06-09 Hilux Extra Cab Tray Top Info Required

[cruiser 91]

Hi,
Recently sold my bullet proof 80 series wagon and now looking at the Hilux extra cab tray top with a tradesman like canopy and RTT.
I have ruled out a single cab due to bench like seating unless i can find single seaters.
Also thinking the 100L water bladder can go on the floor behind the seats in a extra cab keep the weight down low.

My main concern is the chassi. Reading lots about loaded dual cabs bending and breaking chassis 4wding.
Does anyone know if the extra cab chassi is susceptible to this problem? 

 
 

[chester ver2.0]

Any and all chassis are susceptible to the problem if they following 2 individually or as a combination occur

1 You go and stick on an aftermarket tray that is about 3 foot longer than the original tray then on top of that put on a 2 foot tow bar extension on load everything behind the axle so you can reach it from the back and wonder why the chassis snaps.

2. You put airbags between the rear leaf springs so instead of the load being spread across 3 foot or so of chassis between the rear leaf springs the air bags are now point loading all of that weight on 1 tiny section of the chassis leading to fatigue and you posting an embarrassing pic on facebook of a ute folded in half.

Moral of the story is that Toyota engineers are a little smarter than some of these aftermarket guys so if you modifications do not radically change the design parameters you will be fine

[Bird]

Moral of the story is that Toyota engineers are a little smarter than some of these aftermarket guys so if you modifications do not radically change the design parameters you will be fine

You would think that of nearly all manufacturers..

but in their never ending battle to lower weight and get better fictional fuel figures that nobody on earth can get they weaken the chassis too much...
Maybe it has more to do with the quality of the cheapest steel they can get their hands on... Every cent saved and all that...

[bigpaulie]

I have to agree with Chester, having owned an extra cab Hilux I found it very capable and strong. I have seen double cabs with a tray off a single cab, home made tow bar extension brackets and massive amounts of storage 4 feet past the axle, they bend. I like the extra space behind the front seat to lock in the valuables more securely. Go for it, a good ute.
Cheers, Paul

[Metters]

They all bend and they can all be used without bending, it all depends on the owner.

I looked at the specifications for one particular model Triton dual cab a few years ago, it had a maximum carrying capacity of 930 kg and 270 kg on the tow ball.  If you put five large adults with a combined weight of say 460 kg in the cabin then added about 70 kg of fuel to fill the tank and put the remaining 400 kg in the tub with the heaviest items as far forward as possible, you will never bend it

If you load it with two people in the front, a full tank of fuel, 220 kg on the tow ball, two spare wheels out the back and about 160 kg in the tub, you could be well under GVM but still bend the chassis because you have too much weight too far back behind the rear axle.

Imagine an empty single cab with a pallet right on the rear end of the tray. If you started placing bags of cement on the tray, the back would keep going down and the front would be rising.  The more you added the more the front would rise.  Next remove the pallet and install heavier aftermarket springs or air bags then put the loaded pallet back on.  The back is still going to go down and the front is still going to rise because the springs or bags have simply compressed and tilted with the chassis.

That is static weight levering the chassis down behind the axle.  Now try lifting the loaded pallet up about 250 mm and drop it onto the tray.  It is going to fall and build up momentum then hit the tray with an almighty bang and just about lift the front wheels off the ground.  The chassis might even bend there and then.  The weight of the pallet has not changed but the falling material (mass) in it is the cause of the damage.

That is what is happening to an overloaded rear end of any type of cab/chassis vehicle as it bounces up and down at each end on rough roads.  The chassis out behind the axle is constantly having to suddenly lift all the material back there or stop it suddenly when it falls.  The far end of the chassis will be flexing up and down like the end of a diving board in these conditions

Dual cabs seem to suffer the most damage because when owners load them up near the maximum, they rarely if ever have enough of the load in the cabin.  It is usually a case of too little up front and too much out the back.

It is not confined to 4wds either.  I have seen bent 2wd single cab tradie's utes in cities.  Once again it was too much heavy equipment well back behind the axle.

One more thing is the use of a weight distributing hitch when towing. Some manufacturers say you must use one above a certain ball weight while others say no.  Check in the car handbook for this information.  These things attach to the tow bar and stick out the back like wheelbarrow handles.  When you lift the end of the bars and hook them onto the trailer draw bar, you are levering the rear end of the chassis up and taking weight off the rear axle.  That weight is then redistributed between the front wheels of the car and the wheels of the trailer.  Springs or air bags can't do that. That is the only way you can add any support to the rear end of the chassis but they are intended to work with a correctly loaded car, not one with an overloaded rear end.

The down side is they can not be used on many camper trailers because of the terrain they usually operate in.  If the angle between the car and trailer exceeds a certain limit, things like tow bars or chassis start breaking.

There is nothing wrong with the design of these utes or the quality of the steel in them.  All of them have been designed to do a certain job and they will do it providing they are kept within their design limits.  Unfortunately what they have been designed to do does not suit every owner.

[cruiser 91]

Many thanks for everyones rely so far.

Ive come across an Aussie youtube video on a 09 Hilux. It blew me away that the Hilux is very susceptible to breaking CV's when lifted...Unless.........

6:25
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pP8B46Pv-o

[Metters]

It blew me away that the Hilux is very susceptible to breaking CV's when lifted...Unless.........

They can all break when used constantly at the wrong angle or are over stressed.  In one of the magazine DVDs that Roothy made a few years ago, he broke a CV on his old Cruiser wagon.  It had a live front axle so the CVs were working at the correct angles but by the way he drove it, they were often over stressed.

I would not be surprised if most or maybe all manufacturers use the CVs as the designed weak link in the front drive train.  I remember reading something about Land Rovers that said the rear axles are the weak link because they can be replaced in minutes without even jacking the car up.   It still takes a lot to break them though and it is usually modifications or overloading that does it. 

The aftermarket industry can supply tougher axles which sounds great except you then move the weak link to another location like the diff or the transmission where it is not so cheap or easy to repair.

No matter what you do to a car when modifying it you will get what you wanted and you will also loose something.  One major one is suspension design.  It is too complicated to try and explain here but this link, while it has nothing to do with all the popular 4wds, shows you how the rear suspension design can assist in cornering stability.  http://www.civilengineeringhandbook.tk/vehicle-technology/1082-suspension-roll-steer.html   Leaf springs can do the same by changing the angle of the rear axle.  That is why the front eye of the spring is down low, the rear shackles are up much higher and the spring is flat or close to it when correctly loaded.  Installing high arched springs to lift the car stuffs this feature up.

Then there is the vital tyre slip angles and the front to rear slip angle ratio.  Altering tyre sizes and pressures throws the original design out the window.  I am not saying don't modify cars but knowing exactly how they work in the first place and what your alterations have done to them may end up saving your life one day.

[chester ver2.0]

You probably only notice broken cv's on a hilux cause there is so many of them around meaning there are so many more aftermarket suspension suppliers.

Suspension options are many for the hilux between mild 2 inch bolt on kits right up to 3.5 inch arctic truck setup styles

Now here is the difference

On your average 2 inch setup you need longer springs shocks and some mounting hardware a wheel alignment and that is about it, most cv angles remain within spec tolerances

The you go wild and some other things come into play diff drops, driveline spacers, extended brake lines, castor correction plates, adjustable upper control arms etc

The reputable dealers will discuss and supply this for you keeping everything in spec or as close as you can get it. the cheap ones will keep there prices down by skipping components say a diff drop keeping cv's at extreme angles leading to breakages.

[Bird]

The reputable dealers will discuss and supply this for you keeping everything in spec or as close as you can get it. the cheap ones will keep there prices down by skipping components say a diff drop keeping cv's at extreme angles leading to breakages.

what he said is right.. but you may not like the price difference in doing it right and just doing it. Many don't, thus the ****ups.

[Pete79]

Many thanks for everyones rely so far.

Ive come across an Aussie youtube video on a 09 Hilux. It blew me away that the Hilux is very susceptible to breaking CV's when lifted.

The reality is ALL independent front suspension vehicles are susceptible to braking CVs when lifted.
Like everything (including chassis) when you make modifications that push components well beyond their design parameters they will break.
 

the cheap ones will keep there prices down by skipping components say a diff drop keeping cv's at extreme angles leading to breakages.

This goes for cheap owners just as much manufacturers.
If you're going to do it, do it properly.

[cruiser 91]

Thanks again for the input.

Makes me think I should go back to the 80 series for peace of mind and keep money in my pocket.

[Bird]

Makes me think I should go back to the 80 series for peace of mind and keep money in my pocket.

You could do much worse than a good 80...
I've had chats with plenty of mates in recent years about what they/I'd go and buy if I was upgrading, and there nothing out there that really jumps out as an improvement. They all have failings one way or the other.

[Pete79]

You could do much worse than a good 80...

Yep, you could buy any patrol....











Sorry, couldn't resist.

[SambOz]

Thanks again for the input.

Makes me think I should go back to the 80 series for peace of mind and keep money in my pocket.

Don't stress to much about the anti Hilux info, the good points will out weigh the bad ones.

IME buggarising around to much with the 4x4's available is what causes the problems ie lifting them hugely 3" plus then wondering why they have CV problems. Assist the problem by fitting 33" wheels with muddy tread patterns and again not wake up. Then to finish it off, put a chip in it with the big muddies, 3" exhaust, drive it like you stole it and wonder why
the cars on the 3rd clutch since you modded it.............lets get real....lol.....

All things in moderation is a good rule, you can lift it a bit and it won't adversely affect the CV's, mine are original at 165K in a 11/2006 model cab/chassis that has spent a lot of its life towing plant on a tandem trailer.

After an 80 with I am guessing, a NA Diesel, you will find a stock standard diesel Hilux extremely quick and returning L/100km - MPG economy you only ever dreamt of with the old wagon.

A poor point with the stock Hilux is that it will not have the front ground clearance of the old 80, a worry if you do tracks with lots of rocks or high bits between the wheel ruts.

Chugging round locally, no city driving or towing the last fill on my Hilux, this week, was 28mpg  that's pretty good!!