Power and gas is to expensive.

[briann532]

We have just returned from 30 days in Forster camping in the caravan off the grid.
(Not entirely though - we still had our internet dongle!!!)

We survived very well for over a month with a family of four using only 2 x 100 ah battery and a solar panel.
We used gas for the fridge, weber, bbq and hot water system. I went through just under 2 bottles of gas at $14.99 a refill at the local servo.
Using this equation - 2 x 12 = 24 bottles a year at $15 ea = $360 in gas. Free electricity.

Now we did watch a bit of tv, charge laptops, phones, ipads and torches etc. We also ran the Waeco beer / wine fridge the wholetime as well.
So you can do it if you really want to , but the problem is how many people "want to"
It's nice to turn on the AC after a hot day.

Off grid can be done and "recycling" of lead acid batteries is incredibly effective and leads to minimal environmental damage and waste. (Can't say the same for the smartphones and laptops though)

If you really want to stick it to the power companies then just do it. Go off grid.
Design weather effective housing features, utilise insulation, become more aware of power usage and go gas for everything else.

Watch the price of everyone else's power go up to pay for their loss of your money...........Now that's another story!!!

Brian

[gronk]

Where at Forster did you "free" camp ??

[MadMarv]

I might be wrong here but my thoughts on costs going up are more to do with the financial bottom line .... technology has improved all electrical appliances/lighing etc over the years so we now actually use less power per person than we did say 30 years ago but business still need to make a figure to make a profit so the price per say watt must go up ... so we are using much less power but paying more ...... wel thats how i see it ...

[Cruiser 105Tvan]

Agree Marv.
The higher the cost, the more the Gov. gets in GST etc., so why would they discourage it.
Just the price of Fuel is another good example of the price gouging we have to put up with.
But this thread is about Gas and electricity.

[Moya]

I might be wrong here but my thoughts on costs going up are more to do with the financial bottom line .... technology has improved all electrical appliances/lighing etc over the years so we now actually use less power per person than we did say 30 years ago but business still need to make a figure to make a profit so the price per say watt must go up ... so we are using much less power but paying more ...... wel thats how i see it ...

Yes less per person but there are a Shit load more people so it adds up!

[Paddler Ed]

Power companies have a limit to the amount they can increase charges... BUT that is related to what they spend in infrastructure investment (hence the expression gold plated poles and wires), therefore they will relatively needlessly spend money on power transmission infrastructure whilst cutting jobs (increases in wages don't translate into price increases under the AER rules) as that allows them to make more money... Have a read up on Rate of Return in a monopoly environment; the AER has got some rules on it:
https://www.aer.gov.au/system/files/AER%20Better%20Regulation%20factsheet%20-%20rate%20of%20return%20guideline%20-%20December%202013.pdf

The criticisms are fairly well known, this is an older piece, but from a reputable source (Cambridge University in the UK) https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/1810/344/EP19.pdf?sequence=1
"We refer to strategic behaviour or gaming as type of behaviour that aim to increase profits without achieving real efficiency gains, i.e. they defy the incentive purpose of benchmarking, the regulatory objectives of efficient operation, and protection of public interest."

Basically what the power companies are often doing...
"Averch and Johnson (1962) showed that ROR regulation encourages utilities to inflate their regulatory asset base through over-investment and socially inefficient resource allocation." Averch and Johnson IS pretty much the difinitive work on this.

In the process of finding that, I found some other interesting pieces via Google Scholar:
http://markdiesendorf.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/diesendorf-simulations-2011-1.pdf


TL,DR:
Power companies will invest so that it allows them to increase prices, even if the investment isn't needed. Investment though isn't in people on the ground.
"The periodic rate reviews in price cap regulation provide the regulated firm with an incentive to build-up or inflate their regulatory asset or cost base (RAB and RCB) prior to a rate review. In general, by building up the regulatory cost-base of the reference year through creating or accumulating costs, the firm can achieve a net gain by increasing its allowed revenues for the subsequent rate period." (Jamasab, Nillesen and Pollitt, 2003)


(all references above found via scholar.google.com.au, and none are University/subscription access only)

[Fizzie]

We have just returned from 30 days in Forster camping in the caravan off the grid.

I went through just under 2 bottles of gas at $14.99 a refill at the local servo.
Using this equation - 2 x 12 = 24 bottles a year at $15 ea = $360 in gas. Free electricity.

Hey Brian, you obviously had fun

Re gas - 2 x 9kg or 4.5kg Guessing 4.5's if only $15 to fill

Our kitchen cooktop burnt out a little while back & the dead bit can't be replaced due to age & lack of spares, so we've been running off 2 butane stoves, quite well

We're actually thinking of putting in a gas cooktop running off 9kg bottles, so good to hear how much you actually went through.

[Fizzie]

technology has improved all electrical appliances/lighing etc over the years so we now actually use less power per person than we did say 30 years ago but business still need to make a figure to make a profit so the price per say watt must go up ... so we are using much less power but paying more ...... wel thats how i see it ...

& that's why some people refer to it as the death spiral - price of power goes up so people use less; then the power company has to charge more to make the same, or higher, profit, so power bills go up; so people use less power ...

[Fizzie]

Power companies have a limit to the amount they can increase charges... BUT that is related to what they spend in infrastructure investment

Ed, I also believe that what they spend on advertising counts as "investment" so when they run glossy ad's tellng us what a wonderful job they're doing, we then pay for the cost of those ad's in next years electricity charges

[Bird]

"The surge will increase concerns among policymakers over energy and household budgets as Parliament gets ready to resume next week"

Are they serious, there isn't a politician in this country that's in touch with the average/below average wage earner...
as for being concerned, it looks good for the camera and front page..

http://www.theage.com.au/business/the-economy/electricity-prices-jump-12-per-cent-six-times-the-average-pay-rise-20180131-p4yz4k.html

[Pete79]

How dumb would a local government be to think they can offset their whole power consumption with one of those unreliable solar farm thinga-me-jigs...??

Oh wait.... What's that you say...??

The Sunshine Coast Solar Farm is now live and feeding electricity into the power grid, making Sunshine Coast Council the first local government in Australia to offset 100% of its electricity consumption with energy from a renewable source.

Mayor Mark Jamieson said the 15 megawatt (MW) solar farm at Valdora allowed council to take control of its own electricity supply, combating rising electricity costs and achieving an important sustainability milestone.

“All power consumed at all of council’s facilities, including our administration buildings, aquatic centres, community and performance venues, as well as holiday parks, libraries, art galleries and sporting facilities, will be offset with energy from a renewable source thanks to this nation-leading project,” Mayor Jamieson said

https://www.sunshinecoast.qld.gov.au/Council/News-Centre/Sunshine%20Coast%20Solar%20Farm%20goes%20live%20in%20Australian%20first%20240717

“Since its commission in July last year, the Sunshine Coast Solar Farm has generated more than 12,000 megawatts and it will conservatively deliver $22 million in savings, after all costs, for our ratepayers over the next 30 years."

https://www.sunshinecoast.qld.gov.au/Council/News-Centre/Sunshine-Coast-joins-Australias-biggest-council-climate-partnership-290118

“Already, 40,000-plus Sunshine Coast households have rooftop solar and with our own solar farm now generating, this is equivalent to a 140MW renewable energy power station on the Sunshine Coast,” Cr Robinson said

[tryagain]

How dumb would a local government be to think they can offset their whole power consumption with one of those unreliable solar farm thinga-me-jigs...??

Oh wait.... What's that you say...??

https://www.sunshinecoast.qld.gov.au/Council/News-Centre/Sunshine%20Coast%20Solar%20Farm%20goes%20live%20in%20Australian%20first%20240717



https://www.sunshinecoast.qld.gov.au/Council/News-Centre/Sunshine-Coast-joins-Australias-biggest-council-climate-partnership-290118

Let's face it though, The "offset" is only really possible because there is currently cheap dispatchable coal-generated power when the solar isn't working, yes they could add storage but then would likely turn their $22mil savings over 30years into a sizeable loss.
Not having a go at them for doing it, it seems like the environmentally and economically sound thing to do, but only really possible because of the cheap power available in the downtime.
If everyone went down the same path, the currently available cheap coal-fired power would have to be replaced with more Gas or similar generation (how many diesel generators does SA have now) with a quick response rate, This would then increase the power they have to buy in and again likely wipe out their 22mil savings.

[Pete79]

Let's face it though, The "offset" is only really possible because there is currently cheap dispatchable coal-generated power when the solar isn't working, yes they could add storage but then would likely turn their $22mil savings over 30years into a sizeable loss.
Not having a go at them for doing it, it seems like the environmentally and economically sound thing to do, but only really possible because of the cheap power available in the downtime.
If everyone went down the same path, the currently available cheap coal-fired power would have to be replaced with more Gas or similar generation (how many diesel generators does SA have now) with a quick response rate, This would then increase the power they have to buy in and again likely wipe out their 22mil savings.

Yes, true. But at least they've done it at the right scale.
We're lucky here to have that massive big flood plain to build this one on, not every council has that luxury, I know.
Obviously there will still be need to be a backup supply, a UPS if you will, but local generation will be a key part of the overall solution in the future.

The last quote is the one that tells the tale for me.
There's a bit over 130,000 houses in our region and almost 1/3 of them are generating their own electricity for 260 days per year on average.
With over 40,000 houses having solar and now with this large scale solar farm, that combines to generate 140MW just in our little community.

We're about to do an extension at home and when finished we plan to add solar with enough capacity to generate slightly more then we consume.
We'll be starting with a small battery bank that will be sized run our water and sewage pumps everyday and some extra for lighting and refrigeration in emergency situations.

Again, not something everyone can do, but it is the proactive approach that we are choosing to take towards this issue.
We could always choose to do nothing but rubbish any new ideas and then whinge about our bills I suppose....

[Fizzie]

we plan to add solar with enough capacity to generate slightly more then we consume.
We'll be starting with a small battery bank that will be sized run our water and sewage pumps everyday and some extra for lighting and refrigeration in emergency situations.

Good on ya Pete - make sure that you allow for expansion, panels, inverter & battery capacity down the track

[tryagain]

Again, not something everyone can do, but it is the proactive approach that we are choosing to take towards this issue.
We could always choose to do nothing but rubbish any new ideas and then whinge about our bills I suppose....

I like to think I sit somewhere in the sensible centre, not an advocate of new coal but also not an advocate of trying to go full renewables overnight. As I said, it seems to make sense for the council to do so, but that doesn't mean that it is a pathway everyone can/should go down as there is a tipping point somewhere where what makes it possible at the moment (A power grid with dispatchable power) becomes unviable and therefore solar (without storage) would also not be a viable option.

[Pete79]

Cheers Fizzie.

And Tryagain, I was not having a dig at you. I think all of your comments have been very much sensible centre and even keeled.

[tryagain]

And Tryagain, I was not having a dig at you. I think all of your comments have been very much sensible centre and even keeled.

I didn't take it personally, think I just get frustrated at both sides of the debate selectively spinning their arguments like it's purely a political argument to be won. Balanced and qualified is probably too long and boring to be newsworthy but it would be nice occasionally, would probably mean more effort would go into solving the issues as well instead of trying to win the arguments.

[briann532]

Where at Forster did you "free" camp ??

Hi Gronk,

It wasn't "Free" I can assure you. They took all but my kidneys, the bestards!!! Costs nearly 2500 for the month.......

Smugglers cove holiday village.
We are in the camping area down the back with the plebs. No power.....
Great views though and plenty of space.
We fit the 2 cars, 28 foot caravan, 26 foot tarp and the boat.
Not bad for a caravan park site I reckon.

Cheers
Brian

[gronk]

Hi Gronk,

It wasn't "Free" I can assure you. They took all but my kidneys, the bestards!!! Costs nearly 2500 for the month.......

Smugglers cove holiday village.
We are in the camping area down the back with the plebs. No power.....
Great views though and plenty of space.
We fit the 2 cars, 28 foot caravan, 26 foot tarp and the boat.
Not bad for a caravan park site I reckon.

Cheers
Brian

Holy cow....and for no power !!  I knew there was a reason I don't like van parks !!
Thought you may have been down the back at Lanis Island...

[Fizzie]

There's a bit over 130,000 houses in our region and almost 1/3 of them are generating their own electricity for 260 days per year on average.
With over 40,000 houses having solar

Hey Pete - mentioned this bit during discussions in a similar thread on Whirlpool & one of the blokes was wondering if you have any idea of the ratio of rental homes to owner-occupied up your part of the world

[Pete79]

Hey Pete - mentioned this bit during discussions in a similar thread on Whirlpool & one of the blokes was wondering if you have any idea of the ratio of rental homes to owner-occupied up your part of the world

Sorry mate didn’t dig that deep into it. Didn’t bother comparing units/apartments to houses either. 

[Fizzie]

Not a prob, thanks, Pete!

BTW, put it up in the "Spotted" thread t'other day - did I spot you at Bunnings Burleigh Heads on the GC? Fluro lime-green Jeep with the same colour Seadoo jet-ski on the back!

[Nomad]

Hey Pete - mentioned this bit during discussions in a similar thread on Whirlpool & one of the blokes was wondering if you have any idea of the ratio of rental homes to owner-occupied up your part of the world

Sorry to jump in.
Roughly 62% of freestanding homes on the Sunshine Coast are owner occuppied. This would be significanlty different to the number of units owner occuppied as there are a significant amount of holiday rental units in the region.

Of that 62% different areas are significantly higher or lower depending on their location and value.

Cheers

[Fizzie]

Sorry to jump in.
Roughly 62% of freestanding homes on the Sunshine Coast are owner occuppied. This would be significanlty different to the number of units owner occuppied as there are a significant amount of holiday rental units in the region.

Of that 62% different areas are significantly higher or lower depending on their location and value.

Cheers

You're welcome, thanks Nomad!

Was actually thinking the other day that should ask you, being in real estate up there!

I'll pass it on.

[prodigyrf]

Let's face it though, The "offset" is only really possible because there is currently cheap dispatchable coal-generated power when the solar isn't working, yes they could add storage but then would likely turn their $22mil savings over 30years into a sizeable loss.
Not having a go at them for doing it, it seems like the environmentally and economically sound thing to do, but only really possible because of the cheap power available in the downtime.
If everyone went down the same path, the currently available cheap coal-fired power would have to be replaced with more Gas or similar generation (how many diesel generators does SA have now) with a quick response rate, This would then increase the power they have to buy in and again likely wipe out their 22mil savings.

Pretty much and it's called the fallacy of composition (ie what's advantageous for the few doesn't work for the whole)-
http://joannenova.com.au/2018/02/electricity-prices-fell-for-forty-years-in-australia-then-renewables-came/

PS: I see they're still scrabbling around with the feast or famine unreliables-
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/personalfinance/households-to-hand-over-control-of-backyard-pool-in-power-trial/ar-BBJmLRv
Watts a thousand bucks a pool when yer busy saving the planet eh? Plenty more where that came from