Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything

[Marschy]

I'm going to start a very touchy subject (for me at least) with regard recent events happening in the US regarding FAA regulations.

My understanding is that the FAA is about to put a blanket ban on the use of unlicensed FPV (first person view) vehicles. For those how do not know what FPV is, a camera and video transmitter are used to transmit vision, typically pointed in the forward direction, during flight of an unmanned vehicle, either a military drone, a hobby RC aircraft, or a commercial videographer to a ground station to allow the pilot to see what the aircraft sees. This is normally done as an aid in flying the aircraft and for videography/photographic purposes.

My understanding is that the FAA are banning the use of unlicensed FPV vehicles on the grounds that the 4th Amendment can be breached where privacy is invaded in relation to search and seizure when supporting probable cause. I'm not starting a US constitution argument here, if my facts are incorrect about all the relevant laws/statues etc, then I apologise.

My point has more to do with what may happen here in Australia. Now my reason for worrying this I will try to explain in a manner that is not designed to cause panic but hopefully rational discussion about how we can do to protect our hobby.

I think there is more to the blanket ban put in place in the US, than simple 4th Amendment issues.

Now I'm here in little old downtown Adelaide, and I'm looking at some of the links to videos that other swaggers have put on this thread, including myself, about incidences that have occured, with multicopters in particular, in the recent past. Then the videos with machine guns hung under a commercially made quadcopter. Now for me, it's not hard to put one and one together.

Now putting my "if I was a government paranoid about attack internally or externally" hat on, and thinking if people had these machines in there hands that can be purchased with a reasonable amount of anonymity, that can be flown remotely for distances over 10km and more, can carry potentially deadly payloads (recent examples of machine guns, but the imagination doesn't need to stretch far to see where this could go), would I as a government be worried?

What do you think can be done to mitigate this possible issue?

[CBRK]

Hi Marschy,

My understanding is that the FAA is about to put a blanket ban on the use of unlicensed FPV (first person view) vehicles. For those how do not know what FPV is, a camera and video transmitter are used to transmit vision, typically pointed in the forward direction, during flight of an unmanned vehicle, either a military drone, a hobby RC aircraft, or a commercial videographer to a ground station to allow the pilot to see what the aircraft sees. This is normally done as an aid in flying the aircraft and for videography/photographic purposes.

They already have, the interpretive rule says that FPV are not model aircraft therefore they are an sUAV or UAV or aircraft.  If they are not model aircraft the FAA has regulatory power.  So the ban is in effect right now.  Not many are following it through.....

Did everyone know that commercial sUAS or UAS are illegal in the US, only the government can fly them.....

It also goes against case law which says it is a model aircraft.   The Trappy vs FAA case is the test case, although it is on older legislation the new legislation was supposed to prevent this from happening, looks like their congress screwed up.  They didnt define model R/C aircraft in the act, now the FAA is making up it's own definition.

My understanding is that the FAA are banning the use of unlicensed FPV vehicles on the grounds that the 4th Amendment can be breached where privacy is invaded in relation to search and seizure when supporting probable cause. I'm not starting a US constitution argument here, if my facts are incorrect about all the relevant laws/statues etc, then I apologise.

Not a 4th Amendment issue as that applies for government or government agents to the public.  There are plenty of supreme court rulings upholding this particular item. 

It is however a privacy concern and that is one of the real reasons behind the regulation.  There are minority of FPVer's who dont abide by reasonable guideline and they are making it easier for the FAA to push this as an aircraft safety issue.  If FPVer's kept to under 400ft then there is no real issue.  This is a problem as it moves from a hobby item to a consumer item, more idiots go and do stupid things (kinda like with cars and our roads).

My point has more to do with what may happen here in Australia. Now my reason for worrying this I will try to explain in a manner that is not designed to cause panic but hopefully rational discussion about how we can do to protect our hobby.

I think there is more to the blanket ban put in place in the US, than simple 4th Amendment issues.

Now I'm here in little old downtown Adelaide, and I'm looking at some of the links to videos that other swaggers have put on this thread, including myself, about incidences that have occured, with multicopters in particular, in the recent past. Then the videos with machine guns hung under a commercially made quadcopter. Now for me, it's not hard to put one and one together.

Now putting my "if I was a government paranoid about attack internally or externally" hat on, and thinking if people had these machines in there hands that can be purchased with a reasonable amount of anonymity, that can be flown remotely for distances over 10km and more, can carry potentially deadly payloads (recent examples of machine guns, but the imagination doesn't need to stretch far to see where this could go), would I as a government be worried?

What do you think can be done to mitigate this possible issue?

It's worse for us in the FPV world, from what I can understand of the CASA regs we also dont meet the model R/C aircraft and therefore technically need an RPA license from CASA (needed for income generating work, there are lots of people licensed for this).  Base cost assuming you use the CASA sample material would be 4K plus.  A few processes you have to follow in order to make sure you are safe, maintenance and training.

Now I intend to eventually fly FPV but with a monitor and dont intend to apply for CASA RPA license.  I also dont intend to fly out of LOS for the time being.

I think it will be a case of wait and see, there is not a lot we can do here.  I think in the end commercial use of drones will be allowed, it will be how much regulation goes into it.  I worry that the hobby element which has really brought this technology along will be disallowed, but I would say that due to lack of enforcement it will be a case of go after you when it goes bad.

In terms of using them as weapon's it will occur with or without regulation, so i suggest that is something the government will have to deal with it with other measures.  Best not to piss off your population so they feel they need to do it.....  Not something the US has a good track record of....

[CBRK]

Hi,

Had another test flight today, nice feeling to bring the tricopter home without a broken prop or new landing gear needing to be cut!  I did break a few zip ties on a hard landing but that's whey they are there.

Mental note, dont try to fly in high wind days.    Was hard to keep it hovering in place without the auto level.  Even with it on it would drift.  I think I might have to look at the multiWii board.

I had a total flight time around 14 mins today, landed with battery at 11.3 which is fantastic.  I now need to weigh my machine to find out what the AUW is.

I setup my camera on a tripod today, so once I've reviewed the footage I'll try to upload it.

I made some changes for today, firstly I used dual rates of 50 on Elevator, Rudder, Ailerons.  I also used Expo's of 60% for them all.  I'm thinking I got the Elevator and Ailerons right, the rudder is too sluggish for my liking.  I think I'll take it back to D/R 75 and Expo 30%  and try again.

Just got the fatshark pilotHD 720p camera, wishing I had read the reviews beforehand, should have gone the mobius.....    Oh well will try it tonight (on the bench), I'm not sure if my FPV receiver or FPV transmitter is working properly as I dont get a signal from my other camera.  Hoping it's a camera issue, if not then I'll buy another receiver / transmitter combo and work out which one it is.  I'm pretty sure it's not the transmitter as I can see the current draw go up as I plug in the camera feed so I'm thinking it's the receiver in the LCD screen I've got.  So handy to have a test power supply. 

I'm thinking I'll be right to sling the 1080p camera on the tri this weekend if the wind comes down a bit, so should have the 720p from the front cam and 1080p from the action cam.

Regards,

Chris

[Crisp Image]

I think the CASA are going down the path that any UAV under 2kg will not need to be licenced. Well that is a bugger cause I am about 2.4kg this means I need to loose some weight but 400g is most likely not going to happen.
Did we see the person who has been referred to DPP because his UAV crashed in to a runner on a Triathlon in W.A?
This is why we as genuine people have trouble. The owner is claiming it frequency hopped and he lost control.
I am not sure how that works but he must have been too close to people when it happened.
I do not think CASA will ban our toys however they may restrict our usage to "Dedicated flying sites" which sucks as I am about capturing photos and video of places I visit.
Responsible flying is what we need to do.
And we also need to remember the privacy thing too.
Regards
Crispy

[CBRK]

I think the CASA are going down the path that any UAV under 2kg will not need to be licenced. Well that is a bugger cause I am about 2.4kg this means I need to loose some weight but 400g is most likely not going to happen.
Did we see the person who has been referred to DPP because his UAV crashed in to a runner on a Triathlon in W.A?
This is why we as genuine people have trouble. The owner is claiming it frequency hopped and he lost control.
I am not sure how that works but he must have been too close to people when it happened.
I do not think CASA will ban our toys however they may restrict our usage to "Dedicated flying sites" which sucks as I am about capturing photos and video of places I visit.
Responsible flying is what we need to do.
And we also need to remember the privacy thing too.
Regards
Crispy

Hi Crispy

On further reading I agree, I had missed the deregulation proposal by CASA for 2kg and under.  Great to see an aviation authority use there head for once.  Will have to wait a few more months for it to be finalised though, but it looks like we'll be fine.

Pretty sure mine is sitting just on 700g with the 2200mAH battery (this is a guesstimate).  Once I put the 5000mAH and camera on I should still have plenty of spare before I hit the 2kg.  I will weight it in the morning.

Chris

[Marschy]

The Pilot HD camera is crap in low light. The Hobbyking 700tvl camera with the OSD controls on the back of the camera is much better, and the cable is simple without having to worry about OSD controls being built into the cable making it too bulky.

My all up weight so far is 1906 grams and I have about another 100 grams to go with the OSD card plus whatever the props weigh so I'll be close to if not over the limit.

As soon as you add crab landing gear you immediately get carried away chucking stuff on the quad. I've spent hours cutting ESC and servo leads to length to get the quad as tidy as possible and save weight.

[CBRK]

Hi guys,

Finally uploaded some videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_e8d6T1GbI&list=UUYFUqy_lwTRdQLjS0ZBkHNw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lty1tej9cG0&index=2&list=UUYFUqy_lwTRdQLjS0ZBkHNw

Chris

[Marschy]

Gotta be happy with that. What camera are you using there?

[CBRK]

Gotta be happy with that. What camera are you using there?

Hi Marschy,

Definitely happy with it, building the proper frame today to hold it.

Its just a cheap 1080p action cam, it was zip tied to the tricopter for in air and on a full tripod for ground video.

I plan to mount the pilot hd cam in that spot and action cam on the mount underneath. Will put a basic gimbal on it in the future.

Im thinking of trying the ardu boards, bit pricey but for full telemtry, baro, gps and exandable in future. Has anyone tried them?

Chris

[Marschy]

No, haven't tried the ardu boards, but I will be soon. I'm going to have a look at the new HK APM 2.7. This is going to go on the Reptile-Aphid frame.

I love building these things. Gotta pull my finger out and finish the F450. Just hooking up the MinimOSD to the FPV video, then I'll be ready for tuning and first flight, probably next weekend or the one after.

[Bird]

Found the one I want
 Bell 430 from Heli-Factory

Bell 430 RC Turbine Helicopter LX-MARC 1st Flight

In Cockpit voice module!

Bell 430 RC Turbine Helicopter LX-MARC Full Flight

[Marschy]

Im thinking of trying the ardu boards, bit pricey but for full telemtry, baro, gps and exandable in future. Has anyone tried them?

I've just ordered the APM 2.6 board and another MinimOSD for my Reptile-Aphid frame. I'll let you know how the APM goes once it arrives next week. I think these boards are very reasonably priced if you buy a full kit, including telemetry, power module, GPS. I've just ordered this one from Aliexpress with DHL delivery in 3-6 days. I had to get the MinimOSD board separately as it was not included in this flight board kit, but got it from the same supplier which saved a bit on shipping.

APM2.6 ArduPilot UAV Flight Controller APM 2.6+ 6M GPS w/ Compass+Power Module+ 915Mhz 3DR Radio Telemetry

If you looking at the MinimOSD board, get the updated board with primary and secondary voltage monitors that are broken out from the chip, otherwise you will have a very tricky soldering job in front of you to solder wire directly to the Atmega chip on the early v0.1 boards. I made this mistake with my first one, and have now ordered a new one.

[CBRK]

No, haven't tried the ardu boards, but I will be soon. I'm going to have a look at the new HK APM 2.7. This is going to go on the Reptile-Aphid frame.

I love building these things. Gotta pull my finger out and finish the F450. Just hooking up the MinimOSD to the FPV video, then I'll be ready for tuning and first flight, probably next weekend or the one after.

Grrr, I ordered a few days the same thing but via HK, so a bit more expensive......  Around $160-$170 worth instead.  MinimOSD was on top of that too.  Also playing the waiting game......

[Marschy]

I've got the wiring for the camera, MinimOSD, Video Tx and power supply sorted out. Now have to solder some header pins onto the MultiWii serial port zero pin holes for telemetry. I have it connected up at the moment to serial port one, but it doesn't support telemetry without rewriting the firmware. So solder it is.

Here is a snapshot of the view via the fpv camera with the OSD working, but not talking to the flight control board.

[Marschy]

Found the one I want
 Bell 430 from Heli-Factory
Bell 430 RC Turbine Helicopter LX-MARC 1st Flight

In Cockpit voice module!
Bell 430 RC Turbine Helicopter LX-MARC Full Flight

Finally got a chance to watch, can't access youtube at work. Isn't this thing awesome? This would have to go through some sort of airworthiness inspection to be flown at public events in most places around the world. See how fast those big blades are moving, imagine one coming off.

[Bird]

Finally got a chance to watch, can't access youtube at work. Isn't this thing awesome? This would have to go through some sort of airworthiness inspection to be flown at public events in most places around the world. See how fast those big blades are moving, imagine one coming off.

yea, that gives me wood... 3500euro... for the basic thing
and a LOT of training to learn to fly it I bet... but check their website, they make a dozen in that scale, some beautiful machines.. some are 9000euro for base unit!!

[edz]

Ok now this is realy a lazy way to fish, Wonder how good it would be to take a baited hook out behind the breakers and drop it when surf fishing  ... Beats trying to cast that far.... mmmmmmm might have to try that ..
Pacific Islanders have kite fished the reef surrounding their islands  althrough  ages and the japs use RC boats to get lines out further to sea from the coast .
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFr0m1MTYuo

[Marschy]

The first MinimOSD I bought was like this. To use the battery voltage monitoring functionality you have to solder a wire to one of the terminals on the Atmega chip.



I'm learning with this hobby that as soon as it says you need to solder wire to a surface mount chip terminal, start looking for other options. So now I'm waiting for a later model of the same board to be delivered that breaks out some more of the features on the chip to the row of pin holes along the bottom of the board.



Now I'm waiting for the new one to arrive after completely buggering up my first one by trying to solder a wire to a surface mount chip and bridging about 3 terminals on the chip with solder and not being able to clean it up without it shorting between terminals. PITA

[CBRK]

Hi,

I hate doing surface mount components, they are so much harder, but a great skill to have.  I buggered a FPV transmitter up by having a camera on reverse polarity, lucky I have a friend who designs this stuff for his day job (R&D Engineer) .  He's seeing if he as any spare surface mount ferrites that is blown and will do the repair for me too.  I'll be responsible for any further repairs, as he'll hopefully give a few spare ferrites.  He just orders samples for this stuff :-).  Cant believe that the Boscam FPV transmitters dont have some form of diode before it to protect it, no they put it after it ..

These things are one of the reasons why I like the hobby, it gets you really into it to understand stuff.  I never knew there was an ability to put an inline ferrite, I'd always used the coils to reduce interference.

My tricopter now has the FPV camera mounted since I got my spare FPV transmitter in the mail the other day.  Tests in the house are pretty good so far.  Planning my first FPV flight on Friday morning before work.  I've also reconfigured my battery so it will hang underneath the frame and be more in line with the desired CG.  Had to put on small strips of timber to stop the battery from sliding out the front or back, had that happen before and it doesnt cope well with a sudden change in CG and then a swinging CG    Lucky that was in one of the early test flights so I do learn as I go 

I plan to organise my FC's so that I can detach the KK2 and attach the APM board or the other way around.  I plan to mount them onto there own ply board and have this bolt onto the tricopter frame.  Just that I like the KK2 but know that I'll want to use the APM a fair bit but some days I'll just want the simple board.

For the KK2 Flight Controller, I'm pairing it with a simple OSD with GPS.  Should have checked the pin outs before ordering it, only has one vid connection.  I'm not keen on rewiring the camera so now I need to build a harness.

For the APM board I've got the power module, GPS module and the minimOSD.  Also picked up the telemetry radio set too (915MHz).  I also picked up an LED control board to for some lights but that's a future dream.

I also am now planning on how to mount my new go pro onto small camera gimbal I've got on the way.  I'm annoyed I'd been eyeing off a really simple gimbal for $14 that was perfect for the gopro and when I went to order it, surprise it's on back order, grrrr.  Would have been so much easier, sigh.  I will keep an eye out and order it if if comes of back order.  What have others used to mount their action cam on a cheap gimbal?  I can isolate the gimbal to reduce vibration.

I'm still waiting for my APM Mega stuff to arrive, should be any day now :-)  Why is the mail so slow.......

Ordered another 2 2200mah 3s Lipo's and another 5000mah 3s Lipo.

Things to still do:
Build the lipo bunker - been using bags for the time being.
Remount the KK2 Board on to an easily removable tray
Mount the simpleOSD
Test flight of the FPV gear
Attach simple mount for GoPro
Build gimbal mount for GoPro
More test flights 
Wait for APM Mega to arrive   

Chris

[Marschy]

My APM 2.6 stuff arrives today, currently with the courier for delivery (yippee). This shipment has the replacement minimOSD that I stuffed up. This is the only thing I am waiting on to get the F450 back in the air.

The Reptile-Aphid frame arrived as well. Not overly happy with the type of plastic used in the arms. The goodluckbuy website states nylon, but they are more likely acrylic, and more easily broken than nylon.

Check out the gimbal I bought from Goodluckbuy for $59 US. Works like a charm, but you will need undercarriage. This is the same as the one used by Mandrake as well. They come in various colours.

[CBRK]

My APM 2.6 stuff arrives today, currently with the courier for delivery (yippee). This shipment has the replacement minimOSD that I stuffed up. This is the only thing I am waiting on to get the F450 back in the air.

The Reptile-Aphid frame arrived as well. Not overly happy with the type of plastic used in the arms. The goodluckbuy website states nylon, but they are more likely acrylic, and more easily broken than nylon.

Check out the gimbal I bought from Goodluckbuy for $59 US. Works like a charm, but you will need undercarriage. This is the same as the one used by Mandrake as well. They come in various colours.

Grrr, so jealous, my parcel doesn't have very good tracking so all I know is that it left the international warehouse on the 26th.....  I'm sure it'll be here any moment 

I'll check out the gimbal, hoping to not spend alot on this, I saw one guy who designed his own gimbal attach plates such that it was using steel wire and it was pretty good compared to the rubber balls.  So for the $59 are they 360 degree servos?  I notice it's got a control board, do the servo's have the ability for external control?  So can I add say my output from ch-8 and 9 to control tilt and pan?

My landing gear is adjustable, just add longer 12mmx12mm pine legs, that's the beauty of a scratch build.  They are currently around 15cm long but nothing stopping me extending those.

I was thinking of putting it so that it is mounted to my camera tray but projects up and out the front, so I don't have to put longer legs on.  One of my reasons for relocating the battery further back.

Chris

[Marschy]

Grrr, so jealous, my parcel doesn't have very good tracking so all I know is that it left the international warehouse on the 26th.....  I'm sure it'll be here any moment  AliExpress, I swear by it, I'm over ebay's lack of shipping options and hobbyking taking my money and still requiring close to 10 working days to deliver.

I'll check out the gimbal, hoping to not spend alot on this, I saw one guy who designed his own gimbal attach plates such that it was using steel wire and it was pretty good compared to the rubber balls.  So for the $59 are they 360 degree servos?  I notice it's got a control board, do the servo's have the ability for external control?  So can I add say my output from ch-8 and 9 to control tilt and pan? Yes, Brushless = 360, servo = sometimes 360, yes comes with servo cables for radio pan/tilt control.

I was thinking of putting it so that it is mounted to my camera tray but projects up and out the front, so I don't have to put longer legs on.  One of my reasons for relocating the battery further back. Have a look at some of the frames with gimbals on Goodluckbuy, many, including my Reptile-Aphid, come with a camera gimbal already mounted to the frame that do not require high undercarriage. Some of these frame gimbals are for FPV camera's, others for flight HD camera. If you do a search for 'frame gimbal' on their website, it comes up with a heap of cool frames.

Cheers, Marschy

[Marschy]

Picked up my APM2.6 flight control board and other stuff from Aliexpress via DHL today. I was a bit worried after I purchased the APM, the Aliexpress store closed. All good though.

Once I get the minimOSD board sorted, the F450 will be ready for it's first flight with the MultiWii board.

It's going to be interesting if there is a marked difference in performance between the MultiWii and the APM2.6. I'll soon know.

[Mandrake]

Saw this on Facebook today - Its used to count cattle on a remote station ... BIG AINT IT ... The one inside the ute tray .. Not my little Phantom resting on the tailgate !!

[Marschy]

Saw this on Facebook today - Its used to count cattle on a remote station ... BIG AINT IT ... The one inside the ute tray .. Not my little Phantom resting on the tailgate !!

Can't see the photo in the thread, but can on your 'Myswag Photos' folder on your web site. Just a little difference is size there, wow. What is the wheel base?