New house - Best Hot water System???

[prodigyrf]

Yep that's my overall conclusion too but without the noisy heat pump HWS and the added up front cost that won't be amortised with Adelaide water-
http://reneweconomy.com.au/2015/its-cold-in-my-house-and-the-price-of-gas-is-going-up-what-can-i-do-95309
A heat pump might make sense with the water in your neck of the woods.

Out of interest what sort of life do you softies get out of your HWSs now?

[Markoutback]

I have a Rinnai infinity enviro 26 and I am on bottled gas it cost approximately $300 dollars a year to run a family of four
What I say to customers is buy your gas bottle outright a 200kg fat boy approximately $1500
You ring up and get it filled when it is at 30%
The cost of a solar system plus installation costs $4000 plus in most cases where a Rinnai plus gas bottle is cheaper. If you do a solar panel, pump or the electric controller on the solar unit it's a costly repair
In my opinion solar just isn't worth the cost as the maintenance and up keep can be costly.

[prodigyrf]

That $300/yr lpg cost with a fat boy sounds very competitive M as I know the BIL gave up 2 x 45 kg lpg tanks for roof solar and he switched the gas hob to induction because he thought the lpg with rental presumably wasn't worth it. With a 10 yr old rooftop solar now he's not been that happy with the maintenance and having to use the boost element a lot with a family of four.

So you outlay $1500 for just the fat boy tank or does that include it full? How much will it cost to test the cyl after 10 years and are you allowed to transport it or only a licensed carrier with that size? Now here's a thought. You own 2 or even 3?  8.5kg bottles and at $23 exchange at Bunnings that's about a dozen changeovers for your current $300 a year consumption and would that do it without the fat boy outlay and testing, etc?

[Julian Kaye]

I have a Rinnai infinity enviro 26 and I am on bottled gas it cost approximately $300 dollars a year to run a family of four
What I say to customers is buy your gas bottle outright a 200kg fat boy approximately $1500
You ring up and get it filled when it is at 30%
The cost of a solar system plus installation costs $4000 plus in most cases where a Rinnai plus gas bottle is cheaper. If you do a solar panel, pump or the electric controller on the solar unit it's a costly repair
In my opinion solar just isn't worth the cost as the maintenance and up keep can be costly.

 $300 a year to run plus your electricity costs and then fork out $1500 to buy a 200kg bottle? you must be kidding.  My electric boosted solar cost $3300 to install and costs me about $30 a year to run the booster on cold /wet days. In my experience instantaneous gas is great hot water but only if you're on natural gas. If you've got to bottle the gas you're much better off with electric boosted solar.

[prodigyrf]

"In my experience instantaneous gas is great hot water but only if you're on natural gas."

Well I blew that myth by showing you can be paying a fixed service fee of $275/yr or as high as $348/yr having NG on when we're told it merely costs $300/yr in LPG consumption with a Rinnai Infinity 26 that comes with a 12 yr heat exchanger warranty with no costly anode changes because they're not under constant hot water pressure. Yes the Fat Boy with a capacity of 499 Litres is $1500 (unfilled I note) but it won't wear out like every HWS will. In any case you can opt for buying a couple of 45 kg ones for around $600/pair if you don't want to pay rental on them but that might mean a dearer LPG price. Can the Fat Boy owner fill us in on that score?

[prodigyrf]

Mind you there is a scurrilous rumour going around that some shady Fat Boy owners are quite amenable to running a bit of a sideline for similar shady appreciative locals in order to amortize the cost of their bottles and other odd sundries-
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LPG-Filler-Gun-Hose-Comes-with-1-3-4-Adpter/331747752446?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140106155344%26meid%3D9c79aec2937e4576a322115771864a7c%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D3%26sd%3D330756606032

[GBC]

Or conversely buy the vehicle filling adaptor from the same eBay store and take your 45 to the servo and surreptitiously fill your own at bargain basement prices.
I'll stick with my Solar system. Much easier.

[austastar]

Hi,
    I wouldn't want to turn a fat boy upside down. To use that ebay device, the donor cylinder must be inverted if it doesn't have a dip tube supply.
Cheers

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

[prodigyrf]

Hi,
    I wouldn't want to turn a fat boy upside down. To use that ebay device, the donor cylinder must be inverted if it doesn't have a dip tube supply.
Cheers

Wrong fitting but I think the large tanks like the Fat Boys have CGA 555 fittings as well as POL ones. In any case with the notion that LPG and a Rinnai heater could be more than competitive with NG due to the hefty fixed service charge, how long would an 8.5kg run and how many might an owner need on standby so they're not running down to Bunnings or the like too regularly? People leave 8.5kg ones out for hard rubbish and they're everywhere which is why I've got 3 of the suckers and you could always rack em and stack em for the task.

[prodigyrf]

The BIL informs me he just paid $300 for a service and the second new anode on his Solahart roof heater (10 yr old now and they change them every 5 years) and he uses the boost a fair bit with a family of four so there's a year's LPG out of that Fat Boy plus he paid another $200 to replace a thermostat a year or so ago. I've got a Rinnai in a rental unit that's over 15 yr old and never been touched so there's more to solar than meets the eye, particularly with hard water.

[briann532]

Hey everyone.

Thanks heaps for the replies and discussion.
As one would expect from Myswag folk (Except those leccie tossers that post in the electrical section ( I can say that- I am one)) some great info, advice, opinion and discussion.

Upon further talks with the builder, I'm going with a rooftop Solar - Yep the old fashioned type, and have an electric boost run off my solar panels.
After doing the figures and adding up all the gazinta's I think it will be the best way to go.

As far as changing anodes etc etc, I'm a solar sparky who spend's 90% of my working life on a roof so it won't be a problem.
I can also get the replacement hard water anodes or $37.50 and the elements for $17 courtesy of my wholesaler.


My plan is to run the solar only during summer and then in winter turn on the boost at around 1pm or so with a timer to utilise the PV panels free power.
I am also going to install a KW hour meter on the boost to see how much I'm actually using.
If needs be, or my solar isn't keeping up then I can always go to the old off peak boost.
Trying to avoid this as it will reheat a partial tank overnight if we shower in the evening or night, which of course we do.

I'm putting in a 20KW PV array and hoping the prices of storage come down when we have finished building so I can install that for night time use.
Unfortunately we are "HUGE" energy consumers.
Pool will have twin pumps, solar boost and possibly a condenser heater.
House will have 3 phase ducted A/C as well as all electric appliances.
We both work and aren't home during the day to utilise power production, but can set timers etc for the dishwasher and washing machine.
Water will be pumped as well as septic and irrigation.
Hence the large solar array.
(Lucky I know a bloke who can install it for FREE....... Just gotta buy the panels!!!)

I have explored the gas option, but I just don't think it's going to be cost effective.

We are going to use a slow combustion wood heater for heating in winter. Down to my last 1200 acres of hardwood down at the farm, so I shouldn't run out anytime soon.........
Just have to get the splitter cranking and bring a few loads back every season.

Once again, thank you all for your replies and opinions, it has helped immensely.

Brian

[gronk]

Do you hope the solar and /or batteries will run a 3 phase aircon as well as pool pump etc ?

Can you have a system that can run either offgrid and on grid when needed, like in a changeover switch ?

[briann532]

Do you hope the solar and /or batteries will run a 3 phase aircon as well as pool pump etc ?

Can you have a system that can run either offgrid and on grid when needed, like in a changeover switch ?

Sorry Gronk, but at this stage I honestly don't know.

I've been installing these for years, but mostly standard grid connect systems, and a few stand alones, but the cost of battery storage has been too much to be cost effective.
Lately I've done a few hybrid systems that do both, but the battery storage is still pricey so most are just for future use.

A decent hybrid inverter will take care of both, but my recent research and experience using micro inverters is leading me to think about installing "enphase" micros inverters which are brilliant and just having a plain old battery charger, like C-tek or similar to charge a battery bank then utilise an inverter to get the power back out of the batteries.

Currently I'm led to believe this way has too many losses and that a hybrid inverter is more efficient, but with the outputs and efficiency that enphase are getting, I think the table are turning.
I'm off to do a course in a couple of weeks on utilising "Telsa" style battery banks with hybrid and micro inverter systems.

BUT---- As I say, my experience with it is limited and I'm hoping my house, farm, and a mates house will all be good trials.
Time will tell.

As far as running a 3 phase A/C, the PV array shouldn't be a problem powering it, but when the sun starts to go down, the batteries won't sustain it long.
I'm hoping that having the house cooled by the panels during the heat of the day and with good insulation and design, I can turn it off as the sun goes down and it should stay cool.
As always though, I'm realistic and on those stinking hot summer nights, I may just have to utilise full battery power and then just buy in.

I'm not searching for the utopian free, off the grid type system, just wanting to reduce costs and maximise efficiency.

Brian

[rags]

Hey everyone.

Thanks heaps for the replies and discussion.
As one would expect from Myswag folk (Except those leccie tossers that post in the electrical section ( I can say that- I am one)) some great info, advice, opinion and discussion.

Upon further talks with the builder, I'm going with a rooftop Solar - Yep the old fashioned type, and have an electric boost run off my solar panels.
After doing the figures and adding up all the gazinta's I think it will be the best way to go.

As far as changing anodes etc etc, I'm a solar sparky who spend's 90% of my working life on a roof so it won't be a problem.
I can also get the replacement hard water anodes or $37.50 and the elements for $17 courtesy of my wholesaler
Pool will have twin pumps, solar boost and possibly a condenser heater.

House will have 3 phase ducted A/C as well as all electric appliances.


 
Water will be pumped as well as septic and irrigation.
Hence the large solar array.


Brian

Good decision Brian, as to anodes as I mentioned in my earlier post my old heater lasted 27 years and I never changed the anode, reason tank feed from Mountain rain and water pump pressure. If you stick with the stainless system you will find no anode. Never changed an element either but did a thermostats or 2. Also Make sure you get the biggest water tank you can afford and fit, mine was 160000 litres concrete and never ran out or needed to be frugal. Also depending on the type of water. tank I can suggest a method of connection of the roof water and the overflow so as the tank becomes self cleansing when full.
Regarding the waste water septic explore your options as there's are many variations, my suggestion would be to consider sand filters in Luei of aeration.
If heating a pool and you proposed to have a large mass of concrete or bitumin drive consider using that as a heat sink with pipes ran on the underside.
Happy for you to pm me if you want more info
Cheers