Author Topic: Owning an Investment Property  (Read 16055 times)

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Offline DannyG

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Owning an Investment Property
« on: November 03, 2016, 11:04:04 AM »
We are going to sit down with our accountant when he gets home from holidays (he is semi retired and loves fishing) to discuss this with him but in the meantime I couldnt think of a better place to get some information on the matter  ;D

I need some schooling on owning a rental property. As I have mentioned on another thread, real estate in Tassie is quite affordable and in some areas there are some real bargains to be had.

We have an opportunity to buy one of these bargains. I have looked at some rough figures and after we pay the 20% deposit (financing less than 80% to avoid mortgage insurance), the repayments on the amount financed is covered by the net rental income after realestate fee's. In fact it is line ball....return = repayment at its current tenancy.

We are able to cover the repayments if for some reason there is no tenant for a short period of time and also the extra rates etc.

I know the rent received is taxable income and from my understanding all associated costs in regards to maintenance, including interest on the loan are all able to offset the income. Is that correct?

Im looking for lurks and perks and pros and cons from those that have an investment property???

Being Tassie and its location, the value of the property most likely wont go up a great deal over the next decade or so, so for us it is about having someone else pay off what should turn into another means of financing retirement.

Any advice?? Thanks in advance for any input.
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Offline poidda

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Re: Owning an Investment Property
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2016, 11:19:11 AM »
Yes, I've had a couple for a decade or so now.  We bought them when we returned from OS as we didn't pay super for 8 years.  It's a bit of extra self super for us so hopefully will never need the pension.

You are correct.  Interest, council rates, all expenses along with depreciation is all deductible from your income. 

Use a mortgage broker to structure the loan(s) and maximise your borrowings so you can deduct as much as possible.  Capitalise all the costs of buying.  Legal fees, stamp duty, building inspections etc etc.  Put the 20% deposit on your own home loan if you have one rather than the investment loan.  Once you pay down the Investment loan, you can never redraw on it.  The ATO doesn't like that.

Be prepared for interest rates going north.  You might be able to cover expenses now, but what if they hit 9% again or more?

Keep good tenants happy.  Don't be greedy and up the rent too much.  A good tenant paying less is worth so much more than a crap tenant and/or no tenant.

Offline DannyG

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Re: Owning an Investment Property
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2016, 11:32:16 AM »

Use a mortgage broker to structure the loan(s) and maximise your borrowings so you can deduct as much as possible.  Capitalise all the costs of buying.  Legal fees, stamp duty, building inspections etc etc.  Put the 20% deposit on your own home loan if you have one rather than the investment loan.  Once you pay down the Investment loan, you can never redraw on it.  The ATO doesn't like that.

Be prepared for interest rates going north.  You might be able to cover expenses now, but what if they hit 9% again or more?

Keep good tenants happy.  Don't be greedy and up the rent too much.  A good tenant paying less is worth so much more than a crap tenant and/or no tenant.

We do use a mortgage broker, he is a miracle man. I cant get into it here, nor would I want to, but what our broker has done for us over the last 12 months when everyone else said we were mad is amazing.

Are you suggesting we pay the 'deposit money' off our current mortgage and finance the rental property as high as we can (which would mean paying mortgage insurance if it is financed separately)?? What would be the advantage of this besides the tax advantage on the interest paid?

You make a good point in regards to the interest rates, the one thing we have on our side is that we are not talking large sums of money. It is cheap realestate in a small Tassie town. I could stop buying take away coffee and almost afford the repayments with that saving alone  :cheers:

I agree about the tenants and not being greedy.

Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.

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Offline poidda

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Re: Owning an Investment Property
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2016, 11:41:03 AM »
Yeah I can't remember what we did with regards to mortgage insurance.  I believe we got away with paying it, but it is a good while ago.

Offline corndog

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Re: Owning an Investment Property
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2016, 11:52:33 AM »
Not sure if an accountant can give financial advice, has to be a financial advisor, is a legal thing. Remember they make their money from you. If your after capital growth over years then location is a big factor. If your property doesn't grow then you don't make much. Take out capital gains tax and you get less. If you pay it off and live off the rent expect no pension as the government screw you there. You could do the place up  whilst renting it and claim the costs, some cost might be done as depreciation. I have a few, not all do as well as others. Would I buy another? In the right spot at the right price yes, at my age now no.  Get the advice, think over it and good luck.

Offline DannyG

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Re: Owning an Investment Property
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2016, 12:15:46 PM »
Not sure if an accountant can give financial advice, has to be a financial advisor, is a legal thing. Remember they make their money from you. If your after capital growth over years then location is a big factor. If your property doesn't grow then you don't make much. Take out capital gains tax and you get less. If you pay it off and live off the rent expect no pension as the government screw you there. You could do the place up  whilst renting it and claim the costs, some cost might be done as depreciation. I have a few, not all do as well as others. Would I buy another? In the right spot at the right price yes, at my age now no.  Get the advice, think over it and good luck.

Thanks. We were thinking more along the lines of having a tenant pay of the mortgage and in 20 years time sell it to supplement our retirement income. Even if it didnt grow, which is unlikely, but it would still give us several years of income from the proceeds of the sale that we wouldnt have had otherwise. Or at least that was the line of thinking....maybe reality is quite different.

Im not certain I will get a pension when I retire. I am 46 years old so I have a lot of working life left yet. No doubt Ill have to be 70 to even get a pension and then the means test in year 2040 will most likely stop me getting a pension anyway, I could be wrong though. Thanks for the food for thought.
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Offline Pete79

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Re: Owning an Investment Property
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2016, 12:26:14 PM »
I have recently moved back into our property after having it as a rental for the last few years.
This is our family home that we intend to keep for a very long time, it was a work commitment that dragged us away for a little while and technically turned it into an investment property. So my experience is not going to be the same as yours.

There where a couple of points that I have taken out of our short experience as landlords.

Firstly;
Our situation was always going to be temporary, I signed a 1 year contract, verbally agreed with the boss to say for 3 years and privately agreed with the wife that we'd do 5 years max.
So with that in mind we massively negatively geared. And I mean massive, our account said on paper we'd struggle to survive, but our returns should be big.

The reality was our returns where  only marginally above what we got when we lived in the house. I did a bit of negotiating with my boss and stretched a few loopholes to get a bit of extra cash and make the move worth our while, but it was hardly the money spinner we expected it to be.

Secondly;
Yes you can claim repairs and expenses, but these are usually just repairs that need to be done anyway and hardly add value to the property.

And finally;
Look after good tenants!!!!
We only had 2 different tenants in 5 years. Every time they move there is more damage.
We did have to change agents 3 times in 5 years. 2 agents closed their doors and 1 was a joke. The final agent was OK, slightly bias towards the tenants, but did a fair job in the end I thought.

So what I took from my personal experience;
I would never leave my family house in the hands of others again. The financial returns where not worth the hassles.

If we where in the financial situation to get a true investment property in the future, I would do it. But at least now I would do it knowing the reality of the returns we can expect.

Offline Rodt

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Re: Owning an Investment Property
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2016, 12:27:45 PM »
Mate it might pay to consider using your super if you have or are thinking about setting up a SMSF.

I have had an investment property for about 10 years and when I got around to setting up my SMSF my financial planner said very clearly do not buy anymore properties outside of the super fund. Not for everyone of course but at reduced tax rates it may help in the future in regards to any capital gains losses.

As has been said need to get a good planner to outline all the pros and cons

Offline chester ver2.0

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Re: Owning an Investment Property
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2016, 02:15:59 PM »
Rent cannot just cover morgatage payments it also needs to have a buffer built in for maintenance and repairs. Speaking from a tennants perspective there is nothing worse than a landlord who bitches every time something has to be fixed and cant get it in their head that a 15 year old water heater and 10 year old oven will have to be replaced.

I would also look for a property with minimal or no yard as this adds another maintenance complexity



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Re: Owning an Investment Property
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2016, 02:37:50 PM »
Quote from: Pete79
And finally;
Look after good tenants!!!!
We only had 2 different tenants in 5 years. Every time they move there is more damage.

Agree.. If your lucky to find good ones, kiss them weekly.
Mate of mine has had the same tenants for over 25 years... Lawns manicured, house always well looked after, windows washed, so he went the extra mile looking after them for so long.

The killer was they had kids, their kids became teenage scrotes... burnouts, broken Shitbox cars rusting away in front garden, yards became weedfests, and constant complaints from neighbours and the cops made the hard decision for him.
Second people he had in their for something like 8 (under 10) years, and they moved out on their own, so he has just moved back from Perth to the house to be closer to his olds...

So as said, good tenants = Gold.
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Offline Paddler Ed

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Re: Owning an Investment Property
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2016, 03:00:44 PM »
How are you defining bargain? Cheaper than _________?

There is a reason things are priced how they are; do you know the area well enough to decide you are getting a bargain as opposed to a property in the cheaper end of town because it is next to _______? The road I live in bisects town, one end is near an interesting area, the other is industrial. In the middle there are properties at $1m, either end? $250-350k. Are those bargains in comparison to the middle section? Well, they are cheaper and they are typically owned by older people (those in their 60's+) who are now downsizing as the kids have moved out. BUT there are a number of cheaper rentals around them at one end in particular, and the tenants there are some of the ones mentioned above to avoid...

How long are you looking to own for? Can you see the property still being desirable in that time frame with minimal work? Here we have rentals that look like they haven't been touched since they were built, and they still ask strong money for them (great for the Landlord) but there are some modernised places that are available for the same money... which do you think attract the better tenants?

I've lived in rentals for a good chunk of the last 18 years, and I will always chose somewhere that has a decent kitchen (something from this decade) and a reasonable bathroom (again this decade is good, but generally tidy and not going to give me grief is always good). We also have laminate floor in our place, and that has been problematic for some of the trades (plumber made a mess of fixing the taps and the floor boards swelled up and then recovered) but is pretty good for us.

Offline Bullant4x4

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Re: Owning an Investment Property
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2016, 03:29:05 PM »
landlord who bitches every time something has to be fixed and cant get it in their head that a 15 year old water heater and 10 year old oven will have to be replaced.

You sound like a ball breaker of a tenant.  ;D
Nothing wrong with a 10yr old oven, mine is from 91 and still stand :) I did replace the hot water service 9yrs ago.
Kitchen is 1960 and has that homely feeling  :D
Just looking into another property.

Offline Swannie

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Re: Owning an Investment Property
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2016, 03:30:55 PM »
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Offline Swannie

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Re: Owning an Investment Property
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2016, 03:32:42 PM »
If you do it make sure you  get a current valuation ( capital gains tax) purposes & a depreciation schedule created  bith 100% tax deductible of course
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Offline tk421

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Re: Owning an Investment Property
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2016, 03:50:41 PM »
not a financial advisor and treat this a highly as you would advice from a random fat bloke in the pub:

•   Yes, rent is taxable income.
•   Most expenses associated with the property (landlords insurance, trips to inspect the property, repairs and maintenance, agents fees etc etc) can be claimed as deductions against the investment.
•   Definitely get yourself a surveyor’s depreciation schedule. It allows you to claim internal items like ovens and carpets (Plant and Equipment) and on the construction costs of the building itself, e.g. concrete and brickwork (Building Allowance). If you buy a new or off the plan property the amount you can claim is much higher than established dwellings. If your property was built after July 1985 you will be able to claim both Building Allowance and Plant and Equipment depreciation.  Prior to this date, and you can only claim depreciation on Plant and Equipment. But it will still be worthwhile.
•   For ease of mind just get a good agent so you don’t have to deal with all the issues. You just authorise the repairs etc. If there are any issues they deal with it… We had a set of tenants that drilled 1" holes through the wall to fit their own Foxtel dish without permission. Lots of other minor damage so we terminated their lease. We were having the place repainted and they came back slashed the tires on the painters vehicle and smashed the headlights. Agents sorted it all out, so no stress for us. Not the brightest bunch, as they went and boasted to the agent that they'd done it. It made finding the culprits easy!
•   Don’t be a douche to your tenants and keep the good ones. Our current tenants are awesome and keep the place immaculate so we've been more accommodating to some of their requests than others. Its a two way street.
•   Do get landlords insurance. It protects you and it is tax deductable and you’re probably not covered under normal household insurance.
•   Get good advice...

In your case I presume you’re looking for capital growth by covering your costs with rent and hoping over the life of the property it appreciates in value.  Which over 10-20 years is a reasonable assumption. But its always a gamble.  During the GFC my mother’s house dropped in value by 40%...  Investment properties around Qld took a big hit a few years ago. Some of the properties on Magnetic Island dropped 70%. Its a unique case but a good example of what can happen. 

So are you expecting your growth to be greater than what you could get simply by putting the money in an index tracker fund returning 4-10% a year, re-investing the dividends in the fund and leaving it for 20 years for example? What are the growth projections for the area you are looking at? It may be cheap to buy but are you going to experience any growth in the property? Is it in a location that has a good supply of tenants? Lots to consider.
 
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Offline ewoksta

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Re: Owning an Investment Property
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2016, 03:55:44 PM »
If you have some equity in your existing property you can use that as collateral security. This usually avoids mortgage insurance and you can borrow 100% plus costs. Just be aware that you will either need the cash upfront ( which you will get back n settlement) or exchange with a deposit guarantee. Not sure of the rules in Tassy, but in NSW you can pay the stamp duty at the time of settlement along with other costs.

Happy hunting!!

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Offline Andy_Q

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Re: Owning an Investment Property
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2016, 04:10:04 PM »
I would recommend a property near public transport and or employment. The tenants you want need to go to work every day. Just saying.


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Offline GBC

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Re: Owning an Investment Property
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2016, 04:56:12 PM »
I would recommend borrowing the same amount as the house to invest in a managed portfolio. Invest in a building portfolio if you like houses, by all means. No I'm not a planner, yes I have had rental houses. I am a builder and still don't have rentals anymore.

Offline rotare

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Re: Owning an Investment Property
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2016, 05:04:03 PM »
Negative gearing will only work if your overall expenses exceed your rental income.  From my experience you'd have to buy something really really cheap and have good rental returns to even hope of covering the mortgage payments.  However, typically where houses are cheap it generally follows that the going rate for rent is cheap too, otherwise most renters would become home buyers themselves.

Nothing is really free, so a good return at tax time is usually because you've had to shell out for expenses during the year. You'll only get 'back' what you've spent.

Be prepared and have the capacity to pay for replacement of household items (with 5 minutes of notice from tenants) for things like hot water services, ovens, along with services from plumbers, electricians etc.  Over the years we've had several situations where the tenants have stopped paying the rent for various excuses.  Sometimes they tell you, some times they don't bother.  Either way the bank won't care about issues you have with getting your rent but will still expect their mortgage payments from you on time.  You need to consider if you could cover the mortgage for days, weeks, months whilst you chase the tenant for outstanding payments.

It's easy to think you can just kick someone out of your property if they don't pay the rent or aren't looking after the place as agreed.  Unfortunately it's not as simple as that and you need to follow a process, which can be tedious, otherwise as ironic as it sounds you could find yourself in trouble with the law.   

Decide whether you manage the place yourself, or get an agent to do it.  We've had a terrible run with agents that have let tenants run riot, run the places down, not chased for rent etc, so for us they have been a waste of money.  We now manage our investment properties ourselves.  It's more work for us but at least we feel we are in control.

Be prepared for your rental to be damaged over time and don't expect people to live like you do.  No point in having any emotional or sentimental attachment to any property you buy.  People simply won't treat the place like it was their own and care factor (as a generalisation) is pretty low by tennats.  Don't expect too much sympathy from the rental tribunal either if you ever have to go down that path, as they generally err on the side of the renter. 

If you plan for a worst case scenario and end up with a decent tenant that looks after the place, is clean and pays the rent on time then it's not a bad experience.  If you can reduce your taxable income along the way whilst getting some appreciation on the property then you're winning, but I'd suggest property investment is very much a long term investment for the best gains and benefits.

 

Offline WilSurf

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Re: Owning an Investment Property
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2016, 05:21:29 PM »
We have an investment property for over 5 years.
It s managed by a property agent which takes all the hassles away.
The current tenants are in the house for 3 years and we have had no issues.
As said before, most expenses are tax deductable.
However I see it as an investment for the future.
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Offline Swannie

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Re: Owning an Investment Property
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2016, 05:22:59 PM »
For me the investment properties are about handing them to the kids with a mortgage at today's numbers not in 10 years time

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Offline GeoffA

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Re: Owning an Investment Property
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2016, 05:49:39 PM »
We're going through the process of removing a tenant ATM. Apparently, rent is optional.... ::) ::)

Weeds are about fence-high in the back yard, but at least they're not knocking the place about.
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Offline gronk

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Re: Owning an Investment Property
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2016, 05:51:53 PM »
We have an investment property for over 5 years.
It s managed by a property agent which takes all the hassles away.
The current tenants are in the house for 3 years and we have had no issues.
As said before, most expenses are tax deductable.
However I see it as an investment for the future.

I've had one for 10yrs now.....mine must be labled wrong, because I can't see the investment part of it ? Worth bugger all more than I paid, 10 yrs on....yep, right on the coast, but a dead area for the property market. No matter when I sell, it will be a loss in real terms for the amount of money I have spent.

At least I have good tenants.
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Offline nab

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Re: Owning an Investment Property
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2016, 06:18:01 PM »
We have a duplex in a low socio-economic area. Had mostly good tenants and a couple of bad ones. We find the problem with having a property in one of these areas is that the tenants only stay for 12-18 months then bugger off. Then you need to repaint/repair/clean the whole place properly otherwise prospective tenants don't look twice at the place. Then the re-letting fees, inspection fees etc etc all add up. Then trying to find a suitable new tenant is another battle, lots of people with no previous rental history (ie the trashed someone else's place under another name). We repair/replace anything broken as soon as the tenant complains so I don't think we are the problem haha!

Again, it's only a tax benefit if you are earning enough to be paying lots of tax in the first place!!!! No free lunches in the rental game...
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Offline DannyG

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Re: Owning an Investment Property
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2016, 06:19:26 PM »
Thanks very much for the replies. I'm at work atm and have another busy day tomorrow so I'll reply properly on the weekend.
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