Author Topic: Banning Of Camper Trailers in Desert Sand Dune Areas Lower Your Pressures  (Read 22365 times)

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Offline bushbandit

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Just read an interesting article in a copy of "On The Road" April 2012 page 102 if anyones interested.

It goes on to say that camper trailers are being blamed for chewing up four wheel drive tracks in the sand dune country ie Simpson Desert and tracks west of Alice etc.It also says that the National Parks are getting in on the act and trying to stop Camper Trailers in the above areas.Canning Stock Route was also mentioned.Anyway the author says the major problem is drivers NOT lowering there tyre pressures on either the vehicle or the CT,which inturn is chewing up the dunes.He does defend the Camper Trailer itself but not the people who don't lower the pressures.It will only be a matter of time before CTs are banned from some of these areas. Sounds like we are doing the Simpson and Desert gathering Trips in the nick of time.
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Offline GeeTee

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Re: Banning Of Camper Trailers in Desert Sand Dune Areas Lower Your Pressures
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2013, 02:27:10 PM »
possibly old news, but yes as tyre pressure is an absolutely fundamentally basic aspect of off-road driving, this is sadly indicative of people attempting terrain without the proper skills, knowledge or preparation that just a few years ago would have been regarded as mandatory

In my opinion - and I'm sure a few will disagree - it's good that Parks are discouraging trailers. It may make people think twice about the scope of what they are attempting, and save a whole lot of damage and may in fact kick-in a better, sustainable, management plan in the future 


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Offline BigJules

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Re: Banning Of Camper Trailers in Desert Sand Dune Areas Lower Your Pressures
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2013, 03:08:27 PM »
I'm not sure I agree. There is no definitive evidence of how corrugations are caused. I think this is another case of the "I'm so damn tough, I use a piece of spinifex to sleep under" brigade. They see camper trailer owners as soft folks from the city with no idea about the bush/driving/real Australia.
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Re: Banning Of Camper Trailers in Desert Sand Dune Areas Lower Your Pressures
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2013, 03:22:54 PM »
possibly old news, but yes as tyre pressure is an absolutely fundamentally basic aspect of off-road driving, this is sadly indicative of people attempting terrain without the proper skills, knowledge or preparation that just a few years ago would have been regarded as mandatory

In my opinion - and I'm sure a few will disagree - it's good that Parks are discouraging trailers. It may make people think twice about the scope of what they are attempting, and save a whole lot of damage and may in fact kick-in a better, sustainable, management plan in the future
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Offline Murph

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Re: Banning Of Camper Trailers in Desert Sand Dune Areas Lower Your Pressures
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2013, 03:47:15 PM »
In my opinion it is the explosion of interest in the outdoors because of the Internet ! Sites such as this one is so comprehensive in its information on so many aspects of camping and camper building ect. That fact alone gives a complete newbie the pretence to be a complete guru on their first trip! The older among us had to acquire all this knowalage over a considerable time and along the way make the mistakes that were inevitable with such ways of learning! Yeah I know I can hear the missiles incoming !!! Lol!   But I mean this post in the best possible way ! I'm not putting down anyone in particular but the simple fact that some people are not driving to the conditions that confront them suggests to me that there is a sizeable minority who are time poor !  So even the smallest trip is hurried and not so well planed.
I do a lot of gold prospecting and I'm having the same problems of people gaining so much knowalage so quickly  they are trying to run a marathon before the can walk a mile correctly !
So what can  be done to save the outdoors from being truncated so much that the huge amount of people will make a huge impact on the areas we are corralled into by the various departments ! I have seen that happen ,small area ,lots of traffic, department closes the area down .
I see a big role for sites such as this and it falls to the more experienced of us to help correct  bad behaviour or just uninformed actions with calm rational information when ever we see it happening .

Offline briann532

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Re: Banning Of Camper Trailers in Desert Sand Dune Areas Lower Your Pressures
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2013, 03:54:10 PM »
I'm not sure I agree. There is no definitive evidence of how corrugations are caused. I think this is another case of the "I'm so damn tough, I use a piece of spinifex to sleep under" brigade. They see camper trailer owners as soft folks from the city with no idea about the bush/driving/real Australia.

x2.

I am also yet to have anyone prove that lowering pressure on the "dragging" wheels of a trailer is of any benefit.
The idea behind lowering tyre pressure to absorb impact and lessen the damage to a trailer I can agree with, but as far as lowering tyre pressure for corrugations or traction ???
How can adding more drag improve traction to a non driving wheel?

That vented, I do drop tyre pressure on the camper when I hit the bad stuff, but only so I don't smash my vino bottles or crack the eggs.........

Brian
Who is more than willing to be corrected with some scientific or logical knowledge.
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Re: Banning Of Camper Trailers in Desert Sand Dune Areas Lower Your Pressures
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2013, 05:12:10 PM »
I'm not sure I agree. There is no definitive evidence of how corrugations are caused. I think this is another case of the "I'm so damn tough, I use a piece of spinifex to sleep under" brigade. They see camper trailer owners as soft folks from the city with no idea about the bush/driving/real Australia.


Yes, for the reasons Murph mentioned, most travellers are city folk with all the gear and no idea. That is the problem!
Keep in mind this is from Park staff and management who don't see the 'adventure' in rescuing yet another newbie whose ambition exceeds ability, or seeing the tracks chopped to bits so they have to start placing restrictions on access 


« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 05:22:22 PM by GeeTee »

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Offline barnray

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Re: Banning Of Camper Trailers in Desert Sand Dune Areas Lower Your Pressures
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2013, 05:24:21 PM »
Lowering Tyre pressure's creates a flat area front to rear on a tyre which spreads the load over a larger area and keeps the wheel from digging in, it helps to do the same with the camper. I did a test with a trailer on a beach gradually lower the pressure and driving thru soft sand to see the results. The lower the pressure the higher the trailer came out of the sand. All I can say is I have proven it works. Barnray

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Re: Banning Of Camper Trailers in Desert Sand Dune Areas Lower Your Pressures
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2013, 05:25:21 PM »
x2.

I am also yet to have anyone prove that lowering pressure on the "dragging" wheels of a trailer is of any benefit.
The idea behind lowering tyre pressure to absorb impact and lessen the damage to a trailer I can agree with, but as far as lowering tyre pressure for corrugations or traction ???
How can adding more drag improve traction to a non driving wheel?

That vented, I do drop tyre pressure on the camper when I hit the bad stuff, but only so I don't smash my vino bottles or crack the eggs.........

Brian
Who is more than willing to be corrected with some scientific or logical knowledge.

You MUST drop tyre pressures on your trailer for the same reason as your tow rig!!

But no matter what, a trailer is another tonne, or more, of stuff on the terrain making its 'impact'

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Offline BigJules

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Banning Of Camper Trailers in Desert Sand Dune Areas Lower Your Pressures
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2013, 06:34:44 PM »
Spare me. We can't all live in the desert, but that does not automatically make everyone inexperienced or inept - even if they do lack experience.

I've been on here a long time and one thing that keeps jumping out at me is how cautious most of our members are about pushing their boundaries.
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Offline staghornflat

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Re: Banning Of Camper Trailers in Desert Sand Dune Areas Lower Your Pressures
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2013, 07:22:27 PM »
Spare me. We can't all live in the desert, but that does not automatically make everyone inexperienced or inept - even if they do lack experience.

I've been on here a long time and one thing that keeps jumping out at me is how cautious most of our members are about pushing their boundaries.
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Offline briann532

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Re: Banning Of Camper Trailers in Desert Sand Dune Areas Lower Your Pressures
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2013, 08:01:43 PM »
You MUST drop tyre pressures on your trailer for the same reason as your tow rig!!

But no matter what, a trailer is another tonne, or more, of stuff on the terrain making its 'impact'

Why?

The reason you drop tyre pressure on your rig is to increase the contact surface area to avoid slip. This slip results in a loss of traction.
A trailer is being "rolled" over the surface. In others words dragged, not creating a thrusting force over the contact area.
Have you ever tried pushing a wheelbarrow with a flat wheel?
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Re: Banning Of Camper Trailers in Desert Sand Dune Areas Lower Your Pressures
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2013, 08:07:16 PM »
Instead of arguing Mate take your trailer out the the beach and try for your self. I have and lower pressures work. Barnray

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Re: Banning Of Camper Trailers in Desert Sand Dune Areas Lower Your Pressures
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2013, 08:41:26 PM »
Instead of arguing Mate take your trailer out the the beach and try for your self. I have and lower pressures work. Barnray

Not arguing at all , just trying to get some facts.
I have tried numerous times with pressures all over the place on the camper and it didn't seem to make a difference.
My camper tyres must be big enough for it not to dig in at my usual road pressure (around 30 psi)
Car pressures - well they made a huge difference.

Again - NOT arguing, just trying to work it all out.
As I said originally, no one has given me a decent argument or scientific proof for it yet. Your remark are the first I've ever heard with some decent validity to them.

My only thesis is that by lengthening the footprint it offers a more stable and solid footing on the sand and doesn't dig in a try to climb the front mound of sand so much.
This is certainly true if you run too high a pressure, but I generally try to run lower anyway.
Once you have a stable footprint that is not digging in , then going any lower "to me" seems futile.

Now seriously I am happy to be corrected and am not "trolling" or looking for an argument. Lets face it we have the electrical section for that.
I am genuinely interested in hearing what people have to say on the matter.

Hoping to be educated,
Brian

« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 08:47:29 PM by briann532 »
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Re: Banning Of Camper Trailers in Desert Sand Dune Areas Lower Your Pressures
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2013, 09:04:36 PM »
I also get a bit sick of blaming campers. Had the same sh1t when we did the Simpson. In the end it was not that hard. Had a few challenges but the main issue was hearing those on the UHF having a laugh at how hard they could go in 2WD, they are the ones that cause the rubbish e had to get over.

I also lower the tyre pressure as it does allow the camper to float over sand, rather than drag. I also did some testing while we were on our 6 Month travel (Plenty of time on my hands) and the groves created were quite different.

Here was one crossing that we ended up going up on the right of this dune then dropping into the original track at the top.

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Re: Banning Of Camper Trailers in Desert Sand Dune Areas Lower Your Pressures
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2013, 09:06:27 PM »
Your Thesis is correct and the lower pressure will work, Frazer Isl advise to run a 18psi. I tried to tow a suburu out of a sand hill at 18, all I did was go down. I dropped all tyres to 15psi and drove out and towed him out. I have had the experience. that was 14years ago. Heavier tyres need more out of them to work as well, we are talking about 15psi or less. B

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Re: Banning Of Camper Trailers in Desert Sand Dune Areas Lower Your Pressures
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2013, 09:29:43 PM »
Not arguing at all , just trying to get some facts.
IHoping to be educated,
Brian

No worries Brian, pressures are almost as important on the trailer to prevent sinking of the trailer tyres into soft sand and hence a lot more drag/work for the tow car. I 'start' my sand pressures at 15psi and any trailer I'm towing usually gets below 10 psi. I'd like to do some video before-and-afters to demonstrate

In the meantime...

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« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 09:32:59 PM by GeeTee »

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Offline Steinzy

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Re: Banning Of Camper Trailers in Desert Sand Dune Areas Lower Your Pressures
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2013, 10:02:27 PM »
Another point to remember is although the trailer is being dragged so there is not going to be loss of traction on the trailers wheels, a trailer often has a different track to the tow vehicle and by reducing the pressure on the trailer will reduce how much it cuts in when creating its own track.
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Re: Banning Of Camper Trailers in Desert Sand Dune Areas Lower Your Pressures
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2013, 10:19:18 PM »
We appear to have a banning mentality in this country, its disappointing but true.  If we ban people there'll be a lot less impact to the country.
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Re: Banning Of Camper Trailers in Desert Sand Dune Areas Lower Your Pressures
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2013, 11:00:12 PM »
The way it was explained to me is to think of those big long snow shoes so that you don't sink in the soft snow.  Having a low tyre pressure helps to spread the load and prevent sinking in the sand.  Banning campers doesn't solve anything.  There are bad apples in every group and blaming camper trailers is just crazy.

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Offline Robert Alley

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Banning Of Camper Trailers in Desert Sand Dune Areas Lower Your Pressures
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2013, 11:59:40 PM »
I have towed my camper on plenty of sand and with the right pressure you could follow and you wouldn't know I was towing. I would do way more damage with just the cruiser and pressure even just a little bit high that's when you start to get axle tramp and dig holes. I think poor wheel travel can course a loss of traction and therefor dig holes. The trailer thing is just a cheap shot. Education is the answer not banning trailers.
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Re: Banning Of Camper Trailers in Desert Sand Dune Areas Lower Your Pressures
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2013, 08:29:51 AM »
We appear to have a banning mentality in this country, its disappointing but true.  If we ban people there'll be a lot less impact to the country.


There is also a mentality with some people; they have a god-given right to go anywhere, with anything.
It's only in the last decade or so people have been attempting trailer treks into the Simpson and other similar areas so it's pretty easy for Parks staff etc to see who, and what, is doing the most damage. Of course they will 'manage' appropriately to keep the areas open as much as possible...but sometimes it's simply not sustainable
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 08:55:44 AM by GeeTee »

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Re: Banning Of Camper Trailers in Desert Sand Dune Areas Lower Your Pressures
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2013, 10:32:55 AM »
My personal view on this is yes there may be some truth that some people cross the Simpson with high tyre pressures while towing campers and rut out the track but surely it would be very few and far between?
The last 10-15 years has seen an explosion of people like you and me who now go to these places because every track in Australia can now be researched to death via the net and it has made what was once a daunting task a walk in the park for most. Blame the internet, or the snow ball effect, or magazines or whatever for the massive increase in traffic. Dont blame the family man taking his wife, kids and camper for a look at their country, don't talk of shutting us out, promote us to do it more!

The opinion in regards to city folk being the most likely ones that dont know what they are doing, when you think about it is simply not true. I grew up in and still live in a town that most people would consider to be very small and country and like all small town country kids we spent our youth bashing old cars and bikes around paddocks or back streets or whatever but that has not given me or any of my mates any more information on whats right and wrong when it comes to desert driving.
City folk are just as informed and have the same ability, arguably better ability as far internet connection, to research the rights and wrongs of these things as the country people.

It comes down to experience and at times laziness in my opinion. An experienced traveller/4w driver/sand driver will air down his/her tyres with out batting an eye lid. An in experienced, regardless if they are a city living person or country person may forget or think its not yet necessary because until they get that experience they have only read about these things and are yet to see for themselves the benefit of knowing the correct pressures for the conditions.

As for all these great places being closed off to us because of a minority in society who think we are permanently  damaging the environment, fair dinkum the argument could go on for ever.
The Simpson for instance has for the sake of argument one (yes I know there are more) main track cut through it by vehicles and has done since pretty much since Reg took the Patrol across ;) The Simpson is large and has a few tracks cut through it, so what? It is sand and sand moves with the wind. Yes I know as long as people are driving across it the sand will never reclaim the dunes on the track but is it really an environmental issue? I dont think so, its like a needle in a hay stack.
Let us see our own country, let us take our kids and show them what this great land is all about, promote tourism in our own country, the small towns need us and we need them. Discourage any talk of banning campers, get on our side and stick up for people who want to take campers across. Sure do your best to educate people about doing it with the least possible footprint (or ironically a larger footprint with lower tyre pressures!), but don't stand up for closing us out, its not on.

I understand your going to get a very small section of society that will go beyond what the greater majority of us would consider common sense and start tearing up camp grounds, or driving over tables, or generally hooning around and giving us decent folk a bad name, but you get that in all facets of recreation. You always will unfortunately but they are a very small minority. We need to stand up for us, being the majority who simply want access to our own country.

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Re: Banning Of Camper Trailers in Desert Sand Dune Areas Lower Your Pressures
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2013, 11:51:32 AM »
When members of our club did part of the CSR, they heard talking over the UHF of a group who couldn't get over a hill.
One of our member asked them what their tyre pressure was. The answer was that they dropped them a lot, to 35 psi..........
Our member told them to drop them to 20 and try again.
Silence on the other side. Then they came back: That low? I will roll my tyre of the rim.

It is education.
I have run 6 psi in my tyres to get up a hill. When I was up, I pumped the tyres back to 15 psi.
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Re: Banning Of Camper Trailers in Desert Sand Dune Areas Lower Your Pressures
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2013, 12:10:34 PM »
Quote from: GeeTee
There is also a mentality with some people; they have a god-given right to go anywhere, with anything.
It's only in the last decade or so people have been attempting trailer treks into the Simpson and other similar areas so it's pretty easy for Parks staff etc to see who, and what, is doing the most damage. Of course they will 'manage' appropriately to keep the areas open as much as possible...but sometimes it's simply not sustainable
agree

Quote from: DannyG
My personal view on this is yes there may be some truth that some people cross the Simpson with high tyre pressures while towing campers and rut out the track but surely it would be very few and far between?
but its a growing problem...
and you know what happens to areas/trackswhen the problem gets too much*..


Quote from: WilSurf
It is education.






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