The great chinese steel debate! Feedback needed please.

[jagfromaus]

Ok swaggers, Been to the rosehill supershow yesterday looking at the budget end of the CT range to buy and looked at 5 manufacturers...GIC, Market Direct, Leisure Matters, Skamper Kamper and Mario.
Now the thing is ive been warned off chinese steel because of reported problems but to be honest i cant find too much evidence or reports to actually back this up? Yes ive seen the link on the GIC site but it doesnt mention any particular manufacturer.
Let me say at the onset that I work for Bluescope Steel and understand the superior quality of our steel to overseas stuff, and have also had one of those nasty chinese minibikes for the kids that was absolute Shite.....BUT having said that i bought an australian made box trailer 10 years ago that rusted to Shit in just 2 years because of the poor design where the side sheets were only tacked into the angle iron and allowed water to penetrate and destroy the trailer very quickly indeed.
I am really keen on purchasing my friends 9 month old fully galvanised Skamper Kamper because he's upgrading to a caravan and offering me the Skamper for 5.5k.
Can anyone please tell me if they have first hand experience with any Skamper problems regarding the steel quality or welding? Pm me if you dont wish to post. Personally i think for the money the Skamper is awesome and will more than suit my needs since i will prob never go off road and being fully gal'd and full length chasis seems a very smart idea. yes they are bolted because their imported and flat packed but the finish on the trailer seems superior to many of the Aus made units. Expecting a good response to this post 

[chester ver2.0]

It is not the steel but the quality of the welds and canvas is where the most difference is seen. Yes the chinese steel is of a lower grade bit it is only because there is more scrap in it. The steel is still made from our iron ore that is dig out the ground by me and put on a big boat

[muzza01]

Hi jagfromaus,
I can't comment on the scamper but I have had a good look over many Chinese variants.  Problems that I have seen first hand are:   
1.  Chinese copy Treg style hitches.  There are a few threads about these poor quality copies.
2.  Welding, sometimes not enough and sometimes not correct penetration of welding. Especially on spring hangers.
3.  Not enough structure in the steel frame requiring the addition of more structural steel.       
4.  Failure of leaf springs.  Had a workmates trailer break a leaf in his springs whilst driving on the blacktop.  He replaced and                           ungraded his springs.
5.  Lack of underbody protection for the water tank and pump.
6.  Electrical wiring sometimes not up to scratch.
7.  Remove and replace all nuts and bolts with quality bolts and nylock nuts.

In saying all of this, I am expecting delivery of our Chinese built Camper within the next month and I have budgeted substantial time and $$ to repair and make this trailer strong enough and safe enough to cater to our needs.  If you have a good eye for detail (as I am sure you have working for Bluescope) and you are handy with a welder etc, I am sure you can make this camper strong and safe as I plan to.  Good luck.  Muz.

[MIC78C]

At the Muswellbrook 4WD and Camping show last week, the Leisure matters Trailer was $5500 brand new with 2 years warranty. It was a fully galvanised trailer.
Maybe shoot "Campingwithkids" a message. If you can't give your trailer a good shakedown within the 2 year warranty period, maybe you should just hire one.

[dazzler]

Hi Jag

The reality is steel is steel and we are only talking trailers.  As a few know I used to be an accident investigator and traffic cop and pulled over some absolutely crap trailers with bent drawbars and cant every recall one breaking.  Of course if you were using them hard off road they might bust but overall, provided the design is okay (or normal) even low grade steel will be fine.

I used downgrade steel on a bobcat trailer I built and never had an issue and that thing was loaded constantly.

I doubt you would have any issues with the trailer you are looking at.  The main issue with chinese stuff is the rubbish they use for hubs/drums/electric brakes/hitches etc.  This is where the big difference is.

Its a buyers market out there at the moment and I think you would be surprised how close you can get to a second hand aussie made unit for the same money.  Look for 'Alko' brakes or a similar quality brand to give you some idea of the quality.  If I saw a second hand aussie made CT for $8k I would probably offer a lot less and be happier in the long run.

The one piece chassis/side rail has an inherent engineering flaw where the bend is.  You can see this by the deformation where they bend it or the bracing they use to cover it.

Overall you seem to want it and if it suits your needs then grab it and fix whatever breaks.  If you cant weld you could do a course and use that knowledge to fix any issues.

Have fun.

[BigJules]

My experience of sourcing and manufacturing out of China is that their metallurgy is definitely as good as ours or the amercians or Europeans. We routinely replaced nuts, bolts and washers as they would not stay tight. This suggests to me that they stretch, perhaps extremely low tensile strength.

Welding is a skill; some Chinese workers can do it well and a bloody lot can't.

Here are a couple of things I've seen on Chinese manufactured campers. One shows reasonable welds, but the whole section is then bogged.

The other two show the recovery hitch/bike rack attachment. The thinnest welds into the thinnest steel.

I am not saying you can't get a good value camper out of China, but be aware of what you are getting.

[mongrel]

OK... I have a Skamper Kamper that I purchased back in Jan 2012.  We have had 4 outings in this camper in total, and even though I am not completely disappointed with the camper, there are some things I need to comment on.

I have no issue with the trailer itself.  The welds all look good, and I reckon, unless I am going across the Simpson Desert, I think it will be fine.

That said....

We had an electric brake fail before the last trip.  I have tried a few things to get it working, but I think the entire brake setup on the drivers side needs to be replaced.  Skamper sent me a new magnet, so I will fit  that and see if it works.  Other than that, they advised that it's now out of warranty.

We have a water tank that is now pretty much useless.  Skamper used Air hose fittings and air hose for all of the water connections and they have all rusted, tainting the water, and now filling the entire water system with rust particles, and although I have flushed the system numerous times, it keeps coming back.  The only way to get rid of if, is to strip the entire water system out and replace all the fittings and hoses with food grade fittings and hoses. Air hose and fittings should not be used for water.       I raised this with Skamper, and they told me that they believe it's the filler hose causing the issue, and have offered to replace it... but it's the cheap air fittings that is the cause, but that's all they offered.

We had two of the internal poles break, well the little click button that holds the poles together broke.  So I fixed that myself, and it will never break again.

On the last trip the tent floor pulled away from the wall.  On inspection the floor was never stitched in correctly with the wall.  I asked Skamper for comment and they said that it's a known issue.  HOWEVER because it is now 1 month out of warranty, I quote, "there is nothing we can do"  Now... I could have chased up Fair Trading, as the law would back me in that the tent floor should last more than 13 months before having an issue.  But if Skamper have taken this attitude, I would rather not deal with them, and fix it myself.  Quotes are about $600.

The front toolbox leaked like a sieve!  I sealed it with some rubber from Clarke Rubber, and it now it seems OK.

Would I buy another Skamper again... Hmm... Probably not.   I would probably, instead of paying $6000 for a Skamper, I would try and stretch to say $10k or $12k and get a better camper, with a company that will  better support it's customers.  The after sales support on any camper is worth 5 times as much as the camper.  To be shunned 1 month out of warrant for a "Known Issue" is absolutely unacceptable from Skamper.

I have kept all email correspondence to back the above, so before someone jumps on me, they are the facts.

I had great hope for my Skamper, but I reckon some time next year I will sell it, and find something a bit better from someone who is prepared to stand behind their product.

PM me if you want any further information.

Cheers
J

[jagfromaus]

If you can't give your trailer a good shakedown within the 2 year warranty period, maybe you should just hire one.

? no fun in hiring lol..... need toys to play with at home

[jagfromaus]

Thanks for such a detailed reply Mongrel and others i much appreciate them all. To be honest im stretching the budget to 5.5k so as much as i accept that a good used aussie camper could be sought for just a few grand more is still out of the question unfortunately so with that all in mind i'll no doubt just have to see how i go and luckily i'm a sheety by trade and have one mate in the canvas business and a bro inlaw thats a vehicle body builder and my sons a boilermaker so with all that at my disposal i should be able to address any issues i may have.
Had someone of said theyve seem a Skamper totally snap in half then i wouldve been sceptical.
The post mainly got started because ive heard a few people simply generalise and say their Shit JUST because their imported without being able to support their claims to me

[Bird]

I would probably, instead of paying $6000 for a Skamper, I would try and stretch to say $10k or $12k and get a better camper, with a company that will  better support it's customers. 

don't fall into the trap that spending more will get you *ANY* better support.

The after sales support on any camper is worth 5 times as much as the camper

Understatement.

I'd go fair trading on Skamper with principal of it all. $600 is still at least a couple of weekends away with family and treats.

[mongrel]

I hear ya Lost, and yes not everyone will offer great support, so I plan on researching pretty hard next time.

If you have the skills to fix the issues that pop up, then Skamper is ok for the money. 

Just be prepared to spend a little fixing them.

[Big Nath]

HAND UP HERE....I WORK FOR LEISURE MATTERS.

However.....before I worked for them, I owned one of their campers.

If you think the welds look a bit suspect, for 5500 you can pay someone a slab or 2 to recheck ALL welds. If in doubt, reweld it.

I'm more than happy to discuss my product both positively and negatively.

3 years ago, our product was crap. Welds were poor, steel was black only, wires were poorly run, canvas was a lesser grade. However now, at the recent Muswellbrook show we had a canvas sewer come and compliment us on our materials and workmanship.

I'm sure for 10-15k you can get a good product (possibly STILL imported) but if your happy to tinker, a 5500NEW camper will be hard to beat.

Cheers


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[jagfromaus]

Thanks for the honesty camping with kids. i must say that i was inpressed with one of your salesmen yesterday for being honest when i asked if they were imported and his reply was a quick "yes of course they are for this money" Thats the bottom line i guess, you get what you pay for but at the end of the day your out having fun camping at an affordable budget

[dazzler]

HI Jag

Just one other thing and I will shut up

 

If you think about it a basic camper trailer is a 7 x 4 box trailer with a tent on top, a swing out rear tailgate that a kitchen bolts to.  Maybe a water tank underneath.

If you check out the price of imported tent tops you will get a an entry level one for $1500 on ebay or an Oztrail Camper 7 which are the better stuff out of china and you are looking at $2200

$5500 - 2200 = $3300.

Heres the fun bit.  Look around for a box trailer builder in your area and check out their 7 x 4's.  You should be able to get a top notch one with slipper springs for around the $1500 mark.

So there you have a superior import tent on a local trailer for $3700.

If you get them to build you one you can customise as you go.

ie - Eye to eye springs, water tank mounts, swing out rear tailgate, jerry holders, gas bottle holder.  You can supply rims and tyres that match your vehicle. 

I am just estimating here but you should be able to get all that for less than $2600 easy if they do it as they build it. This still leaves you with $700 and you can buy a Drifta tailgate kitchen and have change for a slab;

 http://www.drifta.com.au/CamperTrailerKitchens.php

Forget galvanising unless you live in FNQ or right on the coast.  You can get the whole thing powder coated with no distortion worries for  about $450.

The great thing about this is you are getting an australian built trailer that you can take back to the manufacturer and will last you long after the camping bug may leave you.  It will seriously out last any import trailer top and if you want to upgrade you can just upgrade the top.

Anyway,  just an alternate way of looking at it.

[Bird]

You should be able to get a top notch one with slipper springs for around the $1500 mark.

not round this area you wont.specially if you want to go on dirt roads, or even add a few things like jerry holders etc
You'll get a basic onroad 'pickup a washing machine' quality trailer for that amount..

[muzza01]

Here are some examples of the MDC.

Notice welding of spring hangar

Gas cylinder holder only pop-riveted on.

Jerry can holder once again only pop-riveted on.

[gregw56]

 i'd have thought that with all these trades about you'd be better of gettin hold of all the parts and some steel and buildin one from scratch. surely with a sheety, canvas bloke, body builder and a boilermaker ya got it all. just need to get weekend or 2 ,bbq and beer.
 have to be better than a chinese trailer. just a thought

[dazzler]

not round this area you wont.specially if you want to go on dirt roads, or even add a few things like jerry holders etc
You'll get a basic onroad 'pickup a washing machine' quality trailer for that amount..

In Tas with the highest transport costs bar Perth you could easy do it.  We are not talking a full chequerplate with a 500mm x 250mm x 10mm thick drawbar so you can go 'off roadin'.

A normal 50mm shs chassis with 100x50x3 drawbar and folded sides - easy for that money.  And with eye to eye springs, some common sense you could go round the world.  Just add some chequerplate stencils to make it stronger.
  

[jagfromaus]

Thanks again all. I did consider a custom build but crunched my own set of numbers and it didnt seem economical once you throw the tent top on, looked at the oztrail tops and they dont have anything 30sqm of real estate? Personally i rate full gal since my 'austrailers' box trailer rusted to bits after 2 years and preventative fish oiling grrrrr. the numbers i did was 2k for a trailer and 3k for a tent top, thats 5k and i still wouldnt have a kitchen, water tank, storage box, stabilizer legs and all the other bling bits? Even the gas struts add up in cost. my mate thats offering the skamper has upgraded the front box to a larger known brand that cost him around 500 and hes done a few other things that i was considering which has saved some cost such as 150mm pole tube storage and slip in holder for the rear reciever that puts the spare wheel on the back for better weight distribution?

[Bird]

have you looked in the trader section? Theres some mighty bargains in there.

don't fall for what a mate of mine did which was just tunnel vision. He bought/sold his Obriens with in 12mths and lost 7-8k.

[jagfromaus]

have you looked in the trader section? Theres some mighty bargains in there.

don't fall for what a mate of mine did which was just tunnel vision. He bought/sold his Obriens with in 12mths and lost 7-8k.

Yeh ime definitly flexible lost and have scoured the trader section along with ebay and gumtree daily. Alot of the quality 2nd hand stuff is still fetching good money (rightfully so) but they also appear to be smaller canvas for the more "serious" offroaders.

[Slipus]

A slightly different perspective

I bought a Trackabout 2 years ago, haven't had a spot of problem, everything works, nothing leaks, easy to set up. 1 happy camper

I believe you get what you pay for

[Eski]

I have been helping a mate by assembling Chinese motorcycles.  There is mainly two brands.

One is good and very much quality like the Japanese.  The other is made of cheese, treads pull out, lock nuts remove the bolt thread and metal brackets not strong enough.

I grabbed some strap steel from the crates for jobs at home.  I wanted a simple bracket so I needed to bend it???  Nup it snapped before it bent to 45 deg..

So it depends on the local buyer as remember China has the technology to make one of best 5th generation jet fighters in the world, just that we don't want to pay for that level of technology...

[Big Nath]

Here are some examples of the MDC.

Notice welding of spring hangar

Gas cylinder holder only pop-riveted on.

Jerry can holder once again only pop-riveted on.

We bolt all of our can and gas bottle holders on. Yes they may too come loose, but u can do it up NOT like a rivet


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