Running house appliances off a generator.

[terravista]

In preparation for the storm season I am looking at connecting a portable generator to the house to run appliances. At this stage I don't care about what size I need, that can be determined before I buy one.
The simple version is to run leads to different items as required, but that seems like a pain trying to select which item should have priority,  like watching cricket vs using hair crimpers.
Connecting the gennie direct to the house seems to have a few main variants.
A dedicated plug in point that stops backfeeding the grid.
A separate circuit that gets turned on manually after manually turning off any other breakers.
A "Death Lead" with 3 pin male plugs both ends, and no. And no, I have no intention of doing that.
There was a few other variants around but the search started looking at America and England, so I stopped looking.
With the wide ranging collection of skills on this site, does anyone have a guide to what methods are worth looking at, and what prices would be fair?
This house is outside Rockhampton, so any city based prices would need to be bumped up by 200% or so because the local tradies want to charge heaps based on the "I could get $180 000 working in the mines" inflationary tool. Must be an app they use because it's pretty common.
If this has been done before, just a simple link to the post is fine, but I did search without luck.
Thanks
Ian

[Joff]

In preparation for the storm season I am looking at connecting a portable generator to the house to run appliances. At this stage I don't care about what size I need, that can be determined before I buy one.
The simple version is to run leads to different items as required, but that seems like a pain trying to select which item should have priority,  like watching cricket vs using hair crimpers.
Connecting the gennie direct to the house seems to have a few main variants.
A dedicated plug in point that stops backfeeding the grid.
A separate circuit that gets turned on manually after manually turning off any other breakers.
A "Death Lead" with 3 pin male plugs both ends, and no. And no, I have no intention of doing that.
There was a few other variants around but the search started looking at America and England, so I stopped looking.
With the wide ranging collection of skills on this site, does anyone have a guide to what methods are worth looking at, and what prices would be fair?
This house is outside Rockhampton, so any city based prices would need to be bumped up by 200% or so because the local tradies want to charge heaps based on the "I could get $180 000 working in the mines" inflationary tool. Must be an app they use because it's pretty common.
If this has been done before, just a simple link to the post is fine, but I did search without luck.
Thanks
Ian

Geez, you must lose power lots to warrant that. Set up with a UPS system so you don't even need to get up off the couch when it happens. Just need a big battery, a big invertor, an electric start geni of adequate size and some funky switch gear. Should be able to do it for 40 or 50k 

or run a lead to a fridge and rope light down the hall 

[Mace]

It can be done, we used to have an input on the main board in our business to allow fridges, petrol pumps and cash handling systems to operate. Was just a 20Amp input I think, with an isolator switch.

Would not cater for refrigerated  A/C units, not enough initial boot to start compressor off. Our sparky reckoned you would need 3 or 4 KVA for that, not sure how correct he was tho.

[JRABS]

I have had a changeover switch fitted to my house in Mackay with a 15A weatherproof input next to the switchboard.
I did this and got my shed powered with a couple of GPO's for around $350 and that was at the height of the mining boom so its not all that expensive to go this way.
As I was working out of town at the time it was much easier for the wife to set up the genset this way if needed.

[IanS]

We have a three way switch, mains, off, auxiliary with a 15 amp socket. You just have to remember to turn off high draw items like cooktops ovens and hot water boosters before you switch over to the genset.

[Muckinhell]

As JRABS said but you can also have the sparky seperate the circuits so when you switch to the geny only say one gpo circuit and a light circuit will have power, so you can still have a ceiling fan on or 2 and your fridge first and foremost anything else would have to be dependant on size of your appliance you want to run and size of the geny, i know my old honda ex7 barly runs our fridge by itself due to start up current.

[Cruiser 105Tvan]

Caravan type wall mounted input socket for 240V. mounted onto a plastic power junction box.
Power from the socket goes to an ELCB and then distributed via a separate wiring from the mains to the appliances, fridge etc.
You'll need to decide what you want running and work out the power needed, to decide on the Genset. 5Kva. would meet most needs for a house.
Forget having an electric cook-top/oven, they draw way tooooo much power.
Place should ideally be on Natural/Town/bottled gas, which will still be supplied during power outages.
Having an instant hot water system on gas would be an advantage
Your electrician will need to sign off on all this too(because it's 240V.).
Probably find any switches may need to be Double pole too.  Switch both Active and Neutral, double the cost.
Let us know how it works out, you will help others probably.

[terravista]

Thanks guys
This is my daughters house just South of Rockhampton and this is her first year in the place. After Cyclone Marcia last year she is anticipating more cyclones and wants to NOT do another week without power when it happens again. At least last time she was in a rental place with not as much to lose.
We have our eyes on a 8kva diesel generator, it's a pity the 150kg is gonna be much to shove in the back for camping so we have to stick with the Waeco. We just want something she can roll out of the shed, plug it in and do whatever switching is needed.  It also helps that the current cooker is gas.
Cheers

[Rumpig]

Is it really worth getting it done for how often she'd realistically use it?. My 2kva Honda genny runs my household fridge and the tv fine (did so when we lost power in the Brisbane flood), and a gas cooker does meals...so the major emergency stuff is covered (easy enough to also plug work lamps in for lighting at night and not run tv). I guess if she needs to run water pumps and bio cycle etc it might be worth looking into, but the chances of her needing to use such a set up you are looking at would be minimal wouldn't it, I mean how often do places get hit repeatably by cyclones?

[rags]

Something like this will do it.
http://www.cat.com/en_US/products/new/power-systems/electric-power-generation/diesel-generator-sets/18488263.html

 I've got a mate who picked up a gen-set powered by Cat in an auction for $1500. Came from a Telstra country site . He had a property that suffered power issues from poor supply and so he could run his AC in summer, Wired it into his house With an isolation switch to stop the mains supply. He jokes that he helps his neighbours out in blackouts by turning his tennis court lights on

[Spada]

Masters have got 40% off their gensets at the moment. The store I was in today had a few left (I didn't take too much notice of brand or price, but one of them had a 3000 in the model, so I guess 3kva in size). Don't know if there is a masters in rocky though, but 3kva should keep the essentials going ? I cant offer any advice on connecting it to a house.

[terravista]

Is it really worth getting it done for how often she'd realistically use it?. My 2kva Honda genny runs my household fridge and the tv fine (did so when we lost power in the Brisbane flood), and a gas cooker does meals...so the major emergency stuff is covered (easy enough to also plug work lamps in for lighting at night and not run tv). I guess if she needs to run water pumps and bio cycle etc it might be worth looking into, but the chances of her needing to use such a set up you are looking at would be minimal wouldn't it, I mean how often do places get hit repeatably by cyclones?

Yep, water supply is by pump as well as waste water disposal. It is 140 acres and the animals are watered by a pump fed tank also. With power off for a few days  the wasted food is covered by insurance after a long fight, but the excess on 2 occasions will cover a half decent generator

[Rumpig]

Yep, water supply is by pump as well as waste water disposal. It is 140 acres and the animals are watered by a pump fed tank also. With power off for a few days  the wasted food is covered by insurance after a long fight, but the excess on 2 occasions will cover a half decent generator

yep fair enough...easy for me to go without such a set being i don't need half that stuff and also have plenty of 12v camping gear to get us by, but then i considered the inlaws property when we were flooded in there and lost power for several days, and things like the toilet system and running water pumps certainly becomes a hassle....hence why that was thrown into my reply.

[Cruiser 105Tvan]

Thanks guys
This is my daughters house just South of Rockhampton and this is her first year in the place. After Cyclone Marcia last year she is anticipating more cyclones and wants to NOT do another week without power when it happens again. At least last time she was in a rental place with not as much to lose.
We have our eyes on a 8kva diesel generator, it's a pity the 150kg is gonna be much to shove in the back for camping so we have to stick with the Waeco. We just want something she can roll out of the shed, plug it in and do whatever switching is needed.  It also helps that the current cooker is gas.
Cheers

Does she have to roll it into the open?  Be really noisy too.
Can you site the Gen-set so that it's connected to an exterior exhaust?
Help with keeping your sanity too, as well as the neighbours.
Make it easier to connect the power lead to as well.

[wetduck]

have a receipt from Rexel electrical supplies;
15amp caravan inlet $32.88
3 position change over switch $71.91
plus heavy duty extension cord

[terravista]

Does she have to roll it into the open?  Be really noisy too.
Can you site the Gen-set so that it's connected to an exterior exhaust?
Help with keeping your sanity too, as well as the neighbours.
Make it easier to connect the power lead to as well.

The generator can live in the equipment shed only 8 metres from the meterbox, so the noise would be pretty well dampened, and the nearest neighbour is about 1 kilometre away.
Cheers

[Steffo1]

This is our set up for our  6 kva genny. We are on tank water & rely on electricity for all house water.
THe 6 easily keeps power to our two full size fridges, large upright freezer, hot water system, house water & lights, oh & the Engel with emergency fluids in it 
We normally cook on the gas barbie anyway so that's not an issue.
Our neighbours are also a long way off.

[Pete79]

This is our set up for our  6 kva genny. We are on tank water & rely on electricity for all house water.
THe 6 easily keeps power to our two full size fridges, large upright freezer, hot water system, house water & lights, oh & the Engel with emergency fluids in it 
We normally cook on the gas barbie anyway so that's not an issue.
Our neighbours are also a long way off.

Thanks for that.
Do you have single phase or 3 phase supply?

I have 3 phase and our house is wired with each phase running a different circuit.
It just happens that our water pump (we're also on tanks) and our oven are on the same phase. This phase also happened to be the one with a dodgy mains on the street and would drop out all the time. We had sooo many nights with no water until they fixed those mains.

Ideally I would like to set our board up the similar to yours, but I'm pretty sure it's a pretty big job to rewire ours to run the different circuits off the gene.

Anyway I have to redo my board to get the 3 phase out to the new shed, so might have to include the caravan plug and change over switch in the quote for that job too.

[Steffo1]

Only have 3 phase main to the top shed.
Also, my gennie doesn't have an EVR (voltage regulator) so I don't risk running the 'puter or idiot box during operation but I can live without them for a few days.
Steve

[fractured ranga]

Im a sparky, to wire in a changeover switch and gen input into your board should only run you a few hundred. Do any of it yourself and itll double cos the sparky will have to pull it out and do it again. I dont know any sparky thatll sign off on diy 240v stuff not to mention is dangerous. Dont stuff around with it cos youll kill yourself or someone else. Suicide leads back feed the grid and can kill the blokes trying to fix the mains.
The only real options are pay a sparky to instal a changover switch. Its pretty basic job and should really only take an hr. Or run your genny outside and fees a lead into your house to power what you want. A 5kva genny is good for around 17A (5000×0.8 /230) but it will depend on what appliance youre running anything with a motor or compressor will have a higher start up current ( older acs fridges etc) but talk to your sparky and theyll be able to tell you exactly what you need for your situation.
Seriously though dont mess around with mains. Its one of them things where the consequences are far worse than the benifits. And run your genny outside or you risk carbon dioxide poisoning

[terravista]

Seriously though dont mess around with mains. Its one of them things where the consequences are far worse than the benifits. And run your genny outside or you risk carbon dioxide poisoning

No dramas. I had no plan of doing it myself.
There are heaps of things I will tackle after a bit of research, but mountain climbing, spelunking, pulling tea towels over my head and carrying machete's around Police Stations while humping goats, or 240 volt wiring are a few of the don'ts.
Good to know a 5kva should work with a bit of care is handy.
I did look at a brand new 8kva diesel generator on Ebay for $520. Sounded too good to believe, and the seller having no feedback and offering $13 delivery for a 150kg machine made it look a bit suspect.
I asked them for a phone number as they just happened to list the sale 20km from the house, but I am still waiting for a reply, and the ad has been removed. Go figure. Almost seems like it may have been a scam.
Cheers

[fractured ranga]

You can also go to big especially with deisel genreators. They like to be loaded up. I used to service a lot of hire genreators on mine sites for a major genny mob. They had huge issues with 12kva gennys dying. As they were running big sump pumps the size was needed for startup but then they drew bugger all current. The genny would glaze up and start burning there sump oil and seizing. We ended up dragging out a loas bank with our service gear and bogging the suckers right down to clean them out when we serviced them every 500hrs.

[Symon]

Thanks for that.
Do you have single phase or 3 phase supply?

I have 3 phase and our house is wired with each phase running a different circuit.
It just happens that our water pump (we're also on tanks) and our oven are on the same phase. This phase also happened to be the one with a dodgy mains on the street and would drop out all the time. We had sooo many nights with no water until they fixed those mains.

Ideally I would like to set our board up the similar to yours, but I'm pretty sure it's a pretty big job to rewire ours to run the different circuits off the gene.

Anyway I have to redo my board to get the 3 phase out to the new shed, so might have to include the caravan plug and change over switch in the quote for that job too.

It is a pretty easy job for a sparky to do that.  You can wire up the 3 phase circuits to run off single phase, you just need to make sure you turn off what you don't want run off the gennie.

[pauljygrant]

Just a query about those with solar PV - it needs a grid feed or it switches off.
What happens if you then use your genny to run your house during an outage? Will the solar then turn back on? If so, would the extra power help to compensate for a smaller genny? What happens if the solar generates more power than you are actually using?

[Cruiser 105Tvan]

The Solar panels need power to run.  Even when connected to the grid.
If the Solar feed switches with/to the Gennie Circuit  as you disconnect the mains.
The panels will fire up with the Generator if the circuit is correct.  (resistance through the Generator etc.)
That's why the switch between the mains and Generator must have a Neutral position between (3 Positions)