Power and gas is to expensive.

[Bigfish]

SOME MORE FACTS FOR THE DINOSAURS TO DISPUTE...

A landmark study has shown that renewable energy has reduced electricity prices by far more than the subsidies paid for it.
Key points:

    The study's lead author said the research proved renewables were the key to lower power prices
    Researchers found South Australians were paying, on average, the highest electricity prices in the world
    Gas-fired power is pushing prices higher, while wind and solar are placing downward pressure on prices, the study found

The independent study, by the Victoria Energy Policy Centre, focused on the South Australian electricity market and confirmed households in the state have on average the highest electricity prices in the world.

FULL ARTICLE.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-07/study-shows-impact-wind-solar-gas-power-on-electricity-prices/10590876


OPINION ARTICLE.  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-07/climate-change-denialism-holocaust-david-attenborough-coal/10585744

  ""It would be fascinating to eavesdrop on discussions between members of the Flat Earth Society sailing the open sea, and debating why the horizon is curved. They would provide a good laugh.

They are deluded, but most committed flat earth believers appear normal in the rest of their lives and their delusion is not generally harmful to others.

A delusion is a belief that is clearly false, a denial of facts. It indicates an abnormality in the affected person's content of thought.

The false belief is not accounted for by the person's cultural or religious background or their level of intelligence.

The belief of climate change deniers is usually unshakable, like that of the flat-earth believers or Holocaust deniers. Many delude themselves that there is a conspiracy.

US President Donald Trump uses the words "hoax" and "Chinese hoax". Often their fervour leads to influential positions, for example in environment and energy policy as in the Coalition.  ""

[Bird]

There are as many research articles "for" as there are "against" out there.

Just depends who is pushing the barrow.

Just remember if they dont put out *something* they lose their grants.

YMMV

[alnjan]

I know it is only a small part but there is a very big difference between changing a cows feed to the planned mass culling of of all livestock that alarmists with the scientific and political fields.  Maybe the alarmist and the livestock need to change fields occasionally.   

[gronk]

Everyone knows that the biggest contributor for CO2 is volcanoes. But one we can't do anything about.

But I haven't seen any reports on whether there is more activity in the last 10 to 30 yrs compared to previous times ??

Everyone also knows that what we do in almost every aspect of life isn't good for the worlds health, but until the rest of the world starts doing something about it, we as a minnow of the big picture are wasting our time talking about reducing OUR carbon footprint !!

[Pottsy]

There have been some very eloquent arguments put both for and against on this thread but I think the two points of view will never meet. Am I card carrying greenie, definitely not, but we do recycle our household waste as per our local councils bin system. Do we drink bottled water, no, rainwater in refillable bottles, are we careful with water and power (solar installed) usage, yes, more motivated by cost than some over arching need to save the planet.
Is this all undone by the fact I drive a diesel, wear clothes and footwear made from synthetics and I eat meat from cattle which burp and fart?
Am I believer in climate change, probably not, I remember the hole in the ozone layer controversy, Y2K etc, but everyone is entitled to their opinions and I would assume they practice the beliefs of those opinions. Sometimes the biggest negative can be zealots who try to force their enthusiasm for a cause on others, protesters who resort to violence, Greenpeace and the damage inflicted on infrastructure or equipment, Greenies and the spiking of trees etc.
One of the hardest things in this world of immediacy, media manipulation and fake news is who to believe. Their are brighter minds than mine who will continue to debate, work on a solution or debunk someone else's science regardless of the topic wether it be global warming, bacon causing cancer, aspirin preventing heart attacks etcetera, etcetera.
For me I am going to enjoy what years I have left with my wife and family in what some will say is a selfish attitude to my own existence.

[Jeepers Creepers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfJhPbFW6qk

By all means, watch the whole thing, but save the planet is about 6.30 minutes in...... 

[tryagain]

SOME MORE FACTS FOR THE DINOSAURS TO DISPUTE...

A landmark study has shown that renewable energy has reduced electricity prices by far more than the subsidies paid for it.
Key points:

    The study's lead author said the research proved renewables were the key to lower power prices
    Researchers found South Australians were paying, on average, the highest electricity prices in the world
    Gas-fired power is pushing prices higher, while wind and solar are placing downward pressure on prices, the study found

I don't think that this says what you want it too, yes renewables are now cheaper..... when they are working, but unless you are happy to only use power when the sun shining or the wind is blowing, you then need a backup, either gas or batteries seem to be the most popular at the moment, and when you combine the two, you end up with more expensive power, it no coincidence that SA has the highest rate of renewables and the highest electricity prices of the mainland states.

[JusyApples]

I don't think that this says what you want it too, yes renewables are now cheaper..... when they are working, but unless you are happy to only use power when the sun shining or the wind is blowing, you then need a backup, either gas or batteries seem to be the most popular at the moment, and when you combine the two, you end up with more expensive power, it no coincidence that SA has the highest rate of renewables and the highest electricity prices of the mainland states.

And probably the most blackouts


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tryagain]

I have mentioned this a few times in the past so is interesting to see an article on it, I don't have so much of an issue with the subsidies from general revenue but with the ones coming from higher power prices. https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/blogs/tim-blair/poor-subsidising-the-solarloving-rich/news-story/3884c995eb7344f5f007c2b160866878

[tryagain]

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/10729020

My heart bleeds for them

[Pete79]

I have mentioned this a few times in the past so is interesting to see an article on it, I don't have so much of an issue with the subsidies from general revenue but with the ones coming from higher power prices. https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/blogs/tim-blair/poor-subsidising-the-solarloving-rich/news-story/3884c995eb7344f5f007c2b160866878

Hahahahahahahahahaha.....
A 'news artical' written by Tim Blair?? Really???
The extreme right, greens hating, muslim bashing, Murdoch mouth peace Tim Blair?
That guy can write a balanced artical about solar power, wow.. Who knew... 

I do like the comment under that photo though.
Nothing says 'quality journalism' like saying someone could mount solar panels on their forehead... 

...


Now at the complete oppersite end of the Tim Blair spectrum is a fantastic Australian Dr Katerina Kimmorley.

Dr Kimmorley created an Australian company that is currently the largest supplier of solar lighting and power to the poorest people in the world.
Her company Pollinate Energy has brought power to over 550,000 people in India and Napal over the last few years.

Katerina was in India during the largest ever human distaster, when the lights went out on 700,000,000 (Yes that is Seven Hundred Million) people.
That's 30 times the whole Australian population without power.

She saw that there is currently 500,000,000 people living in the slums over there that rely on kerosene for thier lighting and living with no other power, so she did something about it.
No she didn't build a coal fired powerplant, as much as that would have made mr Blair happy.
She established a new company to give these people a solar power supply that gives them lighting for their house and allows them to charge a phone and run a small TV.
They are supplying these solar units for the cost of 10 weeks worth of kerosene.
So now, for the cost of 10 weeks worth of kerosene light they can have solar lighting and power of the next 20 years.

It makes me so happy to know there awesome Australians actually standing up and using new technology to bring power to the poorest people in the world. 

So if you'll excuse me I'll just continue ignoring the Tim Blairs, Alan Jones' and Rupert Murdocks of the world and focus on those great people actually doing exciting things to help their fellow man.

[paceman]

Hahahahahahahahahaha.....
A 'news artical' written by Tim Blair?? Really???
The extreme right, greens hating, muslim bashing, Murdoch mouth peace Tim Blair?
That guy can write a balanced artical about solar power, wow.. Who knew... 

to be fair, there are plenty of extreme mouth pieces on the other side as well... 

They are supplying these solar units for the cost of 10 weeks worth of kerosene.
So now, for the cost of 10 weeks worth of kerosene light they can have solar lighting and power of the next 20 years.

it's ambitious to think that these solar setups will last 20 years and keep giving the same output.

the sentiment is there, but until we get some actual, real-life data on how long solar actually lasts and what damage it can do in regards to recycling components, energy use to create, etc... it is impossible to quantify the timeframe of useful output and associated costs.

It makes me so happy to know there awesome Australians actually standing up and using new technology to bring power to the poorest people in the world. 

So if you'll excuse me I'll just continue ignoring the Tim Blairs, Alan Jones' and Rupert Murdocks of the world and focus on those great people actually doing exciting things to help their fellow man.

isn't that the high-level intention of the Adani project, to highlight one example?  to bring energy to millions over in India?

the initiatives you have spoken about for individual families certainly have value, but what about industry, hospitals, etc?  the coal mined by Adani might very well bring millions out of poverty and provide a real future, a future that we have already had the benefits of?

who are we to say 'you can't have it', when we have had it already?

contrary to popular belief, there is no black or white solution to energy creation and distribution that will make all sides of the discussion happy.

and until ALL sides get that through their heads , progress will be stagnated.

[Bird]

to be fair, there are plenty of extreme mouth pieces on the other side as well...

Just depends who is paying the bill.

[paceman]

Just depends who is paying the bill.

in some cases, including when it comes to the actual science, which is a shame...

but other times, it's just passion (rightly or wrongly placed).  nobody in their right mind wants the earth to go belly up, but some seem to ignore the fact that some policies will hurt living people on that earth right now, and choose to ignore that fact....

there is a middle ground.  plenty of people, groups, governments have yet to find it.

[Pete79]

to be fair, there are plenty of extreme mouth pieces on the other side as well... 

Possibly, but it just so happens that not one is currently on the payrol of any Murdoch owned entity....

isn't that the high-level intention of the Adani project, to highlight one example?  to bring energy to millions over in India?

No, it's not.

Initially, Adani had planned to run its own vertically integrated “pit-to-plug” operation, taking coal from the Galilee basin, transporting it to Adani-owned power stations in India, and increasing profits by cutting out middlemen. Up to 16m tonnes a year from the proposed Queensland mine was earmarked for the Mundra power plant in Gujarat.
But Mundra has since fallen into serious financial difficulty, making the “pit-to-plug” vision largely untenable. Adani’s subsidiary Adani Power has a net debt of about US$7bn. Last year it offered to sell majority control in the Mundra power station to a government entity for one rupee.

So now then plan is to sell the power generated from the imported Australian coal to Bangladesh.

Despite Godda’s proximity to India’s coal heartland, Adani would have to import coal to the new plant. The company’s Australian arm has already begun to hint that this will come from Carmichael. At an event in Brisbane last month the chief executive of Adani Australia, Jeyakumar Janakaraj, was reported by News Corp as saying Galilee coal had been “booked”.
Buckley estimates the 700km – and 8km/h – train journey to Godda from the coast would add US$16 a tonne to the cost of coal to fuel the new plant, relative to a coastal power plant.

He says the deal is clearly not in the interests of Bangladesh, which would bear the costs of imported coal and unnecessary transport. Buckley said the country could import power more cheaply by seeking fuel-agnostic competitive tenders from the Indian market.
“The logistics of the proposal can only work because the power purchase agreement allows Adani Power to pass the full cost of importing the coal on to Bangladesh.”
“Godda would lock Bangladesh into expensive electricity with high emissions at a time when cleaner, cheaper alternative sources of energy are rapidly being deployed across India,” Buckley said.
The deal with Adani has prompted protests in Dhaka on environmental grounds that have had to be broken up by police.

the initiatives you have spoken about for individual families certainly have value, but what about industry, hospitals, etc?  the coal mined by Adani might very well bring millions out of poverty and provide a real future, a future that we have already had the benefits of?

who are we to say 'you can't have it', when we have had it already?

contrary to popular belief, there is no black or white solution to energy creation and distribution that will make all sides of the discussion happy.

and until ALL sides get that through their heads , progress will be stagnated.

India has no plans to roll out mains power to these slums, one would be very foolish to believe otherwise.
There is no water, no sewage, no services in these areas at all.
Adani will not be the savior of mankind and start installing new power supplies for these people. Adani will do what it needs to continue to make profits, full stop.

If not for people like Dr Kimmorley, those living in the slums would continue gassing them selves to death with their kerosene lighing for a very, very long time.
Yes, perhaps her forecast life span of these systems is a little ambitious, but it took one Australian with a vision to actually do something to extend the life spans of hundreds of thousands of people.

[tryagain]

Hahahahahahahahahaha.....
A 'news artical' written by Tim Blair?? Really???
The extreme right, greens hating, muslim bashing, Murdoch mouth peace Tim Blair?
That guy can write a balanced artical about solar power, wow.. Who knew... 

I do like the comment under that photo though.
Nothing says 'quality journalism' like saying someone could mount solar panels on their forehead... 

...


Now at the complete oppersite end of the Tim Blair spectrum is a fantastic Australian Dr Katerina Kimmorley.

Dr Kimmorley created an Australian company that is currently the largest supplier of solar lighting and power to the poorest people in the world.
Her company Pollinate Energy has brought power to over 550,000 people in India and Napal over the last few years.

Katerina was in India during the largest ever human distaster, when the lights went out on 700,000,000 (Yes that is Seven Hundred Million) people.
That's 30 times the whole Australian population without power.

She saw that there is currently 500,000,000 people living in the slums over there that rely on kerosene for thier lighting and living with no other power, so she did something about it.
No she didn't build a coal fired powerplant, as much as that would have made mr Blair happy.
She established a new company to give these people a solar power supply that gives them lighting for their house and allows them to charge a phone and run a small TV.
They are supplying these solar units for the cost of 10 weeks worth of kerosene.
So now, for the cost of 10 weeks worth of kerosene light they can have solar lighting and power of the next 20 years.

It makes me so happy to know there awesome Australians actually standing up and using new technology to bring power to the poorest people in the world. 

So if you'll excuse me I'll just continue ignoring the Tim Blairs, Alan Jones' and Rupert Murdocks of the world and focus on those great people actually doing exciting things to help their fellow man.

Textbook case of argumentum ad hominem and a red herring.

Edit, to give more context the article was about solar panels and their subsidies in Australia.

[paceman]

Possibly, but it just so happens that not one is currently on the payrol of any Murdoch owned entity....
No, it's not.
So now then plan is to sell the power generated from the imported Australian coal to Bangladesh.India has no plans to roll out mains power to these slums, one would be very foolish to believe otherwise.
There is no water, no sewage, no services in these areas at all.
Adani will not be the savior of mankind and start installing new power supplies for these people. Adani will do what it needs to continue to make profits, full stop.

If not for people like Dr Kimmorley, those living in the slums would continue gassing them selves to death with their kerosene lighing for a very, very long time.
Yes, perhaps her forecast life span of these systems is a little ambitious, but it took one Australian with a vision to actually do something to extend the life spans of hundreds of thousands of people.

possibly?  righto...  they are all angels on the other side...

regardless of who owns the power, where is all the energy going to go?  is that energy no good to the millions you speak of?  because it comes from coal, it must not be used or taken advantage of? 

you can't provide water, sewage, services to millions without mass energy of some kind.

like i said, there is a middle ground to these issues, but some refuse to believe/acknowledge it.

but hey, i guess if you are a skeptic (like me), we must just want the earth to self-destruct, so my kids have nothing. 

makes sense.

[Bigfish]

to be fair, there are plenty of extreme mouth pieces on the other side as well... 

it's ambitious to think that these solar setups will last 20 years and keep giving the same output.

the sentiment is there, but until we get some actual, real-life data on how long solar actually lasts and what damage it can do in regards to recycling components, energy use to create, etc... it is impossible to quantify the timeframe of useful output and associated costs.

isn't that the high-level intention of the Adani project, to highlight one example?  to bring energy to millions over in India?.  No! To make hundreds of millions for the Irish/Cayman Island registered company...funny how their tax laws prevent anyone from knowing how much is earnt.

the initiatives you have spoken about for individual families certainly have value, but what about industry, hospitals, etc?  the coal mined by Adani might very well bring millions out of poverty and provide a real future, a future that we have already had the benefits of?
.  India has already said it wants to turn away from coal.  The pollution is already killing millions around the world.
who are we to say 'you can't have it', when we have had it already?

contrary to popular belief, there is no black or white solution to energy creation and distribution that will make all sides of the discussion happy.

and until ALL sides get that through their heads , progress will be stagnated.  Unfortunately, although it may upset the dinosaurs and troglodytes who cant see renewables as a viable alternative,...solar, wind tidal and hydro power will definitely play a majority part of our future energy needs. 

.

As for Adani...what a bloody joke.  Its a proven fact that if it goes ahead most of the Hunter Valley in NSW will be shut down.  Adani must be back handing someone plenty of dollars to secure the deal of a lifetime...Free, unlimited, unregulated water for the life of the plant...while every food producing farmer pays through the nose.  The same as every house, business and town in Qld...what a f,en joke.

[paceman]

.

As for Adani...what a bloody joke.  Its a proven fact that if it goes ahead most of the Hunter Valley in NSW will be shut down.  Adani must be back handing someone plenty of dollars to secure the deal of a lifetime...Free, unlimited, unregulated water for the life of the plant...while every food producing farmer pays through the nose.  The same as every house, business and town in Qld...what a f,en joke.

proven how?  would like to see the sources on that particular claim...

plenty of houses, businesses and towns in QLD are counting on projects like this one for survival...

but i guess that doesn't matter...

easy to criticise when your livelihood isn't counting on projects like this one.

totally agree that some aspects of the adani project (like the water issue you have highlighted) are not as they should be, but it's a bit rich that some seem to completely disregard the opinions and comments from those that will actually benefit from projects like this.

[Bigfish]

proven how?  would like to see the sources on that particular claim...

plenty of houses, businesses and towns in QLD are counting on projects like this one for survival...

but i guess that doesn't matter...

easy to criticise when your livelihood isn't counting on projects like this one. Criticise a project that is shrouded in secrecy, is trying to get Australian taxpayers dollars to get it going, has openly lied about its environmental studies, will pay stuff all tax thanks to its Irish and Cayman Islands business set ups. If it was a viable, self supporting business that supported local business,s, land owners and paid its fair tax share then good.  But it is so far removed from these ideals. Who is going to benefit?  About 1000 workers..even then that will dwindle with automation taking jobs.  They will also completely annihilate perfectly good farming land. They will cause swamps and streams to disappear.  All this for a product that is trying to be phased out globally.

totally agree that some aspects of the adani project (like the water issue you have highlighted) are not as they should be, but it's a bit rich that some seem to completely disregard the opinions and comments from those that will actually benefit from projects like this.

I do a fair bit of reading with regards to rip-off organisations and the sensational statements they make in trying to secure Oz public support or confidence.  Adani is just a huge organisation that couldn't give fu&$ about Australia or anyone else. They are as good at bullShitting as trump himself.

Heres just one of many article (Canberra Times) about the effects.  Perhaps you need to google adani a bit more Paceman...there is so much negativity out there that its beyond the joke. Just the huge unregulated waste of our valuable water resource should be enough to haly this proposed project...why should everyone in Qld pay many hundreds of dollars for water every year when this cowboy bunch can get unlimited amounts for nothing?

'Threat to jobs'
Australia has a pipeline of approved coal mines that stretches into the 2040s. If we stopped approving new coal mines, the effect on employment would be 0.04 per cent. That's because despite exporting lots of coal, coal mining employs few people – 99 per cent of Australians don't work in coal mining – and new mines threaten these existing jobs.

There have many claims – mostly dodgy – about the jobs the mine will create. It's 10,000 out of court, though under oath Adani admitted it is only 1464. But the government has been conspicuously silent on the jobs Adani's mine threatens.

First, there's the obvious threat to the 70,000 jobs that depend on the Great Barrier Reef. The beauty of the reef is so exquisite it has moved people to tears. But now it's the scientists weeping as they survey the death and decay of one of the natural wonders of the world.

Severe and consecutive bleaching events over the past two years, caused by global-warming heated ocean waters, has seen 93 per cent of the reefs experience bleaching. Building a mega coal mine next door to the reef is the opposite of protecting the many small businesses and tourism and fishing operators whose jobs rely on protecting this natural wonder.

Second, the Adani mine is a direct threat to existing coal jobs in NSW and elsewhere in Queensland. Australia is the Saudi Arabia of coal. We have a larger share of the seaborne coal market than Saudi Arabia has of the world oil market. In Paris, the world promised to use less coal. So what would adding the world's biggest export coal mine do to a market with flat or declining demand?

"Bringing on additional tonnes with the aid of taxpayer money would materially increase the risk to existing coal operations," said Peter Freyberg, of commodity trading giant Glencore. In other words, Adani threatens existing coal jobs in NSW's Hunter Valley and Illawarra, and elsewhere in Queensland.


Honestly Paceman....do yourself a favour and check out the chequered past of this Adani outfit and just see the bullShit the greedy bastards spread.

[paceman]

Honestly Paceman....do yourself a favour and check out the chequered past of this Adani outfit and just see the bullShit the greedy bastards spread.

I’ve done my fair share of reading... but thanks for the tip.

I don’t just take what I read in the papers and hear from politicians as gospel.  I try to get information from all sides and try to take all views and real life data and information into account, not just the rhetoric...

There’s enough evidence on both sides, regarding Adani in particular and the reasoning behind the renewables push, to have an informed opinion that might be in contrast to the loud majority.

It’s our prerogative to each have our own opinion on these matters.

What is funny is that if you are someone who dares speak against the loud majority, you are immediately labelled a denier or someone who isn’t capable of rational thought.

I’m neither of those things, just like I don’t believe that you are incapable of rational thought, either.

Enjoy the rest of your day. 



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[gronk]

One small point.....some of the Hunter Valley coal is coking coal....good quality and used for making steel, not feeding power stations.

No matter what anyone believes in, we are NOT ready yet for coal fired power stations to be done away with. Anyone good with sums ?? Work out how we can supply 600Mw of power one hot evening at 9pm with solar or wind ?? Solve that without a coal fired power station and you will be one rich person..

There are rumblings of a new coal fired station needed in NSW, especially in light of Hazelwood and soon Liddell closing. Even Nuclear !!

I said it 5 yrs ago, I believe a new incarnation of safe Nuclear will be the savior of the planet, not solar or wind, but they will just be a stop gap for a few years.

[Bigfish]

One small point.....some of the Hunter Valley coal is coking coal....good quality and used for making steel, not feeding power stations.

No matter what anyone believes in, we are NOT ready yet for coal fired power stations to be done away with. Anyone good with sums ?? Work out how we can supply 600Mw of power one hot evening at 9pm with solar or wind ?? Solve that without a coal fired power station and you will be one rich person..

There are rumblings of a new coal fired station needed in NSW, especially in light of Hazelwood and soon Liddell closing. Even Nuclear !!

I said it 5 yrs ago, I believe a new incarnation of safe Nuclear will be the savior of the planet, not solar or wind, but they will just be a stop gap for a few years.

I also would like to see  some sort of nuclear power.  Renewables will be a major player in the future but I also believe we need some sort of system that can provide quick, safe and cheap power in a short period of time.  Battery technology will also go ahead in leaps and bounds. Already the writing is on the wall for lithium. Solid state batteries will be common within 5-7 years and different, cheap battery banks for houses will also be available at nowwhere near the cost of lithium.

Like you Paceman..I am a sceptic....but only when I havent found out enough information to make a decision as to what I believe.  .  I put Adani in the same basket as trump and that other wonderful human bean..Palmer...rubbish basket that is..

Cheers.

[Pottsy]

Definitely need more coal and to do something quickly about alternatives ( nuclear ) because the AustralianEnergy Market numbers tell the tale.
As at 24/1 5.25pm we are generating approx 32,000 megawatts of power with only 1887 megawatts of wind and solar alternatives.

[Bigfish]

Definitely need more coal and to do something quickly about alternatives ( nuclear ) because the AustralianEnergy Market numbers tell the tale.
As at 24/1 5.25pm we are generating approx 32,000 megawatts of power with only 1887 megawatts of wind and solar alternatives.

No worries...we have hbig reserves of diesel.....oops...well at enough for 30 days!  The govt has absolutely no idea about Australias power needs or its future direction.  No wonder we are the quarry of the world..