Author Topic: Power and gas is to expensive.  (Read 242017 times)

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Offline BC66

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #425 on: September 06, 2018, 11:17:47 PM »
Part of the company I work for is developing a wave generator with the CSIRO that bobs around in the ocean and it’s natural movement generates power. Should be interesting to see how these go.
There are also other experimental energy sources like a kinetic flywheel that is perpetual and once wound up and released continues to spin one direction till the spring is unwound then spins in the opposite direction.
These have basically an endless life generating power and all you have to do is wind it up and let it go
Each fly wheel literally weighs a ton and spins at high rpm so they have to be buried deep Incase of explosion
The future is full of new things and eventually power stations will be a thing of the past.

There is a new housing estate being built out at Gatton and every home will have its own off grid power system.
How cool is that !


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Offline gronk

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #426 on: September 07, 2018, 01:15:59 AM »


There is a new housing estate being built out at Gatton and every home will have its own off grid power system.
How cool is that !


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Certainly would be cool...
So the homes have solar panels, batteries and a backup generator.......just like a lot of remote houses have been doing for 20yrs.
But for people who like to run a pool pump, have ducted aircon etc, there are limitations..
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Offline prodigyrf

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #427 on: September 07, 2018, 03:04:26 AM »
Part of the company I work for is developing a wave generator with the CSIRO that bobs around in the ocean and it’s natural movement generates power. Should be interesting to see how these go.


Another company harvesting our taxes again for no benefit?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-17/oceanlinx-generator-stranded-as-court-proceedings-continue/8529602
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-05-17/huge-swell-sinks-wave-energy-generator/829282
There's no Great Evil conspiracy against consumers within engineering, manufacturing and supply. Just the many tradeoffs incurred to satisfy diverse tastes, priorities and wallets. But first comes all the insatiable Gummint eggsperts, nanny-staters and usual suspects.

Offline Rumpig

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #428 on: September 07, 2018, 05:46:57 AM »
Part of the company I work for is developing a wave generator with the CSIRO that bobs around in the ocean and it’s natural movement generates power. Should be interesting to see how these go.
Sister in-laws father is (or was atleast) an engineer for Queensland water and he had a fair bit to do with the hydro set up in Wivenhoe dam, he told me years ago they were looking at wave generation (at least 5 years ago I reckon), but the biggest issue they faced was they couldn't be to far offshore and nobody wants to see that stuff out front of their waterfront views. He went overseas somewhere checking out various forms of power generation, things like molten salt farms were being considered for example also.
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Offline Bird

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #429 on: September 07, 2018, 08:35:34 AM »
Quote from: BC66
There is a new housing estate being built out at Gatton and every home will have its own off grid power system.
How cool is that !
pretty good forward thinking I reckon! Just as long as they spec it up enough for all toys...

thats one thing thats put me off - too many stories of people being sold setups that are not big enough :(
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Offline Paddler Ed

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #430 on: September 07, 2018, 09:28:42 AM »
pretty good forward thinking I reckon! Just as long as they spec it up enough for all toys...

thats one thing thats put me off - too many stories of people being sold setups that are not big enough :(

That's the other side - how much can we cut consumption at a household level? There's no point in running inefficient old things (says the person who is daily driving a HJ45 Land Cruiser at the moment) that chew through power, nor is there a need for every house to have reverse cycle air con if we design them better... Our little shed house doesn't have air con, whereas our unit in town did... have we missed it? Not really, we get the morning sun in the winter streaming into the house, so that's nice and warm, and even on a cloudy and cool day, the house isn't too cold. Likewise in summer, the windows are generally set for the prevailing wind and therefore it cools it nicely. The best upgrade for our place would probably be double glazing, as that would trap in the internal temperature that bit more (one of the things I miss from the UK... my parent's old house built in the mid 1980's had it, and they've fitted it to the current house which was built in the 1830's and is in a heritage protected area so external modifications have to be approved)

Offline tryagain

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #431 on: September 07, 2018, 09:40:12 AM »
Part of the company I work for is developing a wave generator with the CSIRO that bobs around in the ocean and it’s natural movement generates power. Should be interesting to see how these go.
I remember first seeing information about CETO wave generation about 10 years ago, looked like a fantastic idea, obviously still working through issues though and it is a fairly simple concept so obviously not a simple exercise https://youtu.be/xNYR4ZIyOZc


There are also other experimental energy sources like a kinetic flywheel that is perpetual and once wound up and released continues to spin one direction till the spring is unwound then spins in the opposite direction.
These have basically an endless life generating power and all you have to do is wind it up and let it go
Each fly wheel literally weighs a ton and spins at high rpm so they have to be buried deep Incase of explosion
The future is full of new things and eventually power stations will be a thing of the past.

I wouldn't be holding your breath for anything perpetual, there is a little thing called the laws of thermodynamics that are pretty significant https://youtu.be/A-QgGXbDyR0




Offline Bird

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #432 on: September 07, 2018, 10:12:01 AM »
Quote from: Paddler Ed
That's the other side - how much can we cut consumption at a household level? There's no point in running inefficient old things (says the person who is daily driving a HJ45 Land Cruiser at the moment) that chew through power
Too true, there are ways and means of saving power...
Mate of mine had a master power switch wired up at his house, where it turns everything off except the fridge when he leave for work. Nothing on standby, no clocks, no nothing.


But how many people can afford to throw out good working whitegoods just to save few bux a year? Fridge, washing machine, freezer, dryer, TV's etc videos etc.. theres 10,000+
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Offline BC66

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #433 on: September 07, 2018, 10:17:37 AM »

We are playing with this at work atm
It’s a lithium battery back up that connects to any house either with solar or without.
Think of it as a UPS with 10kw of storage.
It can provide power back into your house to supply in peak times and it has a critical load port so in case of a power outage , you can keep things like fridges running.
It’s pretty cool and easy to adapt to your current set up


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Offline BC66

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #434 on: September 07, 2018, 10:22:08 AM »




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Offline Paddler Ed

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #435 on: September 07, 2018, 10:31:24 AM »
But how many people can afford to throw out good working whitegoods just to save few bux a year? Fridge, washing machine, freezer, dryer, TV's etc videos etc.. theres 10,000+

More looking at the power consumption to begin with - some of the funky looking things are woefully power inefficient, and that really needs to be explained more at the time of purchase.

Offline Fizzie

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #436 on: September 07, 2018, 12:55:11 PM »
Too true, there are ways and means of saving power...
Mate of mine had a master power switch wired up at his house, where it turns everything off except the fridge when he leave for work. Nothing on standby, no clocks, no nothing.


But how many people can afford to throw out good working whitegoods just to save few bux a year? Fridge, washing machine, freezer, dryer, TV's etc videos etc.. theres 10,000+

I'd spend so much time going around the house resetting clocks every arvo that it wouldn't be worth while!

I'd also wonder if he's actually saving anything, once you take into account the cost of having the switch fitted ??? We've got solar & from checking meter readings when we go away, I know the basic things left running in the house - 2 fridges, 1 freezer & various clocks - use between 5 & 7 KwH / day, made up of roughly half each solar & grid, so that's well & truly <$1 / day! :D
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Offline Cruiser 105Tvan

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #437 on: September 07, 2018, 01:23:43 PM »
Clocks don't have to be connected to the Mains.
You can get 12 to 24 Months out of a AA Battery.
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Offline Paddler Ed

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #438 on: September 07, 2018, 03:29:37 PM »
I'd spend so much time going around the house resetting clocks every arvo that it wouldn't be worth while!

I'd also wonder if he's actually saving anything, once you take into account the cost of having the switch fitted ??? We've got solar & from checking meter readings when we go away, I know the basic things left running in the house - 2 fridges, 1 freezer & various clocks - use between 5 & 7 KwH / day, made up of roughly half each solar & grid, so that's well & truly <$1 / day! :D

Turning (nearly) everything off when we are out and overnight resulted in about a 10% drop in power use - brings us under 5KWH/day for 2 of us.

Offline Bird

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #439 on: September 07, 2018, 03:45:08 PM »
Quote from: Cruiser 105Tvan
Clocks don't have to be connected to the Mains.

Does anyone use clocks round the house anymore?? I just use my fone.
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Offline Paddler Ed

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #440 on: September 07, 2018, 03:52:56 PM »
Does anyone use clocks round the house anymore?? I just use my fone.

Yep, have a clock in the kitchen/lounge and still wear a watch. Dog also tells me when it's 6pm (dinner time)

Offline prodigyrf

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #441 on: September 07, 2018, 07:24:44 PM »
The really big picture problem is the lack of level playing field for power generators and its impact on the national grid and how so? Well you may believe in taxing a colourless, odourless gaseous plant food because it makes sense like taxing biz on the size of their payrolls among other necessities, but that should apply equally to all generators- ie not just the ongoing emissions but the emissions of any inputs for the whole of life cycle of the generator. But there's a more glaring omission than that with the current RECs and various imposts on thermal generators that are being handed directly to the owners of wind turbines, solar panels and sundry tax-eating brainwaves like geothermal and sinking wave generators (Gummints shouldn't try and pick winners). There's only a level playing field marketplace if the electrons are also dispatchable and reliable.

Well that's far from the case with unreliables like wind generation and as many campers here would know with solar panels. What's been happening is deliberately subsidised wind and solar have been bludging on thermal generators to insure their lack of reliability, thereby not paying them their just insurance premia and sending them to the wall as a result. There's a fallacy of composition going on there, that it can continue unabated without heading for a communal grid train wreck in terms of reliable voltage and frequency at the flick of a switch. The only way to level that playing field is to legislate that no tenderer of electrons to the national grid can tender any more power than they can reasonably guarantee (ie short of unforeseen mechanical failure) 24/7 all year round. That way these unreliables would either have to invest in storage to lift their average tender capability, or partner with thermal generators and pay them their required premia  in order to do that, or some combination of the two. You can't guarantee a certain level of power anytime it's required then you get to keep the electrons until you can.

But that's the political problem for all those who believed we could run a modern economy on fickle electrons. They'd have to fess up they got it wrong and where's the political leadership with the cohones to tell all the mums and dads with rooftop solar that if you can't guarantee reliable 24/7 electrons to your communal neighbours you can keep them. That's the real political problem as we head for a train wreck with a national power grid unless we all wake up to the fact we need dispatchable, reliable electrons and not just those at the whims of wind and sun where it's feast or famine. Besides with all the cross subsidies and disperse transmission and voltage and frequency controls, they're proving to be very expensive, fickle electrons anyway. 
There's no Great Evil conspiracy against consumers within engineering, manufacturing and supply. Just the many tradeoffs incurred to satisfy diverse tastes, priorities and wallets. But first comes all the insatiable Gummint eggsperts, nanny-staters and usual suspects.

Offline gronk

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #442 on: September 08, 2018, 02:03:39 AM »
Does anyone use clocks round the house anymore?? I just use my fone.

Yep.....one in the microwave, the wall oven, one on the wall (batt operated ), the clock radio beside the bed.....on screen of the 2 home phones......plus the 2 mobiles.
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Offline Rumpig

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #443 on: September 08, 2018, 08:52:12 AM »
Does anyone use clocks round the house anymore?? I just use my fone.
clock is seen on the tv when it's on by hitting the info button on the remote, there's one beside my bed I look at when I go to bed and wake up (but that's about all it's used for, the misses uses her phone since her alarm clock died), the microwave clock is never set to the right time, our new stove has a clock on it my daughter set the right time on (handy to see, though not looked at heaps)....other then that we just use our phones also.
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Offline prodigyrf

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #444 on: September 08, 2018, 10:34:19 AM »
'Scott Morrison has declared the national energy guarantee “dead” and will seek endorsement from cabinet to tear up the Paris emissions target legislation when it meets formally for the first time on Monday, as the new Prime Minister moves to stamp his authority over a new policy direction for the government.
“The NEG is dead, long live ­reliability guarantee, long live default prices, long live backing new power generation,” Mr Morrison said in an interview with The Weekend Australian.' (today)

 Perhaps ScoMo is looking back at the history of predecessors and deciding it's now or never to differentiate himself from Labor and the Greens and what the Hell has he got to lose with the polls the way they are. We're about to live in interesting times  ;D
There's no Great Evil conspiracy against consumers within engineering, manufacturing and supply. Just the many tradeoffs incurred to satisfy diverse tastes, priorities and wallets. But first comes all the insatiable Gummint eggsperts, nanny-staters and usual suspects.

Offline Bigfish

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #445 on: September 08, 2018, 11:02:16 AM »
'Scott Morrison has declared the national energy guarantee “dead” and will seek endorsement from cabinet to tear up the Paris emissions target legislation when it meets formally for the first time on Monday, as the new Prime Minister moves to stamp his authority over a new policy direction for the government.
“The NEG is dead, long live ­reliability guarantee, long live default prices, long live backing new power generation,” Mr Morrison said in an interview with The Weekend Australian.' (today)

 Perhaps ScoMo is looking back at the history of predecessors and deciding it's now or never to differentiate himself from Labor and the Greens and what the Hell has he got to lose with the polls the way they are. We're about to live in interesting times ;D

He,s just feeding the sheep what they want to hear...
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Offline tryagain

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #446 on: September 08, 2018, 12:17:15 PM »
I haven't really looked into the policies and lack thereof regarding power generation, but two general themes from renewable advocates seem to be contradictory, one is that renewables are now the cheapest form of new generation, the other is that renewables are being back by a lack of legislative certainty.

Surely if the first point is true, the government has backed it's chosen outcome until it has become inevitable, it would be better for them to step back and let the market decide the most economical way to transition and not keep forking over money (predominantly to large corporations) with little outcome to show for it. The only argument for them to continue is that a slightly quicker and far more expensive option is better.

There is still a role to play for them in ensuring the reliability of the network but is there much value in still throwing money after specific subsidies when it's not going to change much?

It seems like ScoMo might be taking an economically sensible approach here, the big question will be how good of a salesman he can be though.

Offline gronk

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #447 on: September 08, 2018, 03:04:49 PM »
What the renewable crowd don't get is the basics of how a country uses power.

Say a tooth fairy dropped 6000 windmills and 500,000 solar panels out of the sky, and we had them all up and running in a month......and they were producing 100% of the power we currently use.......

How do we cook and watch tellie of a night time ??     Solve that and we are getting close to achieving a new era of power !!
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Offline paceman

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #448 on: September 08, 2018, 03:34:51 PM »
He,s just feeding the sheep what they want to hear...

What the ‘sheep’ want to hear is common sense...

Which this seems to be heading towards...

Completely disregarding coal as a viable source of reliable, plentiful and cheap power is ridiculous.

Maybe the ‘sheep’ are sick of being fed halfhearted promises about cheap renewable energy that can magically solve our power issues.

I don’t care where my power comes from, as long as it is cheap, plentiful and reliable.


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Offline wada4wd

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #449 on: September 08, 2018, 04:29:34 PM »
What the renewable crowd don't get is the basics of how a country uses power.

Say a tooth fairy dropped 6000 windmills and 500,000 solar panels out of the sky, and we had them all up and running in a month......and they were producing 100% of the power we currently use.......

How do we cook and watch tellie of a night time ??     Solve that and we are getting close to achieving a new era of power !!

If we replaced the coal and gas system with renewable, it would be done correctly. We have to do it anyway over time.

Wind power runs by the wind, not only over daytime. So it isn't the same as solar.

So, without coal and gas, we would run solar/wind/hydro/etc and run them with adequate battery system to allow the system to run when the sun is out and the wind isn't running.

Port Augusta is starting to build a large solar system: https://reneweconomy.com.au/aurora-what-you-should-know-about-port-augustas-solar-power-tower-86715/

Quote
A field of billboard-sized computer-controlled mirrors (100m2 heliostats) follow the sun and reflect sunlight onto a target at the top of a 227m tower, where the equivalent of 1200 suns heats up a molten salt — not table salt, but an inert mixture of sodium nitrate and potassium nitrate, traditionally used as garden fertiliser.

According to SolarReserve, the initial melting of the salt is a one-time process, after which the liquid salt is recirculated and used for the 40+ year life of the plant – without any degradation, or the need for replacement or topping up. Temporary equipment is brought on-site during plant commissioning to melt the salt, which is later removed after the process is completed.

Just to put a rumour to rest, no natural gas or other fuel is required for power generation, and the plant will have no pipeline feed.

Molten salt starts in the ‘cold’ storage tank at 288°C and is circulated up to the ‘receiver’ — a set of 14 panels of tube walls arranged into a cylindrical vessel approximately 30m high and 20m wide — heating the salt to 565°C. The heated salt then descends the tower and is stored in the ‘hot’ storage tank.

When power is required, the heated salt is pumped through a heat exchanger to transfer the heat energy from the salt to water in order to generate high temperature/pressure steam which is then run through a standard steam turbine generator, not unlike the turbines in many thermal power stations.

That is only one plant. If we want to move forward there are many options other than burning coal and continuing to wrecking the environment.