Author Topic: Swap and Go or Refill?  (Read 21694 times)

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Offline DaveR

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Re: Swap and Go or Refill?
« Reply #50 on: January 03, 2014, 06:10:22 AM »
There is one thing to consider when doing the swap thing is to check the date of the cylinder they are trying to give you.
I got from bunnings in December a swap 4.5 kg for the camper, didn't check anything just plugged it in and went. It lasted no time at all when compared to the old cyl, that I had filled by the camping supply shop near by. The cyl from bunnings had a test date of feb 2001, so I was not able to get it filled where we were.
Yesterday, I took it back empty and said that it was out of date and to make sure you give me a new cylinder which is IN DATE.
Funny thing is I was told "They are tested ever time they are filled", to which I smile and asked for the proof, eventually, I found a bloke there who knew exactly what a test date is for, we went to the cage and found several cyl's out of date, filled, ready to go.
I scored a 6 month old cyl from them, shall now expect to cook 6 meals only, and nothing else, then get it filled as before.
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Offline Bunyip

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Re: Swap and Go or Refill?
« Reply #51 on: January 03, 2014, 06:25:17 AM »
We chuck our bottles on the batroom scales. The dry weight is stamped on the bottle so it is easy to tell if you ahve been ripped off in a refill. Up until we moved I got my bottles filled at the local service station. He would start it off then ask me to turn it off when it was done so that made sure we were never short changed.
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Offline Mik01

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Re: Swap and Go or Refill?
« Reply #52 on: January 03, 2014, 10:52:00 AM »
swap bottles are filled and weighed with digital scales, guaranteeing correct amount of gas is provided every time.
due to it being a packaged retail good, the content weight must be correct every time, or the company risks action from regulators.

you have more chance of being 'ripped off' having the gas filled yourself than by buying a swap gas product. here's why -   

when having it filled yourself, the filler used to know it is completely full when the gas vents through the bleed screw - this is achieved when the gas is filled up to the 'dip tube' that hangs from the bottom of the valve. problem is, there are varied lengths of dip tubes, and cylinder sizes vary slightly (ie some overseas cylinders have a lower volume capacity) - which can result in more or less gas content with each slightly different cylinder.

so if you have a longer 'dip tube', you get less gas by having it filled yourself.  if you have a shorter dip tube, or no dip tube (as happens) - you risk carrying an overfull cylinder which is a safety hazard.  it is now a regulation that cylinders must have 20% empty space to allow for expansion in hot weather conditions, and so reducing the occurrence that they will automatically vent.

this came about mostly due to mums and dads buying overfilled cylinders, throwing them in the car on a hot day (with the kids etc), and leaving them there while they shop elsewhere. 

to ensure no one overfills and is potentially liable for any action arising from an accident, I would suspect that fillers MAY not fill to the point of the gas venting from the bleed screw, or rather fill by 'feel' of weight etc. 

another point raised here related to the out of date stamp - sure there are times when an out of date cylinder may slip through into the swap cage.  however we used to inspect, re-valve and pressure test every out of date cylinder that came through from the public prior to filling. and then the cylinder is re-stamped with a new date (and painted if required).

the old date will usually still remain on the cylinder - the operator will usually re-stamp the new date near to the old, but sometimes this isn't possible.  just because you see an old date, doesn't mean that the new date isn't elsewhere and that the cylinder is perfectly safe and has been re-generated.  my advice is to inspect the cowling around the valve closely for the date stamp - when painted, they can be hard to read at times.

I may be totally wrong, and I wasn't there, but I find it hard to believe that multiple kwikgas cylinders in a bunnings cage were out of date and presented for sale.  if you are adamant there were no other date stamps on the cylinders, and each had the blue valve insert (ie they were filled and ready for sale), you should call Kleenheat and report it, or call the Gas Examiner's office in your State or Territory. 
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Offline D4D

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Re: Swap and Go or Refill?
« Reply #53 on: January 03, 2014, 11:27:54 AM »
another point raised here related to the out of date stamp - sure there are times when an out of date cylinder may slip through into the swap cage.  however we used to inspect, re-valve and pressure test every out of date cylinder that came through from the public prior to filling. and then the cylinder is re-stamped with a new date (and painted if required).

I queried this when I was delivered 2 out of date bottles in a row from Kleenheat and there was no other date stamp on the bottle. When I called Kleenheat, they said yes the re-tested them but didn't re-stamp them...
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Offline Mik01

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Re: Swap and Go or Refill?
« Reply #54 on: January 03, 2014, 12:06:08 PM »
I queried this when I was delivered 2 out of date bottles in a row from Kleenheat and there was no other date stamp on the bottle. When I called Kleenheat, they said yes the re-tested them but didn't re-stamp them...


fair enough, I believe you - it is incredible to me that they would break the law though
just did a quick google on this - see Kleenheat's response to the same question -

http://whrl.pl/RdjKqT

I worked for the 'other mob'.  by law, all cylinders are required to be tested, 're-valved' and re-stamped when out of date and intended to be refilled for sale.
I cannot understand why they wouldn't be re-stamped - it takes 5 seconds with the stamping press and must be recorded.
I've seen the whole process many times, and its very simple and straightforward.

the stamp also has a unique code identifying the approved testing station that carried out the refurb as well as the year of refurb - it is a requirement that this stamp is placed onto the cylinder - no ifs or buts.

would be interested who at Kleenheat said this to you - I bet they wouldn't provide that comment in writing.
straight up - it is NOT legal to fill a cylinder that does not have a current in date stamp
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Offline D4D

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Re: Swap and Go or Refill?
« Reply #55 on: January 03, 2014, 12:50:41 PM »
would be interested who at Kleenheat said this to you - I bet they wouldn't provide that comment in writing.

Comment came from both the delivery driver and the customer service rep at the call centre. It's no stress I just take an in date bottle now.
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Offline nab

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Re: Swap and Go or Refill?
« Reply #56 on: January 03, 2014, 01:49:58 PM »
I use the Swap & Go at my local Stratco, $21.95 a pop.

The bottles original date is out of code, unsure if it has been restamped. I asked them about out of date bottles and they said as long as it has the Swap & Go sticker on it they will exchange it regardless of the date as all their bottles get tested.

Sounded OK to me, haven't had any issues yet...
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Offline Murph

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Re: Swap and Go or Refill?
« Reply #57 on: January 03, 2014, 02:14:00 PM »
Wow ! I can't believe they get away with that!! I feel sorry for the first poor unfortunate person who is dealing with the insurance company on the replacement for their burnt out CT or compensation for the demise of a family member !!! 

Offline Jenko67

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Re: Swap and Go or Refill?
« Reply #58 on: January 03, 2014, 02:18:55 PM »
Swap and go.... Never ever had a problem and will always use them. I get mine from Bunnings...
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 03:31:51 PM by Jenko67 »

Offline prodigyrf

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Re: Swap and Go or Refill?
« Reply #59 on: January 03, 2014, 03:19:34 PM »
Yep I've picked up full out of date bottles with no obvious restamp on them and discovered that when I went to get it filled which is rare nowadays as it's too costly labour wise. As a result I always check a new swap for a healthy use by date stamp.
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Offline 02-SR5

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Re: Swap and Go or Refill?
« Reply #60 on: January 03, 2014, 03:35:00 PM »
I was at Rays outdoors today looking at getting another 4kg bottle for the webber.

Their deal, you have to buy a brand new bottle, then swap it for one of their swap and go second jobbies out the front.

I didn't get one.
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Offline sol

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Re: Swap and Go or Refill?
« Reply #61 on: January 03, 2014, 03:38:56 PM »
I was at Rays outdoors today looking at getting another 4kg bottle for the webber.

Their deal, you have to buy a brand new bottle, then swap it for one of their swap and go second jobbies out the front.

I didn't get one.

        Then they go and put the new one back on the shelf to sell ???

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Offline prodigyrf

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Re: Swap and Go or Refill?
« Reply #62 on: January 03, 2014, 03:53:00 PM »
Re out of date swap bottles there is an explanation when you think about it. The law says we can't refill out of date bottles but it doesn't say anything about having to empty them the moment they're out of date and so you can see how they might be in date when filled by the swap mobs but a few months out of date particularly if it gets tucked away at the back of the swap cage (ie the bottle deliverer doesn't bother pulling the back ones out and sticking the new ones in their place). Then you hitch it up to the barbie out back for a year or so or don't use the camper for months and guess what when you're out bush and want it filled? It's why I make sure I get a swap that's well in date nowadays a bit like checking use by dates in the supermart fridge.
There's no Great Evil conspiracy against consumers within engineering, manufacturing and supply. Just the many tradeoffs incurred to satisfy diverse tastes, priorities and wallets. But first comes all the insatiable Gummint eggsperts, nanny-staters and usual suspects.

Offline prodigyrf

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Re: Swap and Go or Refill?
« Reply #63 on: January 03, 2014, 04:09:46 PM »
Both kwikgas and swap n go accept out of date bottles as straight swaps.
and what's more they take each others' clearly marked bottles as I discovered. Mind you that may explain the multiple layers of thick paint on some that make them a real joy getting in and out of the holder.
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Offline gordo350

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Re: Swap and Go or Refill?
« Reply #64 on: January 03, 2014, 04:25:40 PM »
Re out of date swap bottles there is an explanation when you think about it. The law says we can't refill out of date bottles but it doesn't say anything about having to empty them the moment they're out of date and so you can see how they might be in date when filled by the swap mobs but a few months out of date particularly if it gets tucked away at the back of the swap cage (ie the bottle deliverer doesn't bother pulling the back ones out and sticking the new ones in their place). Then you hitch it up to the barbie out back for a year or so or don't use the camper for months and guess what when you're out bush and want it filled? It's why I make sure I get a swap that's well in date nowadays a bit like checking use by dates in the supermart fridge.
The law is a funny thing.  I don't want to try to explain to the coroner why I thought if was a good idea to use an out of date bottle.

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Offline Mik01

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Re: Swap and Go or Refill?
« Reply #65 on: January 03, 2014, 04:35:06 PM »
Re out of date swap bottles there is an explanation when you think about it. The law says we can't refill out of date bottles but it doesn't say anything about having to empty them the moment they're out of date and so you can see how they might be in date when filled by the swap mobs but a few months out of date particularly if it gets tucked away at the back of the swap cage (ie the bottle deliverer doesn't bother pulling the back ones out and sticking the new ones in their place). Then you hitch it up to the barbie out back for a year or so or don't use the camper for months and guess what when you're out bush and want it filled? It's why I make sure I get a swap that's well in date nowadays a bit like checking use by dates in the supermart fridge.

Yes... And no.

If it had less than 6mths left in date, we would retest and restamp etc and put it back out there.
Drivers are responsible for stock rotation in cages, but it does happen that crappy ones sit in the back corners - these are usually identifiable by being the dirtiest in the cage. But they would have to sit around for a while for this to happen.
But it's easy for it to go out of date while you have it.

If you have any thoughts of refilling, then insist on as much date as possible when you swap.
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Offline prodigyrf

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Re: Swap and Go or Refill?
« Reply #66 on: January 03, 2014, 04:59:01 PM »
If it had less than 6mths left in date, we would retest and restamp etc and put it back out there.

Just good practice but no legal requirement for you do so I presume and you can fill them right up to the legal expiry date?

Edit: And while we're on the topic, if the bottle is stamped 01-2004 then can you only refill legally up to the end of Dec 2013 or the end of Jan 2014?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 05:10:01 PM by prodigyrf »
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Offline DaveR

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Re: Swap and Go or Refill?
« Reply #67 on: January 03, 2014, 06:43:37 PM »
Edit: And while we're on the topic, if the bottle is stamped 01-2004 then can you only refill legally up to the end of Dec 2013 or the end of Jan 2014?

In the industry I normally work in, we have a lot of pressure vessels which I am responsible for, most for breathing gasses, some for human occupancy, we work on the safe side of the 1 month date stamp with the theory of "what is 1 month in 10 years".
I would assume this would carry over to other presser vessels as well, such as gas cylinders.

My edit bit,
Doe's anyone have a copy of the AS for this by any chance? That removes any arguments and "I think" statements from us all.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 06:45:24 PM by DaveR »
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Offline Mik01

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Re: Swap and Go or Refill?
« Reply #68 on: January 03, 2014, 07:25:02 PM »
Just good practice but no legal requirement for you do so I presume and you can fill them right up to the legal expiry date?

Edit: And while we're on the topic, if the bottle is stamped 01-2004 then can you only refill legally up to the end of Dec 2013 or the end of Jan 2014?

Yes, just good practice.
End of December in this scenario. We don't know what day it was tested in January previously.
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Offline Mik01

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Re: Swap and Go or Refill?
« Reply #69 on: January 03, 2014, 07:36:06 PM »
In the industry I normally work in, we have a lot of pressure vessels which I am responsible for, most for breathing gasses, some for human occupancy, we work on the safe side of the 1 month date stamp with the theory of "what is 1 month in 10 years".
I would assume this would carry over to other presser vessels as well, such as gas cylinders.

My edit bit,
Doe's anyone have a copy of the AS for this by any chance? That removes any arguments and "I think" statements from us all.


I don't have a copy, however each state has legislation that covers safe handling and use of lpg. Try workcover NSW for example for specific information and regulations in NSW -
http://www.workcover.nsw.gov.au/formspublications/publications/Documents/filling_refillable_gas_cylinders_fact_sheet_2231.pdf

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Offline Glennp

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Re: Swap and Go or Refill?
« Reply #70 on: January 03, 2014, 08:19:24 PM »
a regulation that cylinders must have 20% empty space to allow for expansion in hot weather conditions, and so reducing the occurrence that they will automatically vent.

So is this why 9kg bottles are now all 8.5kg bottles?

I thought it was just a conspiracy by swap and go to rip me off with less gas!

Offline Mik01

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Re: Swap and Go or Refill?
« Reply #71 on: January 03, 2014, 08:27:46 PM »
So is this why 9kg bottles are now all 8.5kg bottles?

I thought it was just a conspiracy by swap and go to rip me off with less gas!

Yes mate. A lot of our cylinders are manufactured in Thailand and have a smaller liquid capacity than locally manufactured ones. This meant that they were technically being overfilled, with 9kg of gas each.

So, less gas. But no price reduction of course!
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