Power and gas is to expensive.

[gronk]

Clean coal???  WTF!!   .  Clean coal...what a friggin joke

I used to work in a coal mine.  After coming out of the mine it went thru a washery.......comes out sparkling clean !!   

[paceman]

Clean coal???  WTF!!   .  Clean coal...what a friggin joke

and yet the resources used/mined/transported and pollution created when electric cars/solar/wind are manufactured and then not being able to be recycled, so we have mountains of old panels and batteries laying around... are all so clean?

NO form of energy creation is done without pollution.  take off the blinkers and it's easy to see that the so called 'clean & green' options for energy creation are anything but...

[Bigfish]

Clean coal was a catchcry invented by the coal companies in an effort to give the public the perception that coal could be clean energy. Absolute bullShit.  For coal to be used it has to be burnt...therein lies the problem.  Renewables also have a legacy.  Same as when your missus does the shopping...look at all the packaging even from organic foods.  Everything we do has a downside. .  I am in agreeance with Sir David Attenborough...we are blindly heading to a point of no return where we will cease to exist because of our own doing.  Greed and denial are the culprits.  Self interest groups, corporations, governments, and the "I,m alright Jack..F you" people are the ones whose idea of living is to be guided by the almighty dollar.    I,m 65 and don't reckon I,ll see 85 but one thing I know...I,m glad I wont be here in 100 years...it will be a complete Shithole thanks to mans stupidity. Wonder what your grand kids will reckon about how we are behaving now?

[JusyApples]

Clean coal was a catchcry invented by the coal companies in an effort to give the public the perception that coal could be clean energy. Absolute bullShit.  For coal to be used it has to be burnt...therein lies the problem.  Renewables also have a legacy.  Same as when your missus does the shopping...look at all the packaging even from organic foods.  Everything we do has a downside. .  I am in agreeance with Sir David Attenborough...we are blindly heading to a point of no return where we will cease to exist because of our own doing.  Greed and denial are the culprits.  Self interest groups, corporations, governments, and the "I,m alright Jack..F you" people are the ones whose idea of living is to be guided by the almighty dollar.    I,m 65 and don't reckon I,ll see 85 but one thing I know...I,m glad I wont be here in 100 years...it will be a complete Shithole thanks to mans stupidity. Wonder what your grand kids will reckon about how we are behaving now?

Climate change was created for people to make money out of renewables. What’s your point.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[paceman]

Clean coal was a catchcry invented by the coal companies in an effort to give the public the perception that coal could be clean energy. Absolute bullShit.  For coal to be used it has to be burnt...therein lies the problem.  Renewables also have a legacy.  Same as when your missus does the shopping...look at all the packaging even from organic foods.  Everything we do has a downside. .  I am in agreeance with Sir David Attenborough...we are blindly heading to a point of no return where we will cease to exist because of our own doing.  Greed and denial are the culprits.  Self interest groups, corporations, governments, and the "I,m alright Jack..F you" people are the ones whose idea of living is to be guided by the almighty dollar.    I,m 65 and don't reckon I,ll see 85 but one thing I know...I,m glad I wont be here in 100 years...it will be a complete Shithole thanks to mans stupidity. Wonder what your grand kids will reckon about how we are behaving now?

as previously stated in this thread, i am not against renewables, as long as they can provide the cheap, reliable and plentiful power that fossil fuels currently can.

humanity thrives when energy is these three things.  it's a fact.

renewables cannot do that currently, and yet the push is on to completely dismiss fossil fuels straight away. 

hopefully my grandkids will have enough money to pay for energy, because at this rate, energy will be for those who have plenty of money.  it's happening right now.

what do you think is one of the biggest causes of higher power prices?

i also hope my grandkids are smart enough to use their brains and common sense and get the best outcome, regardless of zealots ramming things down their throats, at the expense of humanity.

[Bigfish]

Climate change was created for people to make money out of renewables. What’s your point.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I reckon you,d be Fred Flinstones best mate. This ideology also validates my belief in the stupidity/ignorance of some people.

[paceman]

This ideology also validates my belief in the stupidity/ignorance of some people.

the use of the word 'ideology' is interesting...

considering that the overwhelming reason to go with renewables ASAP is to cut down on CO2 emissions, don't you think it's weird that there is not one scientific paper (using the proper scientific method) or study that conclusively links high CO2 levels in the upper atmosphere with rising temperatures?

models and theories, not withstanding.

correlation does not equal causation.

[Bigfish]

Prefered view of the world from the denialists..
...

[Pottsy]

Maybe Cleaner Coal?

[paceman]

Prefered view of the world from the denialists..
...

i'm a skeptic... huge difference.

but i appreciate the derogatory nature of your replies... it confirms why these debates are a waste of time.

i've said my piece in this thread.  enjoy your day.

[Bigfish]

i'm a skeptic... huge difference.

but i appreciate the derogatory nature of your replies... it confirms why these debates are a waste of time.

i've said my piece in this thread.  enjoy your day.

hahaha...I,m a skeptic too but am a believer in climate change...I,ve done my homework. Opinions are like arseholes...everyone has one...
Cheers

[JusyApples]

I reckon you,d be Fred Flinstones best mate. This ideology also validates my belief in the stupidity/ignorance of some people.

Just like most people of the left. If someone disagrees with their opinion they start the personal attacks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pete79]

Just like most people of the left. If someone disagrees with their opinion they start the personal attacks.

Cough, cough.... Pot-Kettle-Black.......

if you do, then you are delusional.

regardless of zealots ramming things down their throats, at the expense of humanity.

We could go on...

[Pottsy]

Yep, starting to sound like politics, if you can't win the debate with facts go with personal attacks, be a better spectacle with duelling pistols at 10 paces.

[Paddler Ed]

If we aren't certain of what impact we are having, but know that the amount of CO2 is increasing, and therefore we are heading into unknown territory, perhaps the best bet is to cut back on the amount of CO2 we are producing?

It's a simple idea called the Precautionary Principle  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle)

If we are clever we can also reduce our costs as we reduce the amount of CO2 we produce - even down to changing lightbulbs at home makes a difference. However, there is a balancing act in terms of the outputs from what we shift to - hence the clampdown on diesels in Europe where the focus was on CO2 for a long time, resulting in a shift towards more economical cars (diesel) but the rise in particulates was the next problem...

[alnjan]

'They' say CO2 is the problem and further 'they' it is man made CO2 is the problem.  Then just how the heck to do they justify cows and other livestock belching and farting has to be dramatically culled or 'taxed'.  I might just be a little bit sceptical on that one.

[Paddler Ed]

'They' say CO2 is the problem and further 'they' it is man made CO2 is the problem.  Then just how the heck to do they justify cows and other livestock belching and farting has to be dramatically culled or 'taxed'.  I might just be a little bit sceptical on that one.

There is research going on with cattle burps (as that's where the methane escapes from, not farts) in feedlots, and also within that the effect that different feeds have on those burps (ie grass vs corn/manufactured feed etc). One of the things is that it's easier to measure the methane output as the ruminant burps in a feedlot as it can be done when the head is in the feeder.

It is one of the arguments for reducing red meat consumption (which has a tendency to go up as incomes increase), especially as the world's population gets more affluent.

[alnjan]

There is research going on with cattle burps (as that's where the methane escapes from, not farts) in feedlots, and also within that the effect that different feeds have on those burps (ie grass vs corn/manufactured feed etc). One of the things is that it's easier to measure the methane output as the ruminant burps in a feedlot as it can be done when the head is in the feeder.

It is one of the arguments for reducing red meat consumption (which has a tendency to go up as incomes increase), especially as the world's population gets more affluent.

It just sounds like Vegan BS which ever way it is described. 

[Paddler Ed]

It just sounds like Vegan BS which ever way it is described.

I suspect that's the view of someone who does not see the potential impacts of changes that might happen in 25 years time as having any impact on them because they are likely to be dead... Sorry, but I think the tide is turning against those who are not taking the view that things are changing in the environment at a pace and scale we are not familiar with, and that whilst activity as normal isn't a problem for the near future (ie 10-15 years), the potential for a planet with 9bn people on it in the next 30 years does mean that there will need to be some changes in what we produce as food, and our choices around food.

It's the same as the Brexit debacle in the UK, the number of over 65s who voted leave was much higher than those under 25.... but in the 15 years that the full ramifications are expected to shake out most of those over 65s will be dead (average live expectancy of about 80 years old).... whilst those who are 25 will be suffering the ramifications for the next 55 years at least (life expectancy of 80 again - although, for those born in 2016 IIRC it's 82)

[alnjan]

I suspect that's the view of someone who does not see the potential impacts of changes that might happen in 25 years time as having any impact on them because they are likely to be dead... Sorry, but I think the tide is turning against those who are not taking the view that things are changing in the environment at a pace and scale we are not familiar with, and that whilst activity as normal isn't a problem for the near future (ie 10-15 years), the potential for a planet with 9bn people on it in the next 30 years does mean that there will need to be some changes in what we produce as food, and our choices around food.

It's the same as the Brexit debacle in the UK, the number of over 65s who voted leave was much higher than those under 25.... but in the 15 years that the full ramifications are expected to shake out most of those over 65s will be dead (average live expectancy of about 80 years old).... whilst those who are 25 will be suffering the ramifications for the next 55 years at least (life expectancy of 80 again - although, for those born in 2016 IIRC it's 82)

Or someone that has heard over the year all the different potential impacts of changes that might happen over the past 25 years + time and has not seen any impact on them because they are not dead or floating. 

[DeBe]

Something that seems to be missing in the CO2 argument , is that trees & plants need CO2 to survive & produce oxygen that we need!!! People have found a way to make money out of nothing.

[GeoffA]

Throughout history there has never been a shortage of prophets of doom.

[Pete79]

I suspect that's the view of someone who does not see the potential impacts of changes that might happen in 25 years time as having any impact on them because they are likely to be dead...

Either that or Allan told them this morning that it’s all a bunch of lies made up by the loony left...

Sorry, but I think the tide is turning against those who are not taking the view that things are changing in the environment at a pace and scale we are not familiar with, and that whilst activity as normal isn't a problem for the near future (ie 10-15 years), the potential for a planet with 9bn people on it in the next 30 years does mean that there will need to be some changes in what we produce as food, and our choices around food.

You’ve absolutely nailed it there.
Personally those that choose to shout at each other from the far left and far right of this conversation don’t really bother me.
It’s the short sighted ones that are the problem.

One of the lines I always hear is how the earth has been heating and cooling forever, or how one volcano can change everything.

I was reading an article earlier about the Greenland glaciers. It was written by those lying scientists and not verified by Mr Jones or Mr Abbott, but still an interesting read nonetheless.

What Greenland's 'unprecedented' ice loss means for Earth.
The ice sheet is melting faster than in the last 350 years.

For a few days in July of 2012, it was so hot in the Arctic that nearly the entire surface of the Greenland ice sheet turned to slush.

It was so uncharacteristically warm that scientists, emerging from their tents high on the peak of the ice sheet, sank up to their knees in the suddenly soft snow. And then, that snow started melting.

Near the edge of the ice sheet, bright blue puddles collected on the flat white surface. Rivulets of melt trickled down, braiding into fat, gushing rivers. The meltwater punched through gullies and spilled down crevasses. One river near the edge of the ice sheet was so swollen that it swept away a bridge that had been there for decades.

.....

“The melting of the Greenland ice sheet is greater than at any point in the last three to four centuries, and probably much longer than that,” says Luke Trusel, a researcher at Rowan University in New Jersey and lead author of the new study, published today in Nature.

.....

Scientists already knew that Greenland was melting fast; they could track its shrinking size from satellites. But the key satellite data only goes back until the early 1990s—so they couldn’t tell exactly how alarmed to be by the melting. Had this kind of jaw-dropping warming happened before? How unusual was it, compared to the time before human-caused climate change kicked into gear? No one knew.

They had to figure out a way to look back in time, so they went to the source: the ice sheet itself. They fanned across the ice surface and drilled a suite of ice cores that recorded signals of how much and how intensely the surface of the ice sheet had melted over the past few hundred years. They compared that with models, which let them calculate how much runoff would result from the kind of surface melting recorded in the ice cores.

And in both, they saw a clear signal. Melting and runoff started creeping upward just when the first stirrings of human-caused climate change hit the Arctic, in the mid-19th century. But the real drama unfolded in the past 20 years; suddenly, melt intensity shot up, up to nearly six-fold higher than it was before the Industrial Revolution.

“It’s really like turning on a switch,” says Beata Csatho, a glaciologist at the University at Buffalo who was not a part of the study.

So there’s just one tiny piece of fact based evidence showing the impact that modern industrialization has had on one tiny piece of this earth.

Some may read it and think it’s pretty clear that for the sake of future generations we should try to clean up our act just a tiny bit.
Others will just think those scientists are only trying to sell some solar panels and batteries....



Full article here

[JusyApples]

Cough, cough.... Pot-Kettle-Black.......

We could go on...

Sorry Pete when did I call old mate stupid?

The fact is the earths climate changes no matter who is here? Did humans cause the ice age? Man made climate change is just a bit of bs so the people who have $$ invested in renewables can make money. Remember when Al Gore travelled the world armed with all his bs modelling and when he was called out he disappeared.
What about old Tim Flannery who claimed all the rain would evaporate because the ground would be too hard and full of cracks. This was meant to have happened by now, where is he? Never heard of again.

If renewables were so good why are they subsidised? What happens when there’s no sun or wind? Where does our energy come from on those days?

Other countries are building a stack of coal fired power stations, we will be left behind all because of a few paid activists who show up to places and make a bit of noise.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pete79]

Sorry Pete when did I call old mate stupid?

I wasn’t referencing you specifically, just pointing out that both sides like to make personal attacks and throw insults around when it suits.

Back on topic.

Do you believe the scientists when they explain what caused the ice age?

Why not believe them when they explain the clear link between modern industrialization and the proven acceleration of the earths heating over the last couple of decades?

Yes there are the Al Gores and Tim Flannery’s on one side, just the same as the other side have all of their dire predictions about economies being completely destroyed and societies crumbling if we dare do anything to try and reduce our polluting ways. Which obviously didn’t happen to any of those countries that have made big changes to their environmental outputs in recent years.

No body (well at least not on here) is saying we need to go back to the Stone Age.
But if we can give cows feed that reduces their burps a little bit or drive cars that put just a little bit less crap out their exhaust or heaven forbid, produce electricity with less toxic emissions, is that not a good thing?

Looking after the planet is not that different to looking after yourself.
Sure you can survive sitting on the couch living on a diet of Maccas and Coke. Your going to have all sorts of health problems, but you’ll survive.
Whereas you can eat fresh unprocessed foods and push yourself though a little bit of pain with exercise everyday and you’ll be much much happier in the long run.

We can keep pumping out crap into the atmosphere and dumping Shit into the oceans, the world will still turn, might be a bit hotter and a few less animals getting around, but the plant will still be here.
Or we can literally clean up our act just a tiny bit, suffer a little bit of financial pain and leave this place in half decent condition for our great grandkids to enjoy.

Unfortunately those of us that care about the long term can’t do enough to offset what is being done by those shortsighted ones that only care about their own personal comfort right now.