Author Topic: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything  (Read 779941 times)

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Offline CBRK

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1650 on: March 07, 2015, 01:21:26 PM »
Hi guys,

For those of you using an APM, I've started using the APM Log analyzer program, you can download it from here:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2151318

Its pretty good for pulling flight stats, note it only works off the dataflash logs and not the telemetry logs.

Chris
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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1651 on: March 09, 2015, 02:24:37 PM »
Have any of you used tower instead of droid planner. It is supposed to be the new droid planner.
Crispy


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Offline CBRK

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1652 on: March 09, 2015, 02:35:01 PM »
Have any of you used tower instead of droid planner. It is supposed to be the new droid planner.
Crispy


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I installed it but I'm still using Droid Planner (v1).  I will most likely switch to it soon as I like some of it's features, such as a periodic read out of info.  Droid Planner bangs out the batt level but would be nice to get the other info and only the info I request.

Chris
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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1653 on: March 09, 2015, 02:58:38 PM »
Well this morning I strapped the IXUS 115 to the tri and set it on a few missions.  After some mucking around I managed to get a reasonable survey done of one of the local playing fields.  I'm really impressed with Pix4D Discovery ed, the full version is a little pricey for amateur work (approx $400 AUD a month).

It's more accurate than I thought it would be.  It picked up a 2m embankment perfectly.  It shows that council has planned the drainage nicely as there is a gentle outwards slope, so the water drains to the outside.  The software stitched the images together very nicely, if only Microsoft's ICE would do the same....  Still learning how to use both the tools.

Pix4D is cool in that you can do a survey of a site from just aerial footage (as well as some ground control points to help accuracy).

Here is a sample pix from about 40m looking down:


Pix4D Mapper Test Report:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-TiIt-V6pLwN3djX1ZhbU9DR0k/view?usp=sharing


I had to extend the landing gear by 10cm to fit the downwards facing camera.

The pictures I took at an alt of 40m above the ground and I took around 60 of them, the camera is a Canon IXUS 115HS and was taking one pic every 6.5 sec's.  I had the Tri moving at 1.1 m/s to ensure I got 75% overlap.  Due to battery limitations I was unable to complete the planned mission, as it was I only just got it back in time as sink rate of 30m/m at 100% throttle.  I think to do the area properly I need to be running a 4s battery and / or my new motors.

I had to just tell it to start taking pics as I'm waiting for a step up converter to get my pixhawk to trigger the camera messages, that is why it doesn't contain any GPS coords in the images.  I plan to use MP to geotag the photos once I get the step up converter.  Once it arrives I can then use the cam messages and the number of photos will match and it will tag them.

Main goal tomorrow is to fix up the picture taking rate, currently one every 6.5 sec is too long, needs to be about one every 2 to 3 seconds to cover a reasonable area.

I also had the tri up at 120m AGL today (approx 370 feet), was very still air at ground level but at 120m it was getting buffeted around like nothing else, so it's a new ALT record for me.  I don't plan on taking it any higher at present as it was very hard to see and I had to use the FPV camera output to really know what was going on such as climb / sink rates and my real attitude - damn it was getting moved around.  I felt loiter did a brilliant job.  Took nearly 2 minutes to descend though.....
« Last Edit: March 09, 2015, 03:12:35 PM by CBRK »
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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1654 on: March 09, 2015, 03:29:24 PM »
Hey Chris,
I think you only had another 30ft to go before you and stretching the rules of hobby flight at 400 AGL
I have had mine up at 300 ft before and you get a great view but can't see much detail with the go pro.
Regards
Crispy


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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1655 on: March 09, 2015, 03:57:45 PM »
Hey Chris,
I think you only had another 30ft to go before you and stretching the rules of hobby flight at 400 AGL
I have had mine up at 300 ft before and you get a great view but can't see much detail with the go pro.
Regards
Crispy


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Hi Crispy,

Controlled airspace starts at 1500 ft in my area.  400ft only applies to flights within 3nm (5.5km) of a defined airport or in controlled airspace.  CASA would like us to believe that we have a 400ft limit in the city but it simply isnt backed up by regulation or legislation. 

Having said that I have no need to go any higher at this time as I agree image quality isnt that great up there.    I was under a flight path and as it was I reckon some of the flights coming in are only at 4000ft so I was high enough for my own comfort.

I reckon the changes that CASA want to put in will have this limitation to bring us in line with commercial UAV's/RPA's.

Apologies as I'm pretty passionate about this topic as I think it's a classic case of the government saying one thing but having legislation or regulations saying another.  If they want it that way it's not hard to get it changed, so just change it.

Chris
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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1656 on: March 09, 2015, 04:27:30 PM »
Just worked out that I can get it down to 4 sec's per photo, I had the DNG save turned on.  No need for the Digital Negative to be saved.  That should almost double my picture capability, now I just need to get the stepup converter to I can have accurate timings and location data for each image to help improve the accuracy of the photogrammetry data.

Now to see if I can get that down further, fingers crossed.

Chris
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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1657 on: March 09, 2015, 04:43:53 PM »
Hi Crispy,

The parcel is on the way, let me know how it goes or if Aus Post manages to eat this one.....  You'll have fun getting into it, it is covered in sticky tape (75%).

Regards,

Chris
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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1658 on: March 09, 2015, 09:05:26 PM »
Hi Crispy,

Controlled airspace starts at 1500 ft in my area.  400ft only applies to flights within 3nm (5.5km) of a defined airport or in controlled airspace.  CASA would like us to believe that we have a 400ft limit in the city but it simply isnt backed up by regulation or legislation. 

Having said that I have no need to go any higher at this time as I agree image quality isnt that great up there.    I was under a flight path and as it was I reckon some of the flights coming in are only at 4000ft so I was high enough for my own comfort.

I reckon the changes that CASA want to put in will have this limitation to bring us in line with commercial UAV's/RPA's.

Apologies as I'm pretty passionate about this topic as I think it's a classic case of the government saying one thing but having legislation or regulations saying another.  If they want it that way it's not hard to get it changed, so just change it.

Chris


Not here to cause trouble however need to ensure things are clear with CASA and unmanned aircraft operations (all contained in CASA 101 regulations)

Specifically :
"101.085 Maximum operating height
A person must not operate an unmanned aircraft at above 400 feet AGL
except:
(a) in an area approved under regulation 101.030 as an area for the
operation of unmanned aircraft of the same class as the aircraft
concerned, and in accordance with any conditions of the approval;
or
(b) as otherwise permitted by this Part. "

Source http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/rules/1998casr/101/101c03.pdf

additionally backed here:

http://www.rpastraining.com.au/casr-101-uav-drone-legal-or-illegal

remember 1500 ft in your area is there lowest height however the Aviation authority wish there to be a 1000FT seperation for safety between us and them therefore the 400ft applies.  Permission can be granted for exception however this is on a case by case situation.

Without predujice

Jody
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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1659 on: March 10, 2015, 12:29:29 AM »
Not here to cause trouble however need to ensure things are clear with CASA and unmanned aircraft operations (all contained in CASA 101 regulations)

Specifically :
"101.085 Maximum operating height
A person must not operate an unmanned aircraft at above 400 feet AGL
except:
(a) in an area approved under regulation 101.030 as an area for the
operation of unmanned aircraft of the same class as the aircraft
concerned, and in accordance with any conditions of the approval;
or
(b) as otherwise permitted by this Part. "

Source http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/rules/1998casr/101/101c03.pdf

additionally backed here:

http://www.rpastraining.com.au/casr-101-uav-drone-legal-or-illegal

remember 1500 ft in your area is there lowest height however the Aviation authority wish there to be a 1000FT seperation for safety between us and them therefore the 400ft applies.  Permission can be granted for exception however this is on a case by case situation.

Without predujice

Jody


Hi Jody,

Not wanting to be argumentative but you are looking at a very narrow piece of text, you need to consider the full regulation to understand what that part is saying.
 
Yes 101.085 applies, note the text "as otherwise permitted by this part".  Note that 101.400 is the key here, which is in sub part 101.G

We fly under model aircraft rules which is sub part 101.G.  Sub Parts A, B and C also apply.

101.400  Operation of model aircraft outside approved areas
             (1)  A person may operate a model aircraft outside an approved area above 400 feet AGL only if he or she:
                     (a)  keeps it in sight; and
                     (b)  keeps it clear of populous areas.
Penalty:  10 penalty units.
Note 1:       For populous area, see regulation 101.025.
Note 2:       CASA must publish details of the approval of an area (including any conditions) in NOTAM or on an aeronautical chart—see subregulation 101.030(5).
             (2)  An offence against subregulation (1) is an offence of strict liability.
Note:          For strict liability, see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code.

Populous areas are well defined in the regulation.  A park that I was at is not a populous area if there are few or no people present.  If a cricket game was underway then it would be a populous area.  There are also provisions to stay out of controlled airspace.

Trust me the regulation is not what CASA wants.  Note that commerical UAV sub part has no easy get out of jail free card in it, that is why the RPA's training material says what it does.  I disagree with it being pushed by CASA, they need to change their regulations then educate people.  Trying to educate people while not have any legal standing for it is wrong and a waste of tax payer dollars.

Also like CASA claiming that controlled airspace covers all of Sydney, sure it does but it has a floor to it too, think of an upside down stepped cone.  No one in the aviation industry (or in the legal world) would look at it any other way.

On the separation issue, that is a true, separation is key but again that is not what is legislated.  I do need to get out of any full size aircraft way and am extremely unlikely (nor do I want to be) to ever be in that position.  Simply I'm in Class G airspace and requires a visual separation (vertical and horizontal) to be maintained, as a modeler I am expected to yield to all full size (as it should be).

I've debated this particular regulation elsewhere.  I fully believe it will be changed in the review this year, but at present there are few limitations on us modelers.  Please note that CASA AC's are not considered regulations or rules, they are guidelines to follow - of course they would impact in a court case as it would be considered best practice.

Regards,

Chris


« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 12:03:32 PM by CBRK »
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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1660 on: March 10, 2015, 11:00:30 AM »
Project 450 - In its pieces -- Frame and ESCs arrived today so I can spend some time later putting it together -- Still waiting on a GPS module and folding GPS holder thingy .
« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 11:02:33 AM by Mandrake »
Going back to basics - sort of ...

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1661 on: March 10, 2015, 11:31:45 AM »
Project 450 - In its pieces -- Frame and ESCs arrived today so I can spend some time later putting it together -- Still waiting on a GPS module and folding GPS holder thingy .


Very nice Steve,

What motors and ESC's are you running with?

Cheers, Mark

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1662 on: March 10, 2015, 11:36:41 AM »
Marspower 2212 motors and Banggood el cheapo ESCs .. ( on special ) http://www.banggood.com/4X-XXD-HW30A-30A-Brushless-Motor-ESC-For-Airplane-Quadcopter-p-961966.html

This will be the test for me and the QBrain  I have .. If I don't have too much trouble getting this one to hover then I'll switch the ESCs over to the Alien
and get it working properly - Then try and work out the QBrain on this 450 ..
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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1663 on: March 10, 2015, 08:54:18 PM »
Well I got the frame half built - added motors and ESCs - my soldering is getting better !! Will have a go at ESC balancing later this week ...
« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 08:55:50 PM by Mandrake »
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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1664 on: March 10, 2015, 09:19:23 PM »
Steve,
You will have to relocate the signal wires from there as there is no holes in the top plate in that location.
Crispy


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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1665 on: March 10, 2015, 09:20:39 PM »
Yeah I know - Just put them up there while I was soldering ...
Going back to basics - sort of ...

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1666 on: March 11, 2015, 11:32:59 AM »
Hi Jody,

Not wanting to be argumentative but you are looking at a very narrow piece of text, you need to consider the full regulation to understand what that part is saying.
 
Yes 101.085 applies, note the text "as otherwise permitted by this part".  Note that 101.400 is the key here, which is in sub part 101.G

We fly under model aircraft rules which is sub part 101.G.  Sub Parts A, B and C also apply.

101.400  Operation of model aircraft outside approved areas
             (1)  A person may operate a model aircraft outside an approved area above 400 feet AGL only if he or she:
                     (a)  keeps it in sight; and
                     (b)  keeps it clear of populous areas.
Penalty:  10 penalty units.
Note 1:       For populous area, see regulation 101.025.
Note 2:       CASA must publish details of the approval of an area (including any conditions) in NOTAM or on an aeronautical chart—see subregulation 101.030(5).
             (2)  An offence against subregulation (1) is an offence of strict liability.
Note:          For strict liability, see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code.

Populous areas are well defined in the regulation.  A park that I was at is not a populous area if there are few or no people present.  If a cricket game was underway then it would be a populous area.  There are also provisions to stay out of controlled airspace.

Trust me the regulation is not what CASA wants.  Note that commerical UAV sub part has no easy get out of jail free card in it, that is why the RPA's training material says what it does.  I disagree with it being pushed by CASA, they need to change their regulations then educate people.  Trying to educate people while not have any legal standing for it is wrong and a waste of tax payer dollars.

Also like CASA claiming that controlled airspace covers all of Sydney, sure it does but it has a floor to it too, think of an upside down stepped cone.  No one in the aviation industry (or in the legal world) would look at it any other way.

On the separation issue, that is a true, separation is key but again that is not what is legislated.  I do need to get out of any full size aircraft way and am extremely unlikely (nor do I want to be) to ever be in that position.  Simply I'm in Class G airspace and requires a visual separation (vertical and horizontal) to be maintained, as a modeler I am expected to yield to all full size (as it should be).

I've debated this particular regulation elsewhere.  I fully believe it will be changed in the review this year, but at present there are few limitations on us modelers.  Please note that CASA AC's are not considered regulations or rules, they are guidelines to follow - of course they would impact in a court case as it would be considered best practice.

Regards,

Chris

Thanks CBRK

all good this end. I have been interviewed by a CASA legal investigator regarding Model flying against the CASA Regs and the MAAA MOP's (guidelines). The gentleman was sincere however it is very clear they will hold you well and truly to the line with this stuff. Note thi shad nothing to do with FPV or multis etc etc this was actually flying at a registered MAAA event.

My Concern is persons wanting try and interpret the rules to best suit there need (i.e i want to fly high or far or both) as do I LOL.

The real issue is the fact the airspace is for people flying in machines and the risk to them. Or the people on the ground with objects falling on them.

I really wish there was an app or something that you could easily identify that where you are you can go to height XXX or fly in this area and not that one.  Without being a fully fledged pilot with knowledge of aviation map reading and access to them.

without prejudice



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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1667 on: March 11, 2015, 11:35:50 AM »
Thanks CBRK

all good this end. I have been interviewed by a CASA legal investigator regarding Model flying against the CASA Regs and the MAAA MOP's (guidelines). The gentleman was sincere however it is very clear they will hold you well and truly to the line with this stuff. Note thi shad nothing to do with FPV or multis etc etc this was actually flying at a registered MAAA event.

My Concern is persons wanting try and interpret the rules to best suit there need (i.e i want to fly high or far or both) as do I LOL.

The real issue is the fact the airspace is for people flying in machines and the risk to them. Or the people on the ground with objects falling on them.

I really wish there was an app or something that you could easily identify that where you are you can go to height XXX or fly in this area and not that one.  Without being a fully fledged pilot with knowledge of aviation map reading and access to them.

without prejudice
I'm not sure how accurate it is, but Droid Planner shows restricted air space on the GPS map. From memory I think it actually stops the multicopter from arming if it determines it is in restricted air space.

Offline PluckA

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1668 on: March 11, 2015, 12:17:15 PM »
Check out safe to fly app for iOS found it on the wicked copters website


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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1669 on: March 11, 2015, 04:34:39 PM »
Droid planner not on IOS and the wicked one shows me airports as pins but not airspace restrictions etc its a start but not ideal


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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1670 on: March 11, 2015, 05:31:10 PM »
Mine gives the over lay in red of restricted airspace


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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1671 on: March 11, 2015, 05:38:25 PM »
Thanks CBRK

all good this end. I have been interviewed by a CASA legal investigator regarding Model flying against the CASA Regs and the MAAA MOP's (guidelines). The gentleman was sincere however it is very clear they will hold you well and truly to the line with this stuff. Note thi shad nothing to do with FPV or multis etc etc this was actually flying at a registered MAAA event.

My Concern is persons wanting try and interpret the rules to best suit there need (i.e i want to fly high or far or both) as do I LOL.

The real issue is the fact the airspace is for people flying in machines and the risk to them. Or the people on the ground with objects falling on them.

I really wish there was an app or something that you could easily identify that where you are you can go to height XXX or fly in this area and not that one.  Without being a fully fledged pilot with knowledge of aviation map reading and access to them.

without prejudice

All good then, I hope it was a happy outcome for the persons involved (if they were innocent then nothing happened).

The best way to protect yourself is to know the regulations that apply to you (either model or UAV) and stick to them.  I am pretty confident I know the rules and if an investigator decided to fine me or even warn me when there is no real regulations backing it then I'd be more than happy to challenge it.  With the APM and Pixhawk I have far more information that what most General Aviation Aircraft collect, so I can say confidently (within a reasonable degree of error) where I was and when.

We also dont want to overstate the risk, I'm a very risk adverse individual (many comment on it).  I think if you keep to the rules as they are written there is a very low, to non existent risk to fullsize.  If people start to fly in front of full size then it presents some risk and it's unacceptable.  As long as people don't just cherry pick items to meet there needs then it is all good - people need to read it in full and understand it.  A blanket 400ft rule is likely to be in the review but it's not there yet and people do have some latitude.  This will severely affect gliders who often go up to 1000ft and stay there for ages. 

I do have a dislike for the government overreaching, there is limited tax payer dollars, if they have enough to do more then they supposed to then they have a reduction in their budget then.

Having been closely involved with an investigative side of a government agency, I know some will disagree but if you were the subject of the investigation the best advice is do not say anything, the burden of proof is on them (if a modeller, if you hold other aircraft quals then no it's best to be proactive as CASA enforcement may effect those quals/certs).  What you will find is that it's easier to defend it once they have all their ducks in a row.  I know it wastes their time but unless you are 100% certain you were right you only end up making your life worse.

An example would be if a report of you flying too high came in, they won't fine or prosecute you unless they can be reasonably sure you were at that alt or if you challenge them it is hard for them to proove.  Only way to work it is based upon surrounding objects, with an APM or Pixhawk or other FC's with GPS and data logging you take that out of the equation - you know what alt you were (within + or - 10m).  If its about flying too close to people that one if harder to defend, that's why I'm extremely careful about people and their proximity to the model when I fly, some would say I'm paranoid about how close they get.

Regards,

Chris

« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 06:41:09 PM by CBRK »
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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1672 on: March 11, 2015, 05:56:21 PM »
I'm not sure how accurate it is, but Droid Planner shows restricted air space on the GPS map. From memory I think it actually stops the multicopter from arming if it determines it is in restricted air space.


Hi Marschy,

DroidPlanner and Mission Planner both display the airports and 5nm around them (5nm due to US Law - we have 3nm), it wont prevent you from arming it though.  Its just an advisory.

DJI have done that to their drones though as the phantom brigade seem to have trouble following the rules in the USA....

Best to download the charts for your area (the free ones not to be used for navigation purposes from Airservices Aus or CASA - cant remember where I got them from) and know your airspace.  So I know the routes of the sightseeing planes and of course I've got both RNS and Channel 9 heliports in my area too .  As I said I'm in a NOTAM area that can be restricted so I can use freely available online services to check (http://www.rocketroute.com/notam.php?lang=pt&icao=YSSY).  Note that these don't meed the legal requirement if you are flying GA or larger aircraft but it gives me the confidence to say I made an effort - which is more than most people do.  You have to pay $150 to get an ARN to get access to the system, it makes sense for full size as they need to log that you have looked at the NOTAM's and which ones.

I have a mate who is working on his fullsize commercial rating at present and he has suggested a few apps to look at, some are approved by CASA for use in GA.

Regards,

Chris
Toyota Prado (96) - 90 Series & Skamper Kamper Ranger Offroad

Mitsubishi Outlander

Offline CBRK

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1673 on: March 11, 2015, 06:12:20 PM »
Got my 32 bit Alexmos gimbal controller yesterday, todays flights where with it (had to move it's location due to not fitting between the gimbal plates - it has straight header pins, I needed 90 degree bent ones....)  I also have a larger yaw motor, it's a 35XX series gimbal motor, this is much better.

So far it was easy to setup, set the PID to auto.  Motors auto detection got it really wrong, so I had to fix it up.

From the footage I filmed with it, it appears I need further tuning as there was more bumps than I'd expect.  It still had a tendency to not be centered, this is something that will require further tuning and understanding of how it works.

Also got my 4s batteries, so tomorrow I'll be upgrading it to 4s.  I have an interview tomorrow for another contract so my days of flying most days are soon to be over for another 3 to 6 months - I'll have another week of it and then it's likely to be back to work for me.  It will be some mornings before work and weekends :-(

On a plus, I'll have money to spend on the hobby again  :laugh:

Chris
« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 06:44:32 PM by CBRK »
Toyota Prado (96) - 90 Series & Skamper Kamper Ranger Offroad

Mitsubishi Outlander

Offline CBRK

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1674 on: March 11, 2015, 11:31:03 PM »
I've been exploring more of the aerial mapping / photogrammetry side of the hobby.  There about 80 overlapping images to generate the below.

Here is an orthomosaic of today's effort:


Here is a DSM (Digital Surface Model):


Video of 3D data:
3D View - Small part Blackman Park


The software creates 3D data based upon many 2D images.  With the pro version you can export it out in a range of different formats.  It is as accurate getting a surveyor in, as long as the right images are taken.  The yellow in the DSM is at a higher elevation.

The above was one with Pix4D, but unless you have the pro version it is extremely limited ($400 per month or $10K one off).  I'm now exploring VisualSFM, CMPMVS and Meshlabs which is free for non commercial use.  Hoping that I will be able to export out DEM (digital elevation model) data, to generate contour lines, etc (to make custom topographic maps).

Anyone else played with this stuff?

Regards,

Chris
« Last Edit: March 12, 2015, 01:00:06 AM by CBRK »
Toyota Prado (96) - 90 Series & Skamper Kamper Ranger Offroad

Mitsubishi Outlander