Here's a question from left field - South Africa

[Joff]

No, I'm not about to realise a bucket list dream of driving the Cruiser the length of the big continent, unfortunately. But I have just been told I'm to take over our business dealings in SA and Namibia..

With all the talented and traveled folk on here I figure someone may have some experience so, anyone here traveled to South Africa for business?? J'burg and Cape Town mainly but there are some other places I'll need to go like Windhoek in Namibia..

 

[D4D]

Myswag member 'dragonfly' will be able to help, he's born and bred SAF.

[Bird]

Didn't Ron Moon do a book on his travels through there? I know it was on the interwebs

[Joff]

Didn't Ron Moon do a book on his travels through there? I know it was on the interwebs

Yeah he did and I could talk to him but he was travelling the country regions, not spending time in the big cities trying to get around.

[pinarelloman]

I have been to Capetown and Joburg a couple of times. Capetown is quite safe just like being at home, Joburg not safe at all. Bad things happen even in daylight. Observe the normal things like withdrawing money and not being obvious about having valuables etc.
Don't leave nice expensive things laying on the back seat, as the drink and sunglasses sellers at traffic lights may target you. I keep camera etc in the boot and have had no problems. Joburg city is not safe to walk around at night.

[Joff]

I have been to Capetown and Joburg a couple of times. Capetown is quite safe just like being at home, Joburg not safe at all. Bad things happen even in daylight. Observe the normal things like withdrawing money and not being obvious about having valuables etc.
Don't leave nice expensive things laying on the back seat, as the drink and sunglasses sellers at traffic lights may target you. I keep camera etc in the boot and have had no problems. Joburg city is not safe to walk around at night.

This is what I have heard. I was told to let my contacts in Joburg choose my accommodation and get them to arrange the transfers to and from AP etc.

I Guess I'll take my Glock and numchukkers  with me 

[rokster72]

Ex- South African myself.. feel free to PM, or ask questions and I'll answer in the forum..

[tonywatto]

Hi Joff,
I have worked in Joburg a few times.
If you can stay at Sandon. I've always stayed at the holiday inn. They can arrange airport transfers for you.
I've driven from there to Kruger national park a few times with no issues. As always stay vigilant.
Cheers
Tony.

[cruiser 91]

Maybe include a AKA insurance policy.

[rokster72]

Some thoughts..

South Africa is NOTHING like Australia. Don't expect it. Don't let your guard down.. even if it looks safe, civilised and friendly - it probably isn't. having said that.. millions of people live there, go about their day to day business, and survive, just like we do over here.

It's difficult to share a lifetime's thoughts, knowledge, prejudices and experiences in text.. but I'll try.. also please keep in mind, although I'm not trying to be racist, 90% of the threat is from non-white people..

Remember, your typical black South African is dirt poor.. poorer than you can imagine. Going to jail is an upgrade in lifestyle for him.. it means he'll sleep warm, and have 2 meals a day. In other words.. they literally have NOTHING to loose. Also, the police and justice system is fundamentally corrupt and overworked.. 90%  of crimes will never be solved, of those where someone is apprehended, dockets will go missing, witnesses will stop caring, and the system will loose them somewhere.. it is only a fraction of a fraction that actually see the inside of a courtroom, or the inside of a jail.. again.. it boils down to.. they have nothing to be scared of, nothing to fear... if they want what you have, they'll take it. Almost always with more violence than you can imagine. Add to this a well developed hatred and mistrust of anyone white.. and you have a whole heap of fun.

Just to confuse the issue.. you have 1000's of law abiding black citizens that would love to just go about their business. They're friendly and caring just like anyone else in any other country.

So.. Sandton is in general probably the safest place to stay. The Holiday Inn is good, but there are a number of other hotels just as nice. A couple are right next to the Sandton City shopping complex - allowing you to go shop without going out into the streets.. maybe something worth thinking about. Having said that.. no point staying in Sandton if your work is 30kms away.. feel free to PM your address and I'll give you my opinion..

Don't go out at night.. not unless you're accompanied by locals.. personally.. I'd still stay home..
Don't take anything with you that you want to keep. Be prepared to loose everything.. watches, rings, jewellery, phones, cameras, wallets, credit cards, laptops, tablets etc..
Do get hold of an American Express card. For the simple reason, if your wallet gets stolen, Amex is probably the best in getting a new card to you ASAP. Often times within 24 hours. If you get a charge card.. so much better.. then you don't have to stress immediately about the cost of replacing what needs replacing.
Do let the locals organise your transport - if you have to rent a car.. go for something invisible.. don't drive a Merc or a BMW.. you'll stand out as a target !

Cape Town.. although CT is heaps better than Jo'burg.. it's still South Africa.. the difference is that the real poor areas in Cape Town are further away from the shopping / tourist areas than Jo'burg.. so the problem is not as visible.

Windhoek - what a lovely little city. I love the place.. all of Namibia is great. Do put the effort in to drive to Luderitz / Swakopmund. Go see the Etosha pans, and the desert elephants..

 Finally.. go look on youtube or liveleak.com.. search for crime South Africa. .and watch some of the clips. Louis Theroux made a great documentary..

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xycnjl_law-and-disorder-in-johannesburg_lifestyle
	Small | Large

Watch that.. just to get some idea of what to expect..

If you're in Perth and want to pop over for a Braai ( South African BBQ ), and a chat, feel free..

Please stay safe.. it's a great country.. pity about the people.

[Joff]

Some thoughts..

South Africa is NOTHING like Australia. Don't expect it. Don't let your guard down.. even if it looks safe, civilised and friendly - it probably isn't. having said that.. millions of people live there, go about their day to day business, and survive, just like we do over here.

It's difficult to share a lifetime's thoughts, knowledge, prejudices and experiences in text.. but I'll try.. also please keep in mind, although I'm not trying to be racist, 90% of the threat is from non-white people..

Remember, your typical black South African is dirt poor.. poorer than you can imagine. Going to jail is an upgrade in lifestyle for him.. it means he'll sleep warm, and have 2 meals a day. In other words.. they literally have NOTHING to loose. Also, the police and justice system is fundamentally corrupt and overworked.. 90%  of crimes will never be solved, of those where someone is apprehended, dockets will go missing, witnesses will stop caring, and the system will loose them somewhere.. it is only a fraction of a fraction that actually see the inside of a courtroom, or the inside of a jail.. again.. it boils down to.. they have nothing to be scared of, nothing to fear... if they want what you have, they'll take it. Almost always with more violence than you can imagine. Add to this a well developed hatred and mistrust of anyone white.. and you have a whole heap of fun.

Just to confuse the issue.. you have 1000's of law abiding black citizens that would love to just go about their business. They're friendly and caring just like anyone else in any other country.

So.. Sandton is in general probably the safest place to stay. The Holiday Inn is good, but there are a number of other hotels just as nice. A couple are right next to the Sandton City shopping complex - allowing you to go shop without going out into the streets.. maybe something worth thinking about. Having said that.. no point staying in Sandton if your work is 30kms away.. feel free to PM your address and I'll give you my opinion..

Don't go out at night.. not unless you're accompanied by locals.. personally.. I'd still stay home..
Don't take anything with you that you want to keep. Be prepared to loose everything.. watches, rings, jewellery, phones, cameras, wallets, credit cards, laptops, tablets etc..
Do get hold of an American Express card. For the simple reason, if your wallet gets stolen, Amex is probably the best in getting a new card to you ASAP. Often times within 24 hours. If you get a charge card.. so much better.. then you don't have to stress immediately about the cost of replacing what needs replacing.
Do let the locals organise your transport - if you have to rent a car.. go for something invisible.. don't drive a Merc or a BMW.. you'll stand out as a target !

Cape Town.. although CT is heaps better than Jo'burg.. it's still South Africa.. the difference is that the real poor areas in Cape Town are further away from the shopping / tourist areas than Jo'burg.. so the problem is not as visible.

Windhoek - what a lovely little city. I love the place.. all of Namibia is great. Do put the effort in to drive to Luderitz / Swakopmund. Go see the Etosha pans, and the desert elephants..

 Finally.. go look on youtube or liveleak.com.. search for crime South Africa. .and watch some of the clips. Louis Theroux made a great documentary..



Watch that.. just to get some idea of what to expect..

If you're in Perth and want to pop over for a Braai ( South African BBQ ), and a chat, feel free..

Please stay safe.. it's a great country.. pity about the people.

Mate, thanks for that post. I have just been looking at where I will need to go and unfortunately most of it is in Joburg. Fontainbleau, Jeppestown and near the AP in a place called Jetpark.

Normally I would either hire a car or get a cab but I think I might spring for a helicopter after that post. I was thinking town car but that would probly be a target then hahaha

BTW, I'll be over the Perf in a month or so. Might take you up on your offer 

[rokster72]

Fontainbleau is close to Sandton - also the highway from Sandton to JetPark is an easy travel. JetPark is like Osbourne park in perth, or Blacktown around Sunnyholt Rd in Sydney. Lots and lots and lots of small to medium commercial lots. Jeppestown is right next to the CBD.. can't remember when last I was there.. so I'd rather not comment.

There are no taxis.. at least not for the white people.. so sorry.. no can do ! Rent a Corolla, or a VW Golf and you'll be ok. As someone else said.. keep your stuff in the boot.. windows closed, and the doors locked. Don't be tempted to give anything to the roadside beggars..

[Dragonfly]

Now we've gone and scared the crap out of the poor guy

rokster's post is (unfortunately) about spot-on. Taking race out of it... There are ~60 Million people in South Africa. Nearly half of those (so ~30 Million people) are unemployed. Take a second for that to sink in... Imagine living in a country where the population of Australia + New Zealand is unemployed; on a land mass half the size of Western Australia. These people are desperate and go for soft targets.

rokster's practical tips (like keeping all your Shit in the boot, don't talk on your phone in the car, etc.) is spot-on. Your greatest asset will be awareness. The best tip I can give you for driving (which you will have to do - no VHA's or Town Cars, etc.) is to stay alert and aware of what's goin on around you and give yourself plenty of space between you and the car in front of you - just in case you need to make a quick exit.


Anyway, Jet Park and F'Bleu are pretty chilled and you shouldn't have any issues with those locations. You might want to try and stay close to F'Bleu. Jeppestown is OK, but you should stay alert.

Namibia is much safer and lots of fun over the weekend - 4WDs in the dune, desert dinners under the stars and definitely go to Moon Valley.

Having said all of that, you might want to hire a security firm for the first trip to Jhb - just to learn about stuff and how to move around, etc. I may have some contacts to help you out -  was in the industry for a short while in the mid 1990's.

Have sent a PM with my number in case you need to chat.

[ADTradie]

What a great topic! Thanks for sharing guys. It is a sobering reminder of how well we have it here in Oz.
And good luck with the travel Joff.
A.D.

[achjimmy]

Joff we had a branch there. Still have contacts if you need them but above has summed it well I think. I travel a lot for work, never pays to drop your guard TBH and more so in places you would think you don't need to.

[Rumpig]

I watched that Louis Theroux doco on telly a few weeks back, it certainly gives an insight into how hard some of the population do it over there. The crims they interviewed on it had zero regard for valuing someone's life, it was all about getting what they wanted regardless.

[Gohard]

And if you stay or work near Jet Park, pop into the Emperors Palace. You might get lucky!!

[LC]

I used to do Durban every now and then on the ships I worked on, some of things I picked up.

1) We used to always go up the road in groups - never alone.

2) Don't put stuff in the boot of taxi and expect the drivers to casually wait around while you get it out - they will drive off with your stuff. If you do put stuff in the boot of a taxi, have someone else stay in the taxi until you get your gear out.

3) Be sensible about where you go (which is the same for anywhere).

4) While at the pub don't barrack loudly for the Aussie rugby team that is flogging the local team on the big screen!

One night a few of us at were a waterfront bar in Durban, there was a large gathering of people across the road, not long after there was even a larger gathering of police, when we left the pub a couple of police officers saw us and came over to us. They were genuinely concerned for our safety so drove us back to the ship.

I always enjoyed going to Durban, the people that I encountered were good decent people that were happy to help. But as others have said, you need to stay alert and be switched on about where you go, and what you do with your personal belongings etc.

[tk421]

Now we've gone and scared the crap out of the poor guy

rokster's post is (unfortunately) about spot-on. Taking race out of it... There are ~60 Million people in South Africa. Nearly half of those (so ~30 Million people) are unemployed. Take a second for that to sink in... Imagine living in a country where the population of Australia + New Zealand is unemployed; on a land mass half the size of Western Australia. These people are desperate and go for soft targets.

rokster's practical tips (like keeping all your Shit in the boot, don't talk on your phone in the car, etc.) is spot-on. Your greatest asset will be awareness. The best tip I can give you for driving (which you will have to do - no VHA's or Town Cars, etc.) is to stay alert and aware of what's goin on around you and give yourself plenty of space between you and the car in front of you - just in case you need to make a quick exit.

Agree, but don't be scared witless about visiting Joff, (or anyone else). Yes its an eye opener for someone from Australia, and yes, definitely watch yourself and be aware, but the majority of the murders and crime happen in the black townships, which hopefully you don't accidentally end up in. Most black on white crime is muggings, car jackings and home invasions.     Unfortunately life is very cheap throughout Africa so if it does happen it can go nasty very quickly. So don't put yourself in a position where it can happen.

Get a local to show you around and teach you what's what and where not to go.   Basically, dont make yourself a target (ie don't get your wallet/phone out in public, etc). Lock your car doors if driving through a city, definitely don't drive at night through JHB CBD if you can avoid it. Don't stop at traffic lights at night either. Don't get in a local minibus taxi, and don't travel on the commuter trains. 

And there are some very different parts to South Africa.  Watch all the youtube videos on crime in South Africa and take note of where they are occurring - The nice areas or the poor areas? I used to go out drinking at night in Durban with my mates and we mostly wouldn't even lock the car, a crappy old beetle - (they only tend to steal nice clean luxury cars ).  I'm sure you all remember the scenes of unrest from Soweto in the 80's? Soweto has still got high levels of poverty  but Soweto also has the highest concentration of millionaires in South Africa living in some very nice houses with BMW's and Mercs parked in the garage.   JHB is unfortunately possibly the worst for crime due to the mines.  Capetown is a different proposition unless you accidentally end up in one of the townships such as Khayelitsha (but even parts of that are changing). 

So be aware, dont be stupid and you'll be fine.

[Joff]

Thanks for all this advice. Im not in the habit of being scared about these things (a couple years ago i tried to get into North Korea  ) but i do like to get local advice. I wont be going for a few months. Got some homework to do before i do go too so things should be a bit clearer with locals helping me with logistics by then

[Symon]

I go to JoBerg on a regular basis for work, and can back up the advice that was previously posted.  I personally stay at the Intercontinental which is right beside Mandela Square, it is pretty fancy even by Australian standards and you are pretty safe there, but be vigilant nonetheless.

The hotel can arrange transportation to wherever you want to go, and that is the way I personally travel.  Never trust taxis, buses or trains.  As said above, life is cheap in South Africa, and desperate people will have no second thoughts about killing you if it means they get to eat that night.  On one occasion we worked back late in the office, so we had to sleep at our desks - it wasn't safe to venture outside to our cars at night so had to wait until morning.

[Gohard]

My question is. How do the people survive in a country like that
Easy if you're more than one. You just need to be faster than your friends.

On a serious note.

Don't talk too loud and too much. They will pick your accent and that will make you an easy target.

I got of the plane from Chicago to Johannesburg. Waiting outside the airport for the wife, while having a well deserved smoke. Two guys approached, grabbed my bags and started running into different directions. Been tired and jet lagged, I chased  and luckily caught one. Another stranger helped me and only got the bag back without the perpetrator. With both bags back and one fellow on the ground, this is what he said.
"Sorry boss. I thought You were a foreigner?

But its not all bad. Lovely place and good people and good food.
And don't talk about recent rugby. If you need to talk about rugby talk about 1995 or 2007 world cup. NOT 1991 or 1999. Thats a big no no.

[GeoffA]

.....
"Sorry boss. I thought You were a foreigner?
.....

...and now we welcome this type into our country...

[macca]

...and now we welcome this type into our country...

........ and with all the home invasions and car jackings it appears they are bringing there talents with them.


Disclaimer...... Not trying to be racist but there is a huge problem in Melbourne with this Apex gang at the moment

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Gohard]

Thank the government that allowed them in.