Author Topic: Work for the dole - gets my vote - will it get thru parliament?  (Read 31360 times)

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Offline Kangaron

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Re: Work for the dole - gets my vote - will it get thru parliament?
« Reply #50 on: July 29, 2014, 02:37:46 PM »
yeah everyone will have a different view regarding this, I have seen plenty of genuine people looking for work & interviewed plenty who begged me not to hire them.

My son, who is 12 (because he's too young yet)is getting frustrated that he not allowed to get a PT job as he can't wait to work at an aussie disposals or a rays outdoors  ;D, while he's at high school

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He can work in limited areas at 12, but at 13 he can work in retail - all info at youth central, have a read

Offline Swannie

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Re: Work for the dole - gets my vote - will it get thru parliament?
« Reply #51 on: July 29, 2014, 02:47:23 PM »
He can work in limited areas at 12, but at 13 he can work in retail - all info at youth central, have a read

Thanks mate, I keep telling him he needs to be 14 & 9 months
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Offline rotare

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Re: Work for the dole - gets my vote - will it get thru parliament?
« Reply #52 on: July 29, 2014, 03:41:35 PM »
Quote
You're making the error of assuming that everyone else is like you - that they all have the same motivations, same physical abilities, same geographical situation, etc.

I agree, but you've hit the nail on the head in my opinion - why are some people less motivated than others to get employment?  The answer is for a lot of people right now they don't need to be motivated cause it's too easy to stay in the system, make little effort to look for work and simply stay long term unemployed.  Really, why should it be acceptable for one person to be less motivated than another to find work? 

If being unemployed becomes a hard gig, then surely people will be motivated to find and keep employment?

I'll be the first to admit I'm a bit jaded about the long term unemployed and my views may not sit well with some - here's why.  For 30 years I've watched as one side of my family have lived as the "traditional" dole bludgers.  They could have worked, but chose not to and live a life full of excuses.  They've pulled scams, faked injuries and eventually managed to get themselves on a disability pension.  They live a modest lifestyle in a government supplied house and by no means seem to be doing it tough.  Now the second generation is coming through the system and surprise surprise, none of them can find work either.  The 20 year old already has 3 kids to 3 different women and has supposedly developed a bad back stopping him from finding work - probably from shagging as it certainly isn't a work related injury as he's never had a paying job.

I'd like to think is an isolated case, but they live in a neighbourhood full of people of the same ilk.  Just gets under my skin thinking that our taxes pay for this sort of rorting, hence why rightly or wrongly I reckon the system needs a shake up - sorry for the rant  :-[       

Offline Black Diamond

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Re: Work for the dole - gets my vote - will it get thru parliament?
« Reply #53 on: July 29, 2014, 03:47:52 PM »
Thanks mate, I keep telling him he needs to be 14 & 9 months
Thats the way get the little fella working early to pay for some more mods on the 80  >:D
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Offline camper48

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Re: Work for the dole - gets my vote - will it get thru parliament?
« Reply #54 on: July 29, 2014, 03:50:14 PM »
 politicians just flexing their muscle. Reminds me of Howard"I'm tough" re-elect me im nr muscles, but no solutions at all.

Offline briann532

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Re: Work for the dole - gets my vote - will it get thru parliament?
« Reply #55 on: July 29, 2014, 04:06:26 PM »
"Ask not what your your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country."

Sadly work ethic is an attitude and too many people are either not taught it, or just don't follow it.
This is made worse by the growing numbers who abuse it.

Work for the dole simply won't work. All it takes is for lazy numpty to "roll his ankle" and then claim compo...............
Its a perpetuating cycle.

Attitudes need to change.
If you want to work in this country you can. Maybe not the job you want or think you deserve, but you can always get work.
This fails in remote areas and areas of extreme unemployment due to job shortages, but surely a policy can be made to allow for extenuating circumstance.
It can also be made to allow for laziness, pride and pure greed too.

Sadly I'm a tradie not a pollie so I don't have the answer, but I do know that this scheme just simply won't work.

Start trying to change attitudes rather than policies.
Perhaps food stamps or smart cards rather than cash for drugs and cigarettes might be a start.

And on the issue of drug testing - Can anyone offer a plausible reason why not?
I need to be "clean" to drive and to work, so surely to get benefits that someone else has worked for the least you can do is not waste their money on drugs.

Now back in my day........................... ;D

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Offline Snapman007

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Re: Work for the dole - gets my vote - will it get thru parliament?
« Reply #56 on: July 29, 2014, 04:56:23 PM »

When they reach 12 months unemployed remove the cash payments and give them debit cards to use for food, utilities, public transport etc. This will at the very least make it more difficult for bludgers to spend it on drugs, alcohol, tobacco and pokies but I suppose in the end the government gets a good portion of the payment back in taxes if they do.
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Re: Work for the dole - gets my vote - will it get thru parliament?
« Reply #57 on: July 29, 2014, 05:16:36 PM »
Quote from: briann532
And on the issue of drug testing - Can anyone offer a plausible reason why not?
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Offline Bullant4x4

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Work for the dole - gets my vote - will it get thru parliament?
« Reply #58 on: July 29, 2014, 06:18:50 PM »
Cost.
Failure rate lol :) Those dirty druggies, Indica users however need a little couch time :) and since sativa are better outside, they have more energy?

Offline Nomad

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Re: Work for the dole - gets my vote - will it get thru parliament?
« Reply #59 on: July 29, 2014, 07:28:03 PM »
Can of worms....................

There will always be a percentage of people unemployed / unemployable......maybe 5% is our notionally full employment rate.

The unemployed don't save money, it all goes back into the economy one way or the other.........drugs, ciggies, booze food.....whatever...

What happens when the wftd program takes jobs from those people living and working on the fringe of poverty who are now competing against those who are wftd............

Economically speaking you are dealing with the minorities and some sensitivity is required............but how much and to whom?

I think Abbott has taken a sledge hammer to the situation where more consideration is required...........

Basically I am fubared if I know how to treat it.

« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 08:04:13 PM by Nomad »

Offline barneys

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Re: Work for the dole - gets my vote - will it get thru parliament?
« Reply #60 on: July 29, 2014, 07:32:03 PM »
Yep I agree. They should be made to do at least 3 days a week doing community work, i.e. Cleaning graffiti or picking up litter, the crap jobs that cost every local govt money.
so when they start doing that what about the people that are doing that now ,what you just sack them

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Re: Work for the dole - gets my vote - will it get thru parliament?
« Reply #61 on: July 29, 2014, 07:41:49 PM »
This has been attempted for years. One day someone will come up with the right answer.

Work for the Dole is an Australian federal government program that is a form of workfare, work-based welfare. It was first permanently enacted in 1998, having been trialed in 1997.

It is one means by which job seekers can satisfy their mutual obligation requirements. Other means include accredited study, part-time work and volunteer work.

Placements are available in a wide range of areas including heritage, the environment, arts, community care, tourism, sport and making and maintaining community services and facilities. Most projects benefit the general community through services and adding value to civic assets, however, some projects in drought affected areas are designed to benefit private enterprise (through the Drought Force scheme).

Upon successful completion of a Work for the Dole placement, participants are usually eligible for a Training Credit to assist with accredited training ($800 for six months, less for less time), a Passport to Employment package of job application training, and a fortnightly transport supplement.

Work for the Dole services are delivered through community or local government bodies, or by the Green Corps. Job seekers may be required by the government to take part in Work for the Dole if they are aged 18 or 19 years, recently completed Year 12, getting the full rate of Youth Allowance, and have been getting payments for three months or more, or aged 18 to 49 years, getting the full rate of Youth Allowance or Newstart Allowance, and have been getting payments for twelve months or more.

In addition, job seekers aged 18 and over who get either allowance can volunteer to participate in an activity at any time. Those participating in the program usually do so for 32 hours per fortnight. Each placement lasts for six months, and is followed by six months without obligation to participate.

Work for the Dole participants may receive an extra $920.80 per fortnight, on top of their Allowance payments.[1] Protective clothing is provided by the project sponsor if it is needed. Essential training, such as occupational health and safety training, is also provided. Transport costs are not separately covered however, and can easily absorb the additional payment - especially for those undertaking the "full time" version.

Work for the Dole was first proposed by the Liberal Party of Australia in 1987, and was enacted on a trial basis a year after it gained power at the 1996 federal election in their traditional coalition. Despite mixed feelings among younger people, at whom the program was aimed, there was little mainstream opposition when it was launched.[2]

On 1 July 1998, all job seekers aged 18–24 that had been claiming benefits for six months or more were required to join the scheme. From 19 April 1999, job seekers aged 17 or 18 and who had left Year 12 had to join the scheme after three months of job seeking. During the 2000 Summer Olympic Games, all those of an eligible age who had been unemployed for three months or more and lived in Sydney were required to participate. This temporary change was made to encourage people to take up casual work during the Games. In December 2000, Work for the Dole was expanded to include those aged 35–39. Additionally, those aged 40–49 could volunteer themselves for the scheme for the first time. On 1 July 2002, Training Credits were paid to those completing the scheme for the first time. The initial amount was $800 for six months work.

In December 2002, the Drought Force initiative was enacted. Previously, all Work for the Dole projects directly benefited the public, community organisations or civic assets. However, this scheme expanded the scope to include work for privately owned agricultural properties in areas deemed to be experiencing exceptional circumstances (generally drought). On 1 July 2006, "Full Time Work for the Dole" was enacted for those seeking work for 12 months or more. They were directed towards a scheme identical to the standard form, except that the fortnightly hours of participation was increased to 50.

Despite speculation otherwise, the Rudd government maintained Work for the Dole.[3]

Criticism

When the scheme was first announced in the late 1990s, some observers suggested it was ill-conceived from both social and economic viewpoints. For example, Bessant queried the Government's justifications for the scheme, which centred around providing a means for young people to get back into the workforce by improving their work ethic as a misunderstanding of the causes of youth unemployment. Bessant went on to say there is no evidence that poor attitudes towards work, disorganisation or other personal deficits are the primary source of youth unemployment, rather it is the result of globalisation, the exportation of unskilled labour and increased application of labour-saving technologies in industry.[4] From an economic perspective, the scheme was praised for its potential, but the fact that it was not fully voluntary would make it difficult for employers to establish whether a person had the positive workplace characteristics associated with voluntary participation, or the less desirable characteristics associated with compulsory participation.[5]

Several academics have pointed out that Work for the Dole is the embodiment of a paradigm shift in which welfare support is no longer being considered a "right", but rather "conditional support" in which unemployed people are expected to undertake their “mutual obligation”. Shaver suggests this violates the assumption that all citizens are equal in the status, dignity and worth that are necessary for full participation in democratic society.[6]

Subsequent studies have investigated the impact of Work for the Dole in Australian society and found that because it compels or contracts individuals to contribute, it "may actually weaken their long-term commitment to society",[7] while another has suggested it may be discriminatory because it was found to benefit men but not women.[8]




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Offline dazzler

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Re: Work for the dole - gets my vote - will it get thru parliament?
« Reply #62 on: July 29, 2014, 08:00:05 PM »
Fair enough Dazzler the wag the dog thing has merit, but how did those thinking Countries go during the GFC. Coal and iron ore kept us afloat during that period not the $1000 checks Ruddy handed out.
I think the wftd could have merit for long time unemployed if it is tied to skills training.
Last I heard it has bipartisan support on some levels but the devil will be in the detail.



A good point.

Though what is often missed is that they support the economy.

A small percentage of our tax goes to bludgers (I am talking the lazy ones).

They buy smokes, grog, pies and chips from the local shop.
They buy cars and pay rego (sometimes)
They buy petrol and tyres and shop at $2 shops.

All that goes back into the economy and makes supports local business.

Pretty abstract I know. 

The thing is, the reason the govt raise this is to take our gaze from them.  Its the magicians pretty assistant.  Why do magicians assistants have nice long legs and yummy yummy breasts.  To take your eye.  No different here.

You can tell how fair dinkum they are by their actions.  When Holdens and Ford announced the pull out of manufacturing the govt could easily have looked to the future and said something like;

"we are going to invest in the future and in jobs.  We are going to build the best zero emission vehicles in the world."

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Offline lino6

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Re: Work for the dole - gets my vote - will it get thru parliament?
« Reply #63 on: July 29, 2014, 08:07:49 PM »
A good point.

Though what is often missed is that they support the economy.

A small percentage of our tax goes to bludgers (I am talking the lazy ones).

They buy smokes, grog, pies and chips from the local shop.
They buy cars and pay rego (sometimes)
They buy petrol and tyres and shop at $2 shops.
All that goes back into the economy and makes supports local business.

Pretty abstract I know. 

Now you mention this I remember reading an article along these lines. But in the article they added in the short life expectancy due to drug/alcohol abuse and their general life practices. I think the said that these were cheaper to keep because they die young.

Wish I could remember where I read this so I could post it up.....
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Offline weeds

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Re: Work for the dole - gets my vote - will it get thru parliament?
« Reply #64 on: July 29, 2014, 08:13:13 PM »

Work for the dole is a good idea in my opinion, but 40 applications a month?  That's just crazy, and small business owners will hate it.

What about large business.......I'm currently recruiting, 99 applicants for two positions. I would hate to think how many I would get if every man and his dog applies to meet some stupid quota


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Offline oldmate

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Re: Work for the dole - gets my vote - will it get thru parliament?
« Reply #65 on: July 29, 2014, 08:19:06 PM »
so when they start doing that what about the people that are doing that now ,what you just sack them

Umm no, they become supervisors. We are paying them now, keep them on "as managers" to look after the the wftd people. There is more parks etc to be cleaned of litter and graffiti then what your local council can handle.

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« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 08:22:14 PM by oldmate »
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Offline grafy82

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Re: Work for the dole - gets my vote - will it get thru parliament?
« Reply #66 on: July 29, 2014, 08:33:05 PM »
I think the program has merit and I'm only talking about the real 'dole bludgers' here, not those seriously looking for work. I would also love to see drug testing. We all like to bag the government of the day no matter what they do, but something needs to be done. It's too easy to say "yeah who cares, they're just druggies and bums, keep feeding them just enough to keep them out of our hair until they die". But that is a disgusting attitude as it forgets 1 huge factor, their kids. We need to break the cycle so these poor kids who through no fault of their own are born into these circumstances. I don't have the right answer, but I haven't heard a good argument here to justify leaving the system the way it is.
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Offline oldmate

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Re: Work for the dole - gets my vote - will it get thru parliament?
« Reply #67 on: July 29, 2014, 08:36:04 PM »
I think the program has merit and I'm only talking about the real 'dole bludgers' here, not those seriously looking for work. I would also love to see drug testing. We all like to bag the government of the day no matter what they do, but something needs to be done. It's too easy to say "yeah who cares, they're just druggies and bums, keep feeding them just enough to keep them out of our hair until they die". But that is a disgusting attitude as it forgets 1 huge factor, their kids. We need to break the cycle so these poor kids who through no fault of their own are born into these circumstances. I don't have the right answer, but I haven't heard a good argument here to justify leaving the system the way it is.

Yeah I agree, there is a real difference between a dole bludger, and someone that needs welfare payments.  I still say drug test em then shoot em hahahaha
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Offline grafy82

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Re: Work for the dole - gets my vote - will it get thru parliament?
« Reply #68 on: July 29, 2014, 08:55:36 PM »

You can tell how fair dinkum they are by their actions.  When Holdens and Ford announced the pull out of manufacturing the govt could easily have looked to the future and said something like;

"we are going to invest in the future and in jobs.  We are going to build the best zero emission vehicles in the world."

cheers

daz


- our population is increasing
- our tax base is shrinking
- the retirement age is getting higher

We talk about it costing too much to drug test dole recipients. Who would pay for these vehicles when the car companies cant even make money? (sorry for getting off topic)
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Offline marvellous_matt

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Re: Work for the dole - gets my vote - will it get thru parliament?
« Reply #69 on: July 29, 2014, 09:28:28 PM »
here is what the ABC are saying about this topic in the NT, some interesting points.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-29/unemployment-policy-work-for-the-dole-fruit-picking-dave-tollner/5633270?section=nt

Offline koshari

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Re: Work for the dole - gets my vote - will it get thru parliament?
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2014, 10:10:29 PM »
Theres a pretty good reason some people are long term unemployed. I know a few and iam certain I wouldnt employ them.

Hence the fact that nobody else does either.
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Re: Work for the dole - gets my vote - will it get thru parliament?
« Reply #71 on: July 29, 2014, 10:11:17 PM »
Won't take long for someone to develop an app that cross references the yellow pages for business in your area and automatically sends out 40 applications.
Bugger should have kept that to myself...


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Re: Work for the dole - gets my vote - will it get thru parliament?
« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2014, 11:22:49 PM »
This has been attempted for years. One day someone will come up with the right answer.

Work for the Dole is an Australian federal government program that is a form of workfare, work-based welfare. It was first permanently enacted in 1998, having been trialed in 1997.

It is one means by which job seekers can satisfy their mutual obligation requirements. Other means include accredited study, part-time work and volunteer work.

Placements are available in a wide range of areas including heritage, the environment, arts, community care, tourism, sport and making and maintaining community services and facilities. Most projects benefit the general community through services and adding value to civic assets, however, some projects in drought affected areas are designed to benefit private enterprise (through the Drought Force scheme).

Upon successful completion of a Work for the Dole placement, participants are usually eligible for a Training Credit to assist with accredited training ($800 for six months, less for less time), a Passport to Employment package of job application training, and a fortnightly transport supplement.

Work for the Dole services are delivered through community or local government bodies, or by the Green Corps. Job seekers may be required by the government to take part in Work for the Dole if they are aged 18 or 19 years, recently completed Year 12, getting the full rate of Youth Allowance, and have been getting payments for three months or more, or aged 18 to 49 years, getting the full rate of Youth Allowance or Newstart Allowance, and have been getting payments for twelve months or more.

In addition, job seekers aged 18 and over who get either allowance can volunteer to participate in an activity at any time. Those participating in the program usually do so for 32 hours per fortnight. Each placement lasts for six months, and is followed by six months without obligation to participate.

Work for the Dole participants may receive an extra $920.80 per fortnight, on top of their Allowance payments.[1] Protective clothing is provided by the project sponsor if it is needed. Essential training, such as occupational health and safety training, is also provided. Transport costs are not separately covered however, and can easily absorb the additional payment - especially for those undertaking the "full time" version.

Work for the Dole was first proposed by the Liberal Party of Australia in 1987, and was enacted on a trial basis a year after it gained power at the 1996 federal election in their traditional coalition. Despite mixed feelings among younger people, at whom the program was aimed, there was little mainstream opposition when it was launched.[2]

On 1 July 1998, all job seekers aged 18–24 that had been claiming benefits for six months or more were required to join the scheme. From 19 April 1999, job seekers aged 17 or 18 and who had left Year 12 had to join the scheme after three months of job seeking. During the 2000 Summer Olympic Games, all those of an eligible age who had been unemployed for three months or more and lived in Sydney were required to participate. This temporary change was made to encourage people to take up casual work during the Games. In December 2000, Work for the Dole was expanded to include those aged 35–39. Additionally, those aged 40–49 could volunteer themselves for the scheme for the first time. On 1 July 2002, Training Credits were paid to those completing the scheme for the first time. The initial amount was $800 for six months work.

In December 2002, the Drought Force initiative was enacted. Previously, all Work for the Dole projects directly benefited the public, community organisations or civic assets. However, this scheme expanded the scope to include work for privately owned agricultural properties in areas deemed to be experiencing exceptional circumstances (generally drought). On 1 July 2006, "Full Time Work for the Dole" was enacted for those seeking work for 12 months or more. They were directed towards a scheme identical to the standard form, except that the fortnightly hours of participation was increased to 50.

Despite speculation otherwise, the Rudd government maintained Work for the Dole.[3]

Criticism

When the scheme was first announced in the late 1990s, some observers suggested it was ill-conceived from both social and economic viewpoints. For example, Bessant queried the Government's justifications for the scheme, which centred around providing a means for young people to get back into the workforce by improving their work ethic as a misunderstanding of the causes of youth unemployment. Bessant went on to say there is no evidence that poor attitudes towards work, disorganisation or other personal deficits are the primary source of youth unemployment, rather it is the result of globalisation, the exportation of unskilled labour and increased application of labour-saving technologies in industry.[4] From an economic perspective, the scheme was praised for its potential, but the fact that it was not fully voluntary would make it difficult for employers to establish whether a person had the positive workplace characteristics associated with voluntary participation, or the less desirable characteristics associated with compulsory participation.[5]

Several academics have pointed out that Work for the Dole is the embodiment of a paradigm shift in which welfare support is no longer being considered a "right", but rather "conditional support" in which unemployed people are expected to undertake their “mutual obligation”. Shaver suggests this violates the assumption that all citizens are equal in the status, dignity and worth that are necessary for full participation in democratic society.[6]

Subsequent studies have investigated the impact of Work for the Dole in Australian society and found that because it compels or contracts individuals to contribute, it "may actually weaken their long-term commitment to society",[7] while another has suggested it may be discriminatory because it was found to benefit men but not women.[8]

at least reference as a copy / paste  :cheers:

Offline speewa158

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Re: Work for the dole - gets my vote - will it get thru parliament?
« Reply #73 on: July 30, 2014, 03:52:14 AM »
Havent got time to read any more , got to go to work    :cheers:
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Re: Work for the dole - gets my vote - will it get thru parliament?
« Reply #74 on: July 30, 2014, 05:30:10 AM »
Do not PM me for technical advice - start a thread.
HDJ79 Ute - 100 Series Sahara - 2002 Kimberley Kamper - No ATS yet - Survivor of 5 McGirr trips-Cape 09,11,12,14 & Gulf 13