And include something about actually working when it’s hot and sunny.

I have no idea what sort of power generation works best when it’s hot and sunny, perhaps one day someone will figure that one out....

Probably the same one that works at night or when the wind stops?

Or maybe the one that has a battery that lasts for a whole hour for the whole state?

Mate, I get it.  You think I’m just some crackpot who thinks coal is the only answer.

That’s cool.  You’re obviously much smarter than plenty of people, including me, because it’s obviously such an easy problem to solve.

Look back on my posts and find where I have ever said that coal was the only answer...

It’s ridiculous and flat out inflammatory comments like yours that make this whole discussion, not a discussion at all.

Oh and one more thing... maybe just check how many units of coal generation were running and their output, compared to the wind and solar...

Be thankful there was some coal generation at all, because if we had to rely on solar and wind, there’d be plenty less power to go around.

Also, when qld had their recent heatwave conditions, I can’t remember us having the power problems that other states have had.  I wonder why...

Enjoy your day...


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[D4D]

I've got the answer, we get Clive Palmer to send every Aussie a txt with his new policy of building a nuclear power station. 

[Pete79]

Probably the same one that works at night or when the wind stops?

Or maybe the one that has a battery that lasts for a whole hour for the whole state?

Mate, I get it.  You think I’m just some crackpot who thinks coal is the only answer.

That’s cool.  You’re obviously much smarter than plenty of people, including me, because it’s obviously such an easy problem to solve.

Look back on my posts and find where I have ever said that coal was the only answer...

It’s ridiculous and flat out inflammatory comments like yours that make this whole discussion, not a discussion at all.

Oh and one more thing... maybe just check how many units of coal generation were running and their output, compared to the wind and solar...

Be thankful there was some coal generation at all, because if we had to rely on solar and wind, there’d be plenty less power to go around.

Also, when qld had their recent heatwave conditions, I can’t remember us having the power problems that other states have had.  I wonder why...

Enjoy your day...


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Settle petal...

Back off with all the personal stuff mate. Nothing in my throw away comment was directed at anyone, especially not at you.

I meant nothing more then what I wrote, which I’ve read again and can’t see where I attacked anyone.

As I wrote, the weather got hot, the old crappy power stations couldn’t cope and people got their aircons turned off.
The fact that output from thermal power gets greatly reduced in extreme heat is worth noting in this discussion (and as far as I’m concerned this is a discussion, not an attack on anyone’s right to their opinion).

If you keep reading every post as if it’s directed at you it will send you mad mate.
Besides it’s those Mexicans that should be hot under the collars right now, us Queenslanders are living in the goldy locks zone at the moment.
A little bit of rain would be nice, but I’ve been working in my shed all day and just a little desk fan has been more then enough to keep me cool.

Have a nice day.

[JusyApples]

I gave up debating Pete a long time ago. More left then Shane Warnes mystery ball.

Build more coal power stations, the rest of the world are doing it, they are using our coal to feed it.

Build some nuclear ones as well and take advantage of our uranium deposits.

South Australians are paying the highest energy prices in the world.

Renewables they said it will be great they said.



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[Bird]

Build more coal power stations, the rest of the world are doing it, they are using our coal to feed it.

its too obvious for some. and other countries thank us for our coal with open arms... while we have blackouts.

[Bigfish]

its too obvious for some. and other countries thank us for our coal with open arms... while we have blackouts.

It wouldn,t matter if we had treble the number of power stations Bird.  The pollies would still have the whole power supply system ****ed anyway.  As we are the worlds quarry..it only matters that our precious ground products are ripped out and sold off as quick as we can.  The future generations dont count for anything.  No point planning for the future when we can live like kings now! 

[tryagain]

I gave up debating Pete a long time ago. More left then Shane Warnes mystery ball.

Nothing wrong with engaging people with different opinions to your own, is far more interesting than living in an echo chamber and gives you the opportunity to either learn something, or refine your argument.

And yes Pete is a seems a little left, but if you think he is far left, I think you are mistaken.

[tryagain]

Now engaging with Pete's comment.

Load shedding has started in VIC.

Reason?
3 existing thermal power generators failed last night and this morning.
Then the weather got hotter and stayed hotter then expected and the existing thermal power generators could not continue working at full capacity and output was cut but 18,000mW.


Going to have to add another line to that war cry of “reliable, dispatchable power supply”.
And include something about actually working when it’s hot and sunny.

I have no idea what sort of power generation works best when it’s hot and sunny, perhaps one day someone will figure that one out....

The issue with this is the time of day that energy demand peaks, which from what I have seen is in the evening when guess what has packed up its bag for the night

And I noticed you said "failed last night" maybe because they had to do the heavy lifting due to another form having pulled up stumps for the night. 

[gronk]

It wouldn,t matter if we had treble the number of power stations Bird.  The pollies would still have the whole power supply system ****ed anyway.  As we are the worlds quarry..it only matters that our precious ground products are ripped out and sold off as quick as we can.  The future generations dont count for anything.  No point planning for the future when we can live like kings now!

We can certainly plan for the future, but we need to also live NOW.  If we are happy to have blackouts as our normal life, then we continue on as we are now......or if we want stable power ( like we want the comfort of turning on the air con ) then we need more baseload power....NOW.....

[Bigfish]

We can certainly plan for the future, but we need to also live NOW.  If we are happy to have blackouts as our normal life, then we continue on as we are now......or if we want stable power ( like we want the comfort of turning on the air con ) then we need more baseload power....NOW.....

But we knew that 10 years ago...as I said ..the pollies are only interested in their wallets.  I plan ahead for many of my life events. The same as how I run my house. Shit...if a pissant like me can plan for the future why cant the overpaid, greedy blood sucking pricks in Canberra do the same...?

[lloydus67]

The problem is clearly you can’t expect 50+ year old coal fired power stations to work at the capacy they did when new. It’s a 25-30 year investment to build a new power station, to replace the old failing ones. No one is going to put up that kind of investment, when the future for coal fired power stations looks uncertain over the next 10 years


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[Pete79]

Now engaging with Pete's comment.

The issue with this is the time of day that energy demand peaks, which from what I have seen is in the evening when guess what has packed up its bag for the night

And I noticed you said "failed last night" maybe because they had to do the heavy lifting due to another form having pulled up stumps for the night. 

Thanks mate. I like to think your previous comment is pretty much on the mark.


And the specific reason I made my comment was the time of day that it happened.
The way I understood the announcement was that during extreme heat events traditional thermal power generators cannot operate at full capacity.
My tongue in cheek, non personal comment was that solar or thermal solar would be the perfect support system for this current flaw in our power generation network.

[Kangaron]

Build some nuclear ones as well and take advantage of our uranium deposits.

Some sense at last.

[gronk]

The way I understood the announcement was that during extreme heat events traditional thermal power generators cannot operate at full capacity.

I know that it was a tongue in cheek comment, but it's funny how some might actually believe the above comment !!

[gronk]

The problem is clearly you can’t expect 50+ year old coal fired power stations to work at the capacy they did when new.


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Yes they can....if maintained properly. This can change a bit when we sell OUR assets to private enterprise !!

[Pottsy]

Yes they can....if maintained properly. This can change a bit when we sell OUR assets to private enterprise !!

Got to wonder then why Playford at Pt Augusta which was commissioned in 1985 was decommissioned in past few years and demolished. 520mwh lost to the state, yes brown coal but still a substantial asset, had to run back up diesel gens yesterday at huge costs to the state.

[gronk]

Got to wonder then why Playford at Pt Augusta which was commissioned in 1985 was decommissioned in past few years and demolished. 520mwh lost to the state, yes brown coal but still a substantial asset, had to run back up diesel gens yesterday at huge costs to the state.

Yep, gotta wonder why ?

[Pete79]

I know that it was a tongue in cheek comment, but it's funny how some might actually believe the above comment !!

Just 1 of many Gas fired power plant studies;

In particular, the study assesses the effect of ambient temperature in the context of the electricity system in Mexico and proposes supplementary firing in the heat recovery steam generator to mitigate reduction in power output. For ambient temperature varying from ?5 °C to 45 °C, a typical temperature variation in the north of Mexico, the efficiency of the NGCC with CO2 capture reduces from 50.95% to 48.01% when the temperature increased from 15 °C (ISO design condition) to 45 °C, and reduces from 50.95% to 50.78% when the temperature decreased from 15 °C to ?5 °C.

The power generated decreases from 676.3 MW at 15 °C to 530 MW at 45 °C.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360544217307661
That’s a big loss of out put caused by the same temperatures that Victoria and SA have been getting these last few days.

Just 1 of many studies on coal fired power plants;

THE EFFECT OF AMBIENT TEMPERATURE TO POWER PLANT EFFICIENCY
Figure 5 shows the effect of ambient temperature on the energy and exergy efficiencies of the power plant when constant condenser pressure approach is used. Figure 6 shows the same results but when variable condenser pressure approach is taken into account. As shown, the energy efficiency is constant in the case of using constant pressure in the condenser but it decreases with ambient temperature when variable condenser pressure is taken into account. The exergy efficiencies decrease in both cases but the rate of reduction is higher when variable condenser pressure approach is taken into account. Actual data from the power plant agree with variable pressure approach in the condenser.

http://psrcentre.org/images/extraimages/3.%20412700.pdf
Coal power plants are not as bad as gas, but still clearly effected by ambient temperatures.



And Tryagain was absolutely right. I never would have expected to be reading pages and pages of scientific studies on power plants. But I had heard the comment many times in the past that thermal power stations don’t like hot weather and I finally did some investigating tonight.

So thanks for disagreeing with my point. I’ve learned some stuff tonight.....

[GeoffA]

All good stuff Pete, but solar panel efficiency also drops as temps rise.

 

[Bigfish]

All good stuff Pete, but solar panel efficiency also drops as temps rise.

 

As does nearly everything else on earth...including us nupnup human beans..

[GeoffA]

As does nearly everything else on earth...including us nupnup human beans..

Yep.

Wind turbines usually don't spin on hot days 'cos there's either too much wind, or not enough.....

 

[gronk]

So thanks for disagreeing with my point. I’ve learned some stuff tonight.....

You have.....but my "general" comment was just that.
In high temps, going by that essay on reduced efficiency , all they do is increase the output of the power station, as they generally never run at full steam.......unless you can find another essay that says otherwise.....