Author Topic: Recommendations for Forward Folding CT'S  (Read 20456 times)

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Offline Trailseekers

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Recommendations for Forward Folding CT'S
« on: October 04, 2016, 10:28:19 PM »
G'day everyone. I'm new to this forum.

So, over the last few years I've been taking an interest in CT's looking at the merits of different types, brands and models.

The wife and I have decided to upgrade from tent to hard floor camper. After listening to me going on and on about CT's the wife finally relented this week and accepted that it might be time to look at investing in a CT.  :cheers:

However, this arrangement does come with some caveats. The CT has to be brand new, be off-road capable, be priced under $25k, be forward folding and be relatively easy/quick to set up and pack away. We are also limited to a maximum tow weight of 2,200kg, weight is quite significant in our thinking.

I've spent some considerable time now researching the different makes/models of campers. i won't list all of them here because it will just take too long. What I have found however is that the majority of campers that tick many of the boxes for us tend to be from the imported range. The Australian manufactured range does seem to come at a considerable premium.

Based on opinions I read on forums such as this one, I am left slightly concerned by a stigma that seems to be attached to the imported range. Do I have grounds to be concerned? I am not sure. This depends on whose opinion you listen to I suppose. There are many owners of imported CT's who seem to be very happy and enjoying years of trouble free camping. Then there is the argument that these types of campers have unreliable welds/canvas and do not retain their original value in the second-hand market. I can understand to some extent the value depreciation given the stigma around them. However, does anyone have any anecdotal evidence of one of these trailers suffering structural failure?

I have plans to attend the 4WD show scheduled for later this month in Adelaide. In the meantime I have researched a number of trailers in the price range we are looking at. I've visited a few showrooms and kicked a few tyres and what I have found is a very noticeable difference in refinement when you go up slightly in price. We have a few ideas on a couple of models that have caught our interest but we are far from making a final decision on which one.

I could easily go on for much longer giving my opinions on this subject but I am, primarily from a selfish standpoint, on here to read and digest the opinions of others with more knowledge and experience on these things.

I'd be grateful to listen to opinions on Imported Campers and perhaps some recommendations on specific makes and models.

Thanks

Scotty

 

Offline MarkVS

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Re: Recommendations for Forward Folding CT'S
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2016, 01:47:35 AM »
Scotty,
You have mentioned 'hard floor' and 'forward fold'. They are 2 different types.
I don't have one, but I know that Modcon Forward folds (they invented the concept) get quite a wrap and I have dealt with the owner before and they are good to deal with. They have models that will meet your criteria. 

As for the imports, before all the 'discussion' happens, they have a place in the market place. If you know what you are doing, what your are looking for, are realistic in understanding as to how much and hard you are going to use them.
The Modcons have models made in Aus and models mad oversees..and the prices reflects that..but they also control the quality themselves.

I don't know where you are from but have a talk to member Evolution on this forum. He is based in Vic and owns Regional campers that sell Modcon campers or you can contact Modcon in Qld directly.   

I suggest they are a good starting point and brand for you. There are others as well.   

Mark VS

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Offline HEM19X

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Re: Recommendations for Forward Folding CT'S
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2016, 02:57:46 AM »
Scotty,

Certainly poor workmanship has been an issue with imported CT's but as you said, your price range excludes Aussie products such as Modcon. However they do market Ecomate CT's which may suit.

A search here for them would be a good way to get a feel for them.

All the best with the search

Hem
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Offline MarkVS

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Re: Recommendations for Forward Folding CT'S
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2016, 03:18:16 AM »

Certainly poor workmanship has been an issue with imported CT's but as you said, your price range excludes Aussie products such as Modcon. However they do market Ecomate CT's which may suit.


Hem,
I don't work for them, but Modcon have a new Quattro series 3 starting at $20k, and their FF1 model starts at $23k. The other models are in the $50-60k.

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Offline tracker

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Re: Recommendations for Forward Folding CT'S
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2016, 04:10:36 AM »
G'Day... I have an Ecomate / Modcon Forward Fold and have no issues with it at all. We have been to the Tip and back and many other trips. What ever brand you are thinking about just demand good bearings and decent shocks and springs....other than that hook in....as previous comments suggest ...talk to Evo.

                      Cheers Tracker.
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Offline Fathom

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Re: Recommendations for Forward Folding CT'S
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2016, 06:26:15 AM »
I have an evil import. Broadwater Forward Fold. Which has been excellent.
We couldn't be happier with it for the money we paid.
All I would suggest is if possible buy local to you.
(No matter which way you go)
Great concept the forward Fold. Been around a long time.
Always give 100%... Unless you are giving blood.. then it may not go so well...
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Offline Bird

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Re: Recommendations for Forward Folding CT'S
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2016, 06:28:39 AM »
Why *MUST* it be brand new?
-
Click to enlarge

Gone to a new home
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Offline jackriley

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Re: Recommendations for Forward Folding CT'S
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2016, 07:36:31 AM »
I have a Broadwater FF (tare of 1000kg and ATM 1800kg), had it two years now and has been an awesome trailer with nil issues to date. Great after sales service, the trailer is imported but put together in the factory on the Gold Coast.
there ain't nothing wrong with them city lights,
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Offline gutters

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Re: Recommendations for Forward Folding CT'S
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2016, 08:06:35 AM »
Why *MUST* it be brand new?

x2

I know of a really good Aussie made Modcon up for sale that's in your budget... Sorry shameless plug, couldn't help myself...  ;D  ;D ;D ;D
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Offline wilson79

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Re: Recommendations for Forward Folding CT'S
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2016, 08:18:27 AM »
Hi Mate,

I have an Ecomate forward fold and have done many trips trouble free including cape your and the old telegraph track.. All I did to my trailer to prepare for this trip was change the cheap shocks with better Monroe units and remove the steps so the didn't get hung up on any of the steep tracks..

I have a thread in my signature below of some of the things I have done to the trailer..

My Ecomate was one of the units that came out of the Modcon factory. and I can highly recommend them.

In saying that if I was in the market again I would be jumping on Gutters second hand unit as the original Modcons are built like tanks and for the price you are getting a great trailer that new would have been pushing the 40k mark. In fact I have even considered selling my trailer to purchase this unit..
Regards,

Wilson79


My camper, http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=39588.msg711354#msg711354
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My Tug, OCT 2016 VDJ200 VX Landcruiser
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=54907.msg955281#msg955281
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Offline HEM19X

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Re: Recommendations for Forward Folding CT'S
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2016, 10:40:17 AM »
Hem,
I don't work for them, but Modcon have a new Quattro series 3 starting at $20k, and their FF1 model starts at $23k. The other models are in the $50-60k.

Thanks Mark, didn't realise prices had dropped so much, obviously with new models etc....
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Offline corndog

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Re: Recommendations for Forward Folding CT'S
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2016, 04:03:21 PM »
Have a look at Blue Water Campers. I've had good dealings with them, but from their factory in Victoria. Most imported campers are similar to each other. They look to be better than some.
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Offline Trailseekers

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Re: Recommendations for Forward Folding CT'S
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2016, 06:36:37 PM »
Scotty,
You have mentioned 'hard floor' and 'forward fold'. They are 2 different types.

Sorry, you're right I did. I meant to type forward fold.

I have glanced over the Modcon website before, and here in lies my main problem. A lot of the forward fold campers are much of a muchness in terms of specs but quality of finish is another thing. I'm finding from the few tyres I have kicked at the limited amount of showrooms here in Adelaide, I have noticed a difference in refinement with electrical wiring, gas piping, chassis welds, seals etc etc. Seeing them on a website does not give you a feel for the workmanship that's gone into it.

An interstate trip may be on the cards....

Offline Trailseekers

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Re: Recommendations for Forward Folding CT'S
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2016, 07:04:01 PM »
Thanks for all the recommendations. I will certainly add them to my growing list. I had dismissed the Modcon's as it appeared they were a bit pricey but I'll certainly reconsider them at those prices.

Bird asked a valid question, why brand new? This is something else that we have pondered over. I know we can buy much better quality second hand. I have heard of top of the range KK's only a few years old going for 20k. But at the end of the day, we've made this a long term investment and intend to keep the trailer for several years. We are people who do like to buy new and take really good care of things and it's a bit reassuring to know what conditions the trailer has been subjected to during it's life. It's merely a personal preference.

It sounds like a contradiction in a way but we are also looking for something that is also robust and well equipped to get dragged down tracks or along beaches.

I'm loving the forum already, some great ideas on here which are helping to steer me down the right path I think. Thanks everyone.

Offline RonnieQ

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Re: Recommendations for Forward Folding CT'S
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2016, 08:15:48 PM »
I have an Australian made Modcon Imperial and they are definitely a great unit.
It was a no brainer for me when it came time to purchase a forward fold, Modcon was the only choice.
There is nothing on it I dislike they are basic but well thought out and very well engineered.
Probably not ideal for a family of more than three, except the Quattro which is perfect for four.
The Australian made Modcons have a great reputation, only time will tell with their imports, the main thing at stake is their reputation if the imports aren't up to scratch.
There are four Australian made Modcons on gumtree ranging from $19000.00 to $35000.00 all in Queensland also the Modcon factory is there.
If I was in your shoes I think I would be on Gumtree searching Modcon and  planning a quick shopping  trip to Queensland.
You might grab a second hand bargain or sell yourself a new Modcon imported or Australian made.
Best of luck.
Please feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions.
Ronnie Q





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« Last Edit: October 05, 2016, 08:18:22 PM by RonnieQ »
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Offline tryagain

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Re: Recommendations for Forward Folding CT'S
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2016, 09:45:31 PM »
Is this your first camper? if so seriously look at second hand. The main reason being the amount of people who buy new and then realise that one of them doesn't really like going camping or that the camper isn't really the type they want and then sell at a substantial loss seems to be quite high. Whereas people who buy second hand and find them self in the same situation can sell for similar prices, if you look and have time there seems to be plenty of "as new" campers that might satisfy the reasons you want new but also save you some dollars.
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Offline Trailseekers

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Re: Recommendations for Forward Folding CT'S
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2016, 10:11:06 PM »
Thanks Ronnie. I had another look at those Modcons and I have to admit from the pictures they do look well made. The FF1 is on my shortlist of possibles.

Yes this is our first camper but by no means are we new to camping. I understand the logic in buying second hand and I haven't entirely ruled it out. As I've said previously, it's a conscious decision to go new, personal choice if you like. I'm also confident that we are not are not in this for the short term. We are avid campers but we are a bit tired of erecting tents, unloading the car etc. A CT seems the logical next step. If I come across a bargain in the used market we may get swayed, but thus far nothing has grabbed our attention.


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Offline Merts

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Re: Recommendations for Forward Folding CT'S
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2016, 06:57:42 AM »
Scotty,
You have mentioned 'hard floor' and 'forward fold'. They are 2 different types.

I know I'm arguing semantics here, but I would have said that forward fold are a type of hardfloor camper, as are rear fold.

If it folds out and you finish up with a hard floor it's a hard floor camper. If you finish up with a tent floor on the ground, it's a soft floor.
Towing a a National Campers 'Hermit 10' hybrid with an MQ Triton. Previously towed an Outback Campers 'Sturt' softfloor. (PM me if you want to buy the Sturt!)
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Offline Merts

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Re: Recommendations for Forward Folding CT'S
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2016, 07:08:18 AM »
Is this your first camper? if so seriously look at second hand. The main reason being the amount of people who buy new and then realise that one of them doesn't really like going camping or that the camper isn't really the type they want and then sell at a substantial loss seems to be quite high. Whereas people who buy second hand and find them self in the same situation can sell for similar prices, if you look and have time there seems to be plenty of "as new" campers that might satisfy the reasons you want new but also save you some dollars.

I second that^ (in fact it's nearly word for word what I was going to say).

New is always nice, but there does always seem to be plenty of used campers in the market which are only a year or two old and have had very little use.

My experience with campers to date includes buying a soft floor (Sturt) brand new about 12 years ago, which has been great. I've just bought a hybrid which is only 18 months old, and it is pretty much like new. In fact, in some ways it's better than new because the owner has worked with the manufacturer to make a few little improvements. I've saved myself a few dollars and I'm getting a 'good as new' camper.
Towing a a National Campers 'Hermit 10' hybrid with an MQ Triton. Previously towed an Outback Campers 'Sturt' softfloor. (PM me if you want to buy the Sturt!)
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Offline Trailseekers

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Re: Recommendations for Forward Folding CT'S
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2016, 07:20:52 PM »
Look, I'm just going to come out and say it. I have searched on carvansales and gumtree and ebay and others, and I just can't see where the 'justified' bargains can be had for used. Sure, I can save at most a few thousand dollars on a forward fold that is pre-owned but when I'm spending over $20k I (personally) just don't see the value in that. If you offered me a 10 year old Kimberley Kamper (or alike) Hard Floor for $20k, or a quality top of the range brand new import for $22k, I'd take the import everyday of the week. Until someone can tell me what exactly IS wrong with the imports I'm always going to have this view. For example, I have visited Eagle Camper Trailers here in Adelaide and have been shown around the showroom and workshop where they fit-out these imports. The quality of the workmanship is impressive I must admit. I am not affiliated with them by the way. The owner of Eagle, I think his name was Brett or Brent, went to great lengths to reassure me on the China imported chassis. He tells me that his companies reputation rests on these trailers being reliable and up to the harsh Australian conditions. He backs that up with a 7 year warranty on his models and is willing to respond to any issues wherever you may be in Australia.

The Eagle Cherokee at just under $22k is featuring quite high on my list at the moment and I am particularly drawn to them because Eagle is based in in my local city of Adelaide, the after sales seems to be very good.

I read a lot of negative comments about imports, presumably from owners of more expensive Australian manufactured CT's  ;D Until someone can give me a very good reason that makes practical and financial sense I have to admit that I am always leaning towards brand new import. People are simply asking too much for their 5 year old and IMO inferior (specs) trailers. That is my view from what I am seeing on the classifieds etc. Sure, there may be the odd give-away bargains to be had but very rarely do you get the particular model you have had an eye on.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who disagree with me but the truth is I just don't see enough advantages to plump for the used model, especially in the forward fold category. Hybrid and softfloor are a completely different subject and I do see some bargains at the high cost and low cost ends. We'd love a good quality off-road hard roof but the cost for a decent one would be too much of a stretch I feel.

So far these are the campers that are currently sitting highest on our shortlist;

Eagle Cherokee
Skampa Kamper Dingo
Modcon FF1

Admittedly the Skampa and Modcon have not been seen in person yet but look quite impressive value.

Ezytrail's latest Stirling GT FF seemed to be fairly good quality but is extremely heavy at 2250kg ATM. Too heavy.

The Patriot X2 is a bit pricier and not hard floor/forward fold but one we are quite impressed with (or atleast the marketing of it) but we'll reserve judgement until we see one in the flesh as it were. If the X1 were anything of a guide it's going to be a smash. We are concerned that the price tag of the X2 at $28k basic entry-level model brings us close to hybrid/pop-up CT territory there and may be a no-goer for that reason.

I could list a dozen other FF makes and models I've seen at shows or showrooms that I would deem to be of low quality, but some of these companies can get quite sensitive about negative comments...

So, a polite request. Don't just tell me that I should look at second-hand just because I have never owned a CT. Give me a valid reason or opinion why the imports are not up to scratch. Rant over LOL.. I do appreciate all the advice I'm getting and it's interesting to read other threads on this subject.

The Adelaide 4WD show is on later this month and we see if we can pick up a bargain there. Otherwise, we may take a trip interstate to weigh up the other competition.
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Offline tryagain

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Re: Recommendations for Forward Folding CT'S
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2016, 09:24:37 PM »
Sure, I can save at most a few thousand dollars on a forward fold that is pre-owned but when I'm spending over $20k I (personally) just don't see the value in that. If you offered me a 10 year old Kimberley Kamper (or alike) Hard Floor for $20k, or a quality top of the range brand new import for $22k, I'd take the import everyday of the week.

So, a polite request. Don't just tell me that I should look at second-hand just because I have never owned a CT. Give me a valid reason or opinion why the imports are not up to scratch.

Just to clarify I wasn't suggesting an 10yr older something your not looking at but a 1-2yr old something that you are and has only been used a few times.

Admittedly there aren't heaps of used forward folds hitting the market yet that I have seen and if you have been just looking around rAdelaide there probably won't be much on the used market at all.

All things considered go with what's best value for you but just make sure that when comparing new with used you include not just the base price but the base price + the cost of any extras/modifications that you will do that the used one already has.

There are plenty of examples of people on here spending a fair amount of $$$ after the initial purchase to get the "little things" right so that few thousand dollar saving might actually be a lot more.

At the end of the day people are suggesting don't rule out used because over time we have seen plenty of "Near new, only been used a few times" campers ending up selling for a lot less than the replacement cost so are giving their advice to both potentially stop becoming one (they also didn't forsee selling so soon) but also to be able to take advantage of cheaper prices.

Obviously if you can't find what you want in the used market for a good price then new is probably the better option and my advice for you if you go with this option is to go to one of the big shows (probably interstate) where it's easy to compare different models and also normally get a better price.

Happy Hunting.
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Offline BrindleHounds

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Recommendations for Forward Folding CT'S
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2016, 09:40:05 PM »
I have just gone through exactly the same situation mate.

After going to a show to get eyes on all those I had researched online, and more, I ordered a Skamper Kamper Dingo at the show.

Here is the reasoning for my going the Dingo:

http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=49224

But yes you are right. There are noticeable differences in quality at different price points of imported campers.

I think those firms, like Modcon and Skamper, who have Aussie built and imports in their line ups, keep a better eye on the quality of their imported product because if it's not up to scratch it impacts the reputation of the locally built product.

As far as the quality of the Skamper Dingo goes, there is a Skamper Owners Facebook page and folks are towing them to the cape and through the Vic high country with no issues.

I suggest if you can get to a show where they are all on display do it.


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« Last Edit: October 06, 2016, 09:43:32 PM by BrindleHounds »
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Offline marvellous_matt

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Re: Recommendations for Forward Folding CT'S
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2016, 09:51:50 PM »
I don't know what the pricing is, however CUB has a new forward fold.
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Offline cowwee

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Re: Recommendations for Forward Folding CT'S
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2016, 10:20:14 PM »
Look, I'm just going to come out and say it. I have searched on carvansales and gumtree and ebay and others, and I just can't see where the 'justified' bargains can be had for used. Sure, I can save at most a few thousand dollars on a forward fold that is pre-owned but when I'm spending over $20k I (personally) just don't see the value in that. If you offered me a 10 year old Kimberley Kamper (or alike) Hard Floor for $20k, or a quality top of the range brand new import for $22k, I'd take the import everyday of the week. Until someone can tell me what exactly IS wrong with the imports I'm always going to have this view. For example, I have visited Eagle Camper Trailers here in Adelaide and have been shown around the showroom and workshop where they fit-out these imports. The quality of the workmanship is impressive I must admit. I am not affiliated with them by the way. The owner of Eagle, I think his name was Brett or Brent, went to great lengths to reassure me on the China imported chassis. He tells me that his companies reputation rests on these trailers being reliable and up to the harsh Australian conditions. He backs that up with a 7 year warranty on his models and is willing to respond to any issues wherever you may be in Australia.

The Eagle Cherokee at just under $22k is featuring quite high on my list at the moment and I am particularly drawn to them because Eagle is based in in my local city of Adelaide, the after sales seems to be very good.

I read a lot of negative comments about imports, presumably from owners of more expensive Australian manufactured CT's  ;D Until someone can give me a very good reason that makes practical and financial sense I have to admit that I am always leaning towards brand new import. People are simply asking too much for their 5 year old and IMO inferior (specs) trailers. That is my view from what I am seeing on the classifieds etc. Sure, there may be the odd give-away bargains to be had but very rarely do you get the particular model you have had an eye on.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who disagree with me but the truth is I just don't see enough advantages to plump for the used model, especially in the forward fold category. Hybrid and softfloor are a completely different subject and I do see some bargains at the high cost and low cost ends. We'd love a good quality off-road hard roof but the cost for a decent one would be too much of a stretch I feel.

So far these are the campers that are currently sitting highest on our shortlist;

Eagle Cherokee
Skampa Kamper Dingo
Modcon FF1

Admittedly the Skampa and Modcon have not been seen in person yet but look quite impressive value.

Ezytrail's latest Stirling GT FF seemed to be fairly good quality but is extremely heavy at 2250kg ATM. Too heavy.

The Patriot X2 is a bit pricier and not hard floor/forward fold but one we are quite impressed with (or atleast the marketing of it) but we'll reserve judgement until we see one in the flesh as it were. If the X1 were anything of a guide it's going to be a smash. We are concerned that the price tag of the X2 at $28k basic entry-level model brings us close to hybrid/pop-up CT territory there and may be a no-goer for that reason.

I could list a dozen other FF makes and models I've seen at shows or showrooms that I would deem to be of low quality, but some of these companies can get quite sensitive about negative comments...

So, a polite request. Don't just tell me that I should look at second-hand just because I have never owned a CT. Give me a valid reason or opinion why the imports are not up to scratch. Rant over LOL.. I do appreciate all the advice I'm getting and it's interesting to read other threads on this subject.

The Adelaide 4WD show is on later this month and we see if we can pick up a bargain there. Otherwise, we may take a trip interstate to weigh up the other competition.
Heyya mate,
I own an Eagle Dakota hard floor camper. We have had it for 18months now.
Overall it has been good, but there have been a few issues.
The brakes have been my biggest....the Chinese quality was pretty poor...I had to replace the drums with some alco ones...heaps better.
There were a lot of sharp edges on the chrome bits, the water tap is not working properly, the water pumps are extremely noisy as well! No battery charger came with it...only Anderson plug so had to put a 240v charger in it.
The other thing is it is extremely heavy...over 1500kg empty...that puts it in the top trailer rego in NSW...so very expensive!
It has suited us well...but would go elsewhere in the future.
Thanks

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

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Offline Lori

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Re: Recommendations for Forward Folding CT'S
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2016, 09:35:11 AM »
Generally speaking I don't think there is anything wrong with an import trailer - you just need to do your due diligence. But in saying that, sometimes things you dont even think about become an issue.

I own a lifestyle walkthru camper, this was lifestyles import camper and my parents own an mdc FF.

My parents have had a fair amount of issues with their camper, alot of it came down to a lack of (none existent) quality control and followed up by mdc's no cares given, slap in the face customer service.

My experience with lifestyle was different, they always followed up and tried to be helpful and unlike my parents camper didnt get given to me with 5 existing obvious faults.

However......... this one came as a surprise to me;
My brakes needed replacing, so off to the mechanic it went. Should have been easy, should have been able to pick it up the next day but it turns out that the axle and hub were a very uncommon size and parts didnt exist. The mechanic tracked it down as coming off a 4WD that was only manufactured and distributed in america and that to get the parts i would need to get the entire section shipped over and then strip it down for parts. It was going to cost $900 to get the parts and if we ever needed new brake drums again then we would be in the same situation. We ended up changing out the entire axle and putting on new hubs - it was cheaper and if we ever needed spare parts then they were a standard size now.

My parents had the exact same issue this year, only instead of full axle and leaf suspension they have independent. When they contacted MDC, they were told no we dont have spare parts and wont be getting any. They had to approach fair trading who then contacted mdc who finally agreed to source the spare part but it would take 8+ weeks to get it in the country. They had it at the mechanic who had an engineer look at it and took it to a specialist trailer place to have a look in the hopes of coming up with a solution (this was while mdc were being difficult to deal with) but in the end they all agreed that unless mdc can supply the spare part the only option would be that the entire suspension would need replacing which would come in the thousands.

What mdc actually said was that they buy parts by the container load and once used up then thats it. Which backs up what my mechanic told me a year previous which is alot of import campers buy parts by the container load eg) when a company is overstocked it will sell off parts in bulk cheap. so the import campers manufacturers buy them, use them and then move onto the next container with little or no thought or care as to whether the parts will be available here in Australia if something goes wrong.

Moral of the story - check the suspension of the camper your interested in buying is regular Aus size and that spare parts will be readily available if you need them.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 09:38:07 AM by Lori »
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