Wash up from the recent GVM operation in Vic.

[Bird]

... don't see current crop of drivers being any better for it.

probably because the are only trained to pass the test... not how to drive.

in Vic, apparently if they wait till 21, they don't have to do the 120 hours which is what many are doing...

[achjimmy]

Course once the authorities are through helping the towing community and generating another source of income their they'll probably start to weigh fourbies and looking at the gvm there 

[Paddler Ed]

Everyone needs to drop the $2k is too expensive thing. Bird just pulled that figure from where the sun don't shine.
Edz posted a link, and the actual cost is around $600.

It's obvious there are a lot of people towing heavy vans who haven't a clue what they are doing.
Surely some requirement for training and/or testing is a sensible idea?
We require people to pass written and practical tests before we let them loose on public roads in a motor vehicle. It seems pretty reasonable to me to require people to demonstrate they can safely tow before we let them loose with a 2 or 3 tonne van hanging off the rear of their vehicle.

I went to look at how much it cost to do a B+E training course and then the test in the UK:
-About £400+VAT (£480) if you've already been towing
-About £675+VAT (£810) for those who haven't been towing and need extra training.

The main one that'll catch people out if they do the test is doing the reversing manoeuvre; it's based on the truck and bus test (which I've done for a 17 seat minibus):


So a total for a novice of £810 - or 1.6 weeks of average weekly earnings (£509 pw acorrding to the ONS); taking from the ABS the average Australian weekly wage of $1516, the guesstimate would be somewhere in the region of $2400 based on a similar ratio (this allows for the difference in wages etc that a straight exchange rate doesn't) for someone with no experience, or for those with some experience $1400.

Perhaps Bird's estimate of $2k is a bit closer than we think... this company's training course for towing is £252, so again using the average wage, works out at $750 (so a bit more than the $600 that was quoted by Edz - if we allow for it being over by 25% then the $2k is pretty much spot on)

[Merts]

The main one that'll catch people out if they do the test is doing the reversing manoeuvre; it's based on the truck and bus test (which I've done for a 17 seat minibus)

Why do you have to be able to reverse?

I know of more than one person who used to make sure any site they booked was drive through, and they weren't available they got the park operator to put their van into the spot.
I kid you not.

[Paddler Ed]

Why do you have to be able to reverse?

I know of more than one person who used to make sure any site they booked was drive through, and they weren't available they got the park operator to put their van into the spot.
I kid you not.

I work at a caravan park... amazing how many people only want a drive through site because they can't reverse...

[tombie]

Still not seeing the problem Paddler...

A simple drivers licence in Germany is $1,250 Aus for a simple car licence.

Takes mandatory attendance at training session both written and practical.

In Germany in 2011 the failure rate was 28%

Over here it's a joke, trained to pass a test not how to drive; and many oldies per say, never had formal training - remember the old "drive around the block for me" licence


People have to jump through hoops to get a firearm licence - vehicles kill significantly more people..

Truck drivers need to jump through hoops to drive an articulated vehicle... and they need to show understanding of vehicle control AND legislative requirements.

Can't say I know anyone who was tested on their knowledge of towing requirements and legislation on a conventional car licence..

NO ONE is **entitled** to drive what they want, they need to demonstrate competency.
Once demonstrated they can then be legally held to account for breach of the legislation.

Personally, those in breach should have the right to tow revoked for X months for a first offence (say on a scale of punishment similar to DUI - where the amount of breach determines penalty)

Something like:
- exceed GVM/GCM by up to 5% - 1 month
- exceed GVM/GCM by up to 10% - 2 months
- exceed GVM/GCM by up to 15% - 3 months
- exceed GVM/GCM by up to 20% - 6 months
- exceed GVM/GCM by up to 25% - 12 months

And appropriate fines to reinforce the point...


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[Bird]

I work at a caravan park... amazing how many people only want a drive through site because they can't reverse...

I would pull out a chair and the esky and ipss myself for hours.

[tombie]

Why do you have to be able to reverse?

I know of more than one person who used to make sure any site they booked was drive through, and they weren't available they got the park operator to put their van into the spot.
I kid you not.

I've seen some of these people turn into a dead end street...

Provides great entertainment!


I've personally had to reverse van and trailer over a kilometre off road to get out of a track that became impassible..

A very important skill.....

(And let's not forget the uproar on the 457 driver who couldn't get his truck out of trouble because he couldn't reverse!)


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[Bird]

I've seen some of these people turn into a dead end street...

there used to be a great video of this on youtube with a bloke trying to get out of a short dead end street with van on.. masses of entertainment!!!!!

[wilson79]

when talking about being over GVM when it comes to towing trailers, The first step as has been said before is getting all the trailer manufactures to get there weights correct from the start..This may mean that if the trailer comes with 2 gas holders the gas bottles are included etc..

its no good putting on the compliance plate that your trailer weighs 900kgs and loaded you can carry 1500 kgs when the trailer actually weighs 1200kgs. by the time any one fills their tanks and throws some food in they are over.. the user really has no chance of being "legal" there needs to be more transparency from the manufacturers that way it gives the purchaser a chance to get their set up legal.

[Merts]

I suppose like most things, reversing a trailer is a matter of thinking about how it works, and then practice.

It's surprising how many people seem to think it's bordering on impossible.
I can remember backing a 6x4 trailer out of a block of flats driveway, into the street and then reverse parallel parked it and the car in two vacant spaces between a couple of parked cars. There was a bloke standing there watching, and he commented on how he couldn't believe anyone could do what he'd just watched me do.
The point is, it's not really that hard, but it isn't something that just comes naturally either.

[Bird]

http://www.doityourselfrv.com/watching-man-back-trailer-will-make-want-help/#

https://youtu.be/EIHrzcrB_3E
I cry laughin everytime I see this..

no... nobody needs reversing training....

[tombie]

Talk of Van manufacturers is good - they are poor at best for correctly reporting van weights - especially for custom builds..

Should it not extend to vehicles and aftermarket suppliers of prime accessories?

Example - a LC 200 owner can look up his GVM and tare... but they report Tare differently to say Land Rover - who allow for a full fuel tank and a 75kg driver in their figure.. Toyota don't.

Then say LC200 owner goes to ARB and gets a bar, winch, Kaymar and 2 spares and a Long range tank..

Certainly ARB knows exactly how much all of these items weigh; and would easily be able to tell you how much the original bars and tank removed weighed.

This enables calculation of remaining capacity...

Perhaps the industry should look at this also!


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[tombie]

http://www.doityourselfrv.com/watching-man-back-trailer-will-make-want-help/#

https://youtu.be/EIHrzcrB_3E
I cry laughin everytime I see this..

no... nobody needs reversing training....

Gold!!! I had to stop watching I was laughing too much!


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[Merts]

Certainly ARB knows exactly how much all of these items weigh; and would easily be able to tell you how much the original bars and tank removed weighed.

Yeah, you would think so.
Good luck getting anyone to tell you those figures.

[Bird]

Gold!!! I had to stop watching I was laughing too much!

love the engine sounds LMAO

[Paddler Ed]

Still not seeing the problem Paddler...

A simple drivers licence in Germany is $1,250 Aus for a simple car licence.

Takes mandatory attendance at training session both written and practical.

In Germany in 2011 the failure rate was 28%

Over here it's a joke, trained to pass a test not how to drive; and many oldies per say, never had formal training - remember the old "drive around the block for me" licence


People have to jump through hoops to get a firearm licence - vehicles kill significantly more people..

Truck drivers need to jump through hoops to drive an articulated vehicle... and they need to show understanding of vehicle control AND legislative requirements.

Can't say I know anyone who was tested on their knowledge of towing requirements and legislation on a conventional car licence..

NO ONE is **entitled** to drive what they want, they need to demonstrate competency.
Once demonstrated they can then be legally held to account for breach of the legislation.

I'm not saying there's a problem - I'm saying that the estimated cost of $2k is realistic, BUT expect a drop in sales of caravans and trailers as people get turned off by an arduous and confusing process - unless it's a simple

[Bird]

BUT expect a drop in sales of caravans and trailers

... is that an issue really?

[weeds]

I'm not convinced training or course would be all that effective, the car license system isn't all that good.

More input from the industry and better handover would improve things.

From memory Green RV offered to weigh members combinations, I wonder how many he attracted. From memory it went a lot. I think this was a good initiative from industry.

Re: weigh bridges, it's nothing for us to hook up and drive thousands of kilometers but won't drive across town to weigh a trailer.

[feisty]

Plagiarised from elsewhere.........

this is the report for a Police Operation in Victoria recently, as well as the report from "Caravanners Forum, from the Police officer who initiated it

http://rveethereyet.com/

Hi
Sorry for the delay in getting this done. I was landed with another operation to put together last week and I have only just got it finished now.

Ok here we go...

Firstly, keep in mind this is just a snap shot in time. Any figures I give should not be taken as scientifically analysed in anyway. Just raw data collected from those that were weighed or spoken to over the 2 days.
Next, the actual going out and weighing of vans was carried out to try and alter the perception (well founded) that police do not target caravans for compliance. That perception was to be altered by allowing various members of social media forums, FaceBook groups, written magazines, radio and so on to witness the activity first hand and report on it. The object being to spread the word as far as possible that the chances of being weighed have now increased. This was then going to drive conversations and discussion across social media to encourage more caravan users to think about their situation and start to make some changes. Hopefully, they themselves would then help and encourage new entrants into the market to consider weights and safety BEFORE buying their van, not after and realising they had stuffed up!
There is so much anecdotal evidence from forums like this one about all these big overweight vans tracking up and down the highwways. i wanted to test that evidence and get some real facts. I also wanted to get an idea of how much your average caravaner knows and understands about ratings and weights
The operation was setup to coincide with a very busy period of traffic passing through the East Gippsland town of Newmerella near Orbost. Caravns were to be brought in at random to be inspected and weighed. Some did come down voluntarily afetr hearing about it on socila media.

So some basic data...

Of the approx 80+ caravans that passed through the site 71 caravans were weighed. Only 1 motorhome surprisingly.

All were asked several questions

1. Do you actually know what your ratings are?
2. Have you ever weighed your rig?
3. Do you know what you weigh right now?
3. Can you provide an estimate of what you think you weigh right now?
4. Do you know where your compliance plate is?

Only 2 drivers knew all their ratings
Only 3 drivers had ever weighed their rigs
Only 3 drivers knew what they weighed at that moment.
ALL (except the 3 above) underestimated their weights as at that moment.
All knew where the compliance plate was. 2 didnt have one attached.

Caravans were then weighed by my friends from Vic Roads. This was done by way of portable scales. All fully tested and certified.

GTM was measured hitched up.

Caravan was unhitched.

Ball weight was measured and ATM calculated.

These were then compared to plated ratings for the caravan and tow bar.

41 caravans were overweight in 1 or more category.

Most were within 10% of plated ratings.

5 were 20% over their plated ratings.

ATM was the most common issue, followed by actual ball weight and then tow bar capacity.

Highest over rating on ATM was 2880kg on a plated ATM of 2600.

Most over rating on ball download was 400kg on max of 280kg

Most over on Tow bar loading was 400kg on max of 300kg

Most ATM offences were in the 1500kg to 2500kg size vans. Camper trailers were the worst offender. Loaded with bikes, kayaks, generators, tool boxes etc. Most of these had max ATM around 1650 and were consistently 100+kg over. These were also being towed by the smallest cars, many of them sedans that did not have the capacity to tow those weights. These were generally families of 4 or 5 and the car was also loaded up to max.
We did not have the time to weigh tow vehicles. However, those that were obviously an issue were given further advice. Overloaded tow vehicles are not included in the 41 offenders. If they had been I estimate at least another 15 or more offences against GVM and GCM would have been recorded.
Several with tinnies on the roof were weighed and none were significantly over on van weight. GVM/GM may have been an issue.

Most notable tow vehicle offence was an older model Colorado towing a 5 wheeler. The 5er went to 3.5t. The rear axle on the colly went 2.1t. We did not unhitch. The Colly also had boxes of tools, fuel and a generator in the back. They were full timers on the road and we had quite along chat.

Where possible, I had a look inside those vans that were overweight. The common issue here was that if you had placed items on the floor, under beds, on chairs and so on, then the van was overweight. If everything fitted into a proper cupboard and was not loose somewhere in the van, they were generally less likely to be overweight. One customer who was 350kg over weight plead innocence as to how he could possibly be overweight. The i opened his door and the first item at the door was an old steel 4 burner BBQ. 4 bikes to add to the 2 on the back, tents, swags, inflatable boats and lots of bags of clothes. He estimated he had 350kg in his van. He had close to 700kg. (if Tare was right)

Almost all were very surprised at what they actually weighed. Some just did not believe the scales.
Some of those using WDH believed that they allowed them to load more than ATM into the van because it would be transferred to the car via the hitch.
One person calculated what his payload could be by loading his van to ATM, then adding on what he measured his ball weight as becayse that came off the ATM when hitched. So ATM 3500, load to 3850 because the 350kg was going on the tow ball and viola, back down to rated ATM. That was another long chat.
Only one driver said his partner ever drove whilst towing.

Of most concern was that most drivers had little idea of what they actually weighed. The fact we only had 41 offenders I think was more by luck than any sort of planning by the driver.
A number of those passing through were given some help in re organising their payload distribution to bring them closer to ratings.
All drivers were given a handout produced by Colin Young from the Caravan Council of Australia. This explained each of the ratings and how to weigh the rig at a weighbridge. We tried to keep the information simple to avoid info overload. Just concentrating on the van helped and when I experimented with talking tug weights, eyes would glass over and I lost them, so that was avoided.

2 tickets were given for inadequate mirrors. 1 Van. there were tickets for unregistered, unlicensed and unroadworthy issues too. 1 failed drug test but no drink drivers from over 1700 tests.
The Sheriff had a massive couple of days executing over 600 warrants and collecting or arranging payments in excess of $200,000. None from caravaners.

The conversations had with drivers, co drivers and family were far more valuable than the weight data collected. It gave an insight into how the average man thinks and what he understands about weights and safety. All expressed a desire to be compliant.
Most knew where to find the information they needed, but unfortunately complacency was apparent. The social media campaign was paramount in making this operation successful. Attending on the day was Marty (Darcy7) from this forum and who has his own successful blog, rveethereyet.com. He was also representing the Everything Caravan and Camping FaceBook group which has in excess of 120,000 members. Also present was Banjo (Denis) and Derek representing the Australian Caravan Club. These 3 gentlemen were tasked with speaking with as many drivers as possible about the benefits of being a member of a club, forum or facebook group. It is without doubt a given that being an active (even if silent) member of a club, you will most certainly be exposed to more relevant information relating to safety then those that go it alone.
We also had a correspondent from Caravan and Motor Home on Tour. Gary Moreland, who arrived on a very nice Indian motorbike, has a back ground in heavy haulage and is a great advocate for the Chain of Responsibility and the impact that legislation had on the truck industry. He has some excellent opinions on where we should be pushing the industry.

Various stories were circulated onto social media in the weeks leading up to the operation. This was done through Marty on his site and we then spread that link across as many other sites as possible. (Thanks Motherhen and others)
The responses to these posts was nothing short of amazing. 100,000's of hit on each article released. Of note was that many of those reading the articles on various sites went on to click other tags that led them to caravan specific safety articles. Motherhen had upwards of 50,000 views on her various platforms.
Police media released their article on the morning of the operation. In the next 2 days, it was viewed over 52,000 times and over 400 comments left, mostly positive. New pictures were uploaded to police media during the 2 days and these continued to boost hits.
Marty also posted several photographs and some text to the Everything Caravan and Camping FaceBook page throughout the first day. these again were viewed over 50,000 times. I also did 3 ABC Radio spots, 2 recorded and 1 live from the site. Local media also attended.
Since the operation, I have only really monitored FaceBook and Marty's site to see how the operation was received. Of note again was the number of spin off threads started by those wanting more information about weights and mirrors. Both myself, Marty and Matt Sutton who runs the Facebook group, pushed conversations along and encouraged the talk about how and where to find information. No end of vans were suddenly popping up in photographs being weighed and all the usual talk about mirrors was still going today.
Marty and Matt posted pics of them weighing their rigs. They had over 270,000 views, 100'2 of comments, like and shares. We also this week posted a comprehensive searchable list of weighbridges available across the country. It had been viewed and downloaded over 3000 times so far.
I have either written or been interviewed by several other big caravan publications, and had calls from TV shows and other interested stakeholders from around the country. So more publicity is still to come.
In essence, we have reached many 100,000's of people genuinely interested in being safe. And all we did was talk to around 80 people towing a van and post some pics of it happening. The power of social media meant we could reach so many more people than we could ever dream of talking to face to face. To see so many now on social media giving advice about weight and safety and have it discussed and taken into account by new buyers and current owners either upgrading or making alterations to their rigs is very satisfying. This will no doubt save some from having the crash they were going to have.

Where to from here?

It is apparent that there is a knowledge gap amongst caravan users. This will be addressed with more of the same. More weighing, more social media. Caravaners seem to have a thirst for information and appear very receptive of advice.
We are exploring how we can get this information into the hands of new buyers in particular. This will need collaboration with manufacturers and dealers to make weight as important as how many solar panels can go on the roof. Looking at maybe some sort of basic hand out package that can be discussed whilst talking about what to buy and then at handover.
Continued focus on education for a further period of time. This will eventually have to go into enforcement but there are a whole load of issues that would need to be ironed out before that happens.
Vic Roads have signposted a change in direction and are now happy to collaborate in helping to educate caravan users. this is a change and and a fair commitment from Vic Roads as obviously a large proportion of their time is taken with the heavy vehicle industry.
Looking at how to get some sort of (compulsory) tow ed course built into the sale of new caravans. I know some have already tried but the cost seems to be an issue, so that needs to be explored.
That course could lead to maybe a licence endorsement of some sort. However, this is a huge can of worms and has no end of pitfalls and considerations to overcome, but maybe it is time to have a proper look.
Work with manufacturers in relation to Tare weights being correctly plated. This did come up in conversations. Some had looked at the plate, estimated what the payload sort of was and believed they may be close to allowable ATM. I had to agree with some of them that it was fairly obvious the Tare was wrong from day 1 out of the dealers.

So there we have it so far. Quite a lot of good data and information was gathered and is being used to help further the cause with lots more to come.

A big thanks to Marty, Banjo, Derek and Motherhen for all the assistance they gave me. Could not have done it without your help.
The chats Marty and Banjo had with my bosses at the site have opened their eyes to the issues and I now have some heavy hitters backing further initiatives. Always good to get the opinions of the civilian population into a bosses ear. They will tell it like it is.

Myself and Vic Roads are heading to Mallacoota in March for a few days and will be weighing all the ACC members attending the East Gippsland Muster.
If you got this far... thanks for reading

Graeme

makes for some interesting reading, as well as thought provoking

Seriously good wotk mate. Very impressed you got the operation through command based mostly on education as opposed to prosecution. Congrats and well done!

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[tombie]

I doubt it... don't see a drop in drivers licences since vehicle PWR rules, mandatory hours etc...

Or boat sales since practical assessment..

If people want something they will aim for it.

If you can't organise some training, 30 min for a test and a processing fee then you obviously don't want it enough..

6-7 tonne oncoming missile... yup! I want the operator to know what they're doing.

Perception is not safety.

My favourite: "if I gave you a 15 litre container of an explosive carcinogen and told you to transport it and then decant it into another vessel at the destination."
How would you do it?
What PPE would you use?
Would you consider it safe?

*what would you do?*


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