Declining competency in our graduating tradespeople

[Hairs]

Game over. Here endeth the lesson for today from JC.

 

[Mace]

Pity we have descended (as per previous similar threads) into another youth bashing and "not as good as in my day" thread, completely away from the original competency discussion.  All this is a rehash of:

http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=23615.0

Time to move on.

[Marschy]

Training an apprentice is predominantly the responsibility of a tradesman. If the standards have slipped the bulk of the responsibility for the degradation of standards must therefore rest with the tradesman, not TAFE or poor work ethic.

We have a young girl at work who's work ethic sucks. What does her manager do, who should be mentoring and monitoring her, nothing.

A similar situation occurs with my sons work environment. The second year apprentice has a sh1t work ethic. My son rips into him daily to pull his finger out, but he gets told 'Get stuffed, your not my boss'. What does the boss say about the second years poor work ethic, nothing.

[Top.ender]

I personally believe that just about anyone can complete an apprenticeship and the time it takes is really irrelevant. A wise man told me you will learn more in the first 6 months out of your trade than you did in the 4 years it took you to do it. He was right. It is up the individual and there work ethic. Some people have it and some don't. The first 6 months out if your trade you have no more excuses. Some people step up. A third year apprentice if taught properly should be able to do any job a tradesman can. Just not as quick as they haven't learnt the tricks of the trade yet.

depends on the Trade....

[Nomad]

I went through the trades that deal with all the properties on my rent roll and the only company that we kept were the electrical guys.
I found that most of the trades guys could not justify their $/hr once the quotes were broken down.

These days I have a heap of dedicated younger blokes ( who haven't gone to the mines) doing most of the work I need done.

There young, enthusiastic, and do good work.

They may not have the old fashioned skills of being able to plane a piece of timber with a mahogany handled plane but they do have the skills to deal with current construction and renovation requirements that wasn't dealt with by older blokes. Like everything building has changed and is changing year by year. So I think most you guys have to recognise and respect that the skill set is going to change dramatically.

Cheers Nomad.

[prodigyrf]

There is some qualified research coming out to show the digital generation is wired differently to previous ones. Kids always have stamina and lack of concentration issues first up in the workplace but there's no doubt the ones growing up with instant screen gratification are a different breed to my day when imagination came from reading books (and listening to radio). Information overload might be a problem for them too in that regard with flicking from one snippet or image to another and suffering jack of all info, master of no deeper understanding and knowledge. A bit more ADHD than previous gens.

Then there's the problem of age entering apprenticeships nowadays- must finish HS and then pre-voc and with a rest year they're often 19 or 20 before starting whereas they used to be 15 or 16 and more malleable. As well it was their first wage packet so the low apprentice wage was not an issue and by the time it was the 2nd yr increment came along, while mum and dad paid all their hidden household rent, bills and tucker. For better or worse it's different for them.

[kylarama]

I'm not going to comment on other industry, but I'll give my 2 cents worth on my game.  Both sides of the coin.

Commercial fitout.  Just started my 19th year in the building industry, all in commercial fitout.  Qualified carpenter/joiner, worked my way up to site manager, project planning and now project managment.  Our company has been around for over 40 years and used to try and put 2 apprentices on every year since the 70's, I started at the end of 94 when apprenticeships were thin on the ground.  I was one of 80 applicants, into 30 interviewed and 10 for a 2nd interview, for 2 positions.  You earnt it, it wasn't handed to you.
 
Come 2002 and we were ringing Tafe schools looking for pre-apprentices as our ads would yield 2 maybe 3 replies from unsuitable applicants.  Work was flush, so it's a buyers market, the kids you wouldn't even offer an interview too 8 years earlier were almost being offered the job over the phone! Union EBA rates, 36 hour rdo week and we are doing the begging to the applicant!
So now if your lucky you end up with one good one and a dud.  Up until 2003 the company had never sacked an apprentice before, the not so good ones were at least given the chance to finish their time and get their ticket before being shown the door.  Only last year we sacked our last two apprentices and they will probably be the last apprentices through the company.  Between the 2 of them they had about 120-150 sick days in ONE year!  One of the kids was starting to come good and show promise (too little too late), the other was only capable of catching flies with his mouth.

The good kids are still their like the 'olden days', but there is alot more work around and the kids that would normally be knocked back for an apprenticeship are being hired.

The closure of technical schools over the years could be part to blame, teachers/schools no longer pushing 'trades' as a goal, but more of a fall back, maybe a lack of pride in being a 'tradie'?  It seems only in recent years has the govenment realised our trades shortage and implemented some better school programmes.

On the job training?  Are the previous generation training the current generation properly?  I've met some tradesmen in my time who have been in the industry for 30+ years and are completely hopeless!  Rough, poor work ethic and can't/won't teach you anything, I called them 'life support systems for nail bags'.  You can be old and completely useless, it's not a young only thing!
We had a cabinet maker in our factory, 30+ years with the company, a brillant tradesman/craftsman who kept to himself.  Unfortunately kept to himself too much because in that 30 years he NEVER showed any apprentice anything, would only work by himself.  Great role model? 
Add to the stupidly short timeframes we are given to complete large fitout jobs (and on tight margins), our tradies have no time to spend half a day with the 2nd year showing him how to hang a door, or explain setouts and understanding construction drawings.  So the poor kids end up being given the jobs that require the least training / supervision.

Yes, the current generation needs to pull their socks up and roll their sleaves up too, but the people who say "back in my day" I bet their boss thought they, along with their entire generation were usless too.  While age brings experience, it also brings a fading memory
 

[prodigyrf]

With an extended family the bil pointed out how his 2 are 'wired differently' to my 2 (both with a an elder boy and younger girl) and then we watch the nephew's 3 tackers with ipads, etc and shake our heads. Mine had no mobiles at school, let alone touch screens, although the pressure was on for a mobile with my youngest. His 2 (18 and 21 now)were the vanguard with mobiles and iphones, etc. I'm at his place and totting up and working out some figures on pencil and paper and I've got the answer before they can even dig out a calculator and they're puzzled how both dad and I can do such quick sums.

When they've drifted off the bil describes how his 2 haven't got a clue about numbers and they'd be fair game for any spin merchant or simply the wrong change at the shops. He describes how when shopping they'll grab some 'special tag' item while he says no grab 1 or 2 of that different weight/size one one because it's/they're better value. This without his glasses to read the cents/100g or whatever, but he like me can do the quick sums in his head while they even struggle to get their heads around black and white unit pricing for dummies. I recall my 2 at their age and I can see he's right and there's nothing special about our kids.

So we're sitting around a family bbq on the weekend and he's just replaced their dishwasher and a freezer and grumbling these things probably come in 3s and I'm nodding about the WM figures and how I'd noticed our fridge is about the same vintage. Then he gives sis a quiet serve for wanting to trip off with some fancy priced Smeg while he's more down to earth like me and I'm backing him up with the WM sums before SWMBO starts getting any bright ideas. You know guys- They hardly even consult us when they make these decisions, yada, yada. I drop in the price of a Speed Queen WM I'd considered and rejected and my lad got it instantly but I could see his 2s eyes glazing over just like bil said.

That's his 'wired differently'point that they no longer have an intuitive feel for figures and the mental arithmetic that goes with it and you can see where that leaves them (the eldest at uni studying comp prog mind you) Now recall those sums- 10.5yr old 8kg washer cost $845 and needs $180 in parts without labour for most so even in Mrfixit's case that's a no brainer with a new 9kg one for $647 delivered, installed and old one gone. We can forgive the kids for not understanding what inflation does to the equation and just stick to those nominal sums here. Top of the line Speed Queen on special for $1995 delivered and by all accounts proud owners get 20-25 yrs trouble free washing. On the original nominal sums the new one only has to last 8 yrs while a SQ will need to do almost 25yrs whereas the upfront difference of around $1350 can be put to better use. Basically SQs are for our cara parks and the like.

It's a problem for life if you don't have an intuitive feel for numbers, just like literacy skills and the deductive thinking and reasoning that go hand in hand with them and some are already skeptical about wiring future generations the popular and easy way-
http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/computers/computers-ok-not-in-silicon-valley-20111106-1n1qc.html
Given the missus is a JP teacher plus my anecdotal experience I tend to agree with their philosophy.

[lilstookie]

I got a cert 2 in agriculture this year whilst working on a cattle station.
Here is how I got it.
I copied the answers from a sheet of paper to my own sheet.
I was allowed to do that because the aboriginal guys are allowed to so why not the white blokes.
I got no practical training and basically got it because I been competent at doing the job.

BUT
the private company doing the training get $5k for every sign up from the government, all they have to do is sign me up, fill out the answer sheet based on practical assessment over a 6 month period and bingo, after 6 months they get $5k and I get $1,800 tools for trade.

I'm a bore runner, fencer and general handy guy and had no training really apart from a 10minute guide on how to join fencing wire.....lol

I thought it was a total joke and was borderline on sobbing somebody in........
We have been opn the rough end of Shit mechanics for years and I've now learned how to fix most things myself and got some help from others like the my swag guys........

[lilstookie]

Whilst on the subject.......the mechanic we had on our station gets called a fitter by the boss and I'm the fixer.
His idea of being a mechanic is pulling out an alternator and replacing it, where as I take it out and replace the brushes.....
I use fencing wire and baling twine to repair a broken throttle cable on a Suzuki vitara to get it out the paddock and into the workshop because he wanted to wait till a replacement was sent out a few weeks later.....

I'm not a mechanic.....he is......I learned stuff like this myself from using my noodle.....he learned how to undo bolts and fit a new one.....

[peter2904]

The old tradesmen were (are) craftsmen.  They made everything and had pride in what they did.
Love to see an old tradesmen working and getting tips from them.

[laf]

check how your house guttering is joined on the corners, pop rivets and slastic , in the older days would of been soldered, and nothing wrong with that, times change. Time and money is king. 

2 CENTS WORTH

LAF