Declining competency in our graduating tradespeople

[Rumpig]

as someone who has been a Carpenter for over 20 years now it comes as no surprise to me what was written in the paper, i've spent most of  today fixing stuff done by other so called tradesman Carpenters that a 2nd year apprentice should be able to do 
i'd struggle to recommend people in many trades to do a job for someone if they asked me for a tradie to do work for them, the standard of work i see day in and day out done by all of the trades is pretty ordinary to tell you the truth. i spent the last 2 hours today going through 11 units and writing out a defect list for the plasterers to fix, i think they are in for a surprise when they show up and see it 

[GGV8Cruza]

I have been in the building industry for the past 24 years and trained as a carpenter and then went on with my clerk of works certificate. I too believe that the majority of apprentices that are coming through the trades at the moment are not up to scratch. My last employer had several apprentices that were not up to scratch and they were given a letter to allow them to receive their papers early, sometimes up to 9 months early.

In the building industry one of the main problems I believe is the specialisation of trades. You may be a carpenter but never stand a frame or build a roof. Plumbers are sometimes just drainers and don't do any work inside.

Unfortunately budgets and pricing also play a major part of who is hired for the work, we have plasterers on site at the moment who were $170k below the next contractor. The management team took the risk and it is not working as we have sub standard tradesman that are handed tools and taught on the job in a rush. The dollar rules a lot of jobs and the time where you would spend time doing it properly has gone.

My job as a carpenter/builder has now changed to a management position and also an OH&S nightmare where the paperwork takes over. Some days I just want to put the nail bag back on and swing a hammer again.

GG

[noel_w]

As I work for a TAFE Provider, ill make a couple of comments:

Its very hard to get good trades teachers.  Why put up with the low wages and job insecurity, most are sessionals or contract. We have some very dedicated teachers who have low job security.

The teachers do have the power to fail them, but the $$ return to the TAFE is much less for a NC or WD result.

WE (GOTAFE) have invested over $13million in the last 4 years in Traditional Trades facilities, but then see private providers who work out of the back of a truck poach employers by offering to train their apprentices off campus/on site for less$$.

With all the Commonwealth Money around at the moment, every high school seems to be putting in a new trades wing to teach Cert 3's with no industry connections. I worry about the job competency of these students.

We work in partnership with employers, and employ Centre Managers and Industry liaison staff to ensure the employer gets what they want.  Our Industry  Satisfaction results are running at 90% plus. We have some big ones, SPC, Furphy's, etc, who take a big interest in their Apprentice's training program.  It would be great if all employers did this.

We actively form linkages with young students and schools thru VCAL programs, and then work to get the students into work experience programs in our TAFE Tester programs.  We have had many great ongoing employment stories come from this program, particularly Koorie Students.

We then wonder why Metropolitan funding models are then applied to Regional areas, and force us to drop programs that increase workforce capacity at a local level, but only just break even, forcing local kids to have to seek further studies away from home. Very disheartening for all.

Yeah I work for a TAFE too, the largest Trade & Technical Institute in Oz, and it is in QLD. Purpose built.
One of the problems we face is that we are now in a contestable market where we are held by State Government rules & regulations and other private RTO's aren't and can apply for funding the same as us. Makes it very difficult on a sloping play ground for funding allocations where they can hire a small shed to teach in and we have to build $200M facilities.
As other guys have said, our teachers are paid set dollars but the ever present mining $$$ lures a lot away and why wouldn't they go when 2nd year apprentices can get $80K at the mines which is more than our teachers get. Yet some of our guys are just amazing how they love to pass on their knowledge.
I am not a teacher but it still frustrates me to see how the employers rort the system. One of the problems we face is that the apprentice finishes his time but the employer won't sign him off for 6-12 months. We get paid on completion of their training so therefore we don't get paid until they sign off. Campbell then says how incompetent we are for not sticking to budget. We can't win.


I did my time as a Telecom/PMG Tech. Four years as an an apprentice learning all facets of our trade. Now they do a 6 week course and are eligible to be called the same as me. Where is the justice in that.
 

[rodsswag]

I did 3.5 years in my trade.
I only completed my time early because the company that was training me closed down.
2 years latter I looked into another trade to further myself in the industry and when the tafe teacher cane out to work they said with what you have done we can sign you of right now.
I asked if they would like to see some work I had done and they said no the paper work is here.
All they were thinking about is how to get as many kids through as possible.
I ended up going to another job and doing it properly because how stupid would you feel someone asking you to do something in your trade and you not knowing what to do........
A bit like the girls on My Kitchen Rules tonight....lol......

It is all about the DOLLAR now days with training and not about how it makes you feel when the job is done.
A great tradesman will always step back and look at their work when it is done and think to them self wow I just built that....

Rod....... 18 years in the trade....

[Kit_e_kat9]

.

[prodigyrf]

Pretty much retired now except for the onerous demands of my technically useless, extended genetic pool and generally I'd agree it's the blind leading the blind nowadays. To be fair though I have witnessed a quantum change over my lifetime from tools and materials being expensive and labour being relatively cheap to the reverse situation. There's no doubt Asia Inc has accelerated that change more recently, as well as the onerous domestic red tape, OHS, documentaion and overlawyering to contend with.

When I was a lad the old man's tools were all hickory handles, manual saws you had to set and sharpen, Stanley hand planes and chisels, etc and most sheds had hand drills and a brace and bits because the price of a simple electric drill was out of the question for most. The hand tools were expensive so you looked after them or else you'd get a boot up the backside from the old man or tradey. That graduated slowly to quality power tools ie a Makita planer that you sharpened and adjusted the blades until you just replaced them and now with Chinese stuff you can throw many of them away when they're blunt after 1 blade reversal. Hell I can remember those Champion spark plug cleaners and testers before spark plugs became throwaways, along with the contact points you used to hone carefully.

Technology change has seen old skills die. Who changes contact points let alone resets engine timing nowadays and hydraulic and shim tappets don't need much attention. While PVC plumbing and plasterboard changed whole trade skills in the building industry and you don't need to carry oxy around much anymore. Then there were the good old days when you could fix yer own car. Yeah? Well that's because you bloody well had to regularly unlike the service and forget machinery we're spoiled with today. Todays QA tolerances coupled with hi tech lubricants and coolants means most mechanics don't see the insides of engines, transmissions and diffs anymore. Not even worth doing a head job anymore, just chuck in a complete low k engine for the odd owner that doesn't maintain their car regularly and it goes bang clunk before 10-12 yrs and 200-300000km you could bank on otherwise.

Basically who makes their own furniture or sews their own clothes nowadays and why not? Like my Simpson top loader a few weeks back and the missus says it's stopping at the start of the rinse cycle and me who can fix anything so let me see. Hmm.. if I advance the timer on it runs through the rest of the cycle so that's just a new timer chum and a new one is $180. Hmmm.. when did we buy this thing? Delves into receipts/warranty file and that's right- Keith Bowden Electrical 8kg for $845 10.5 yrs ago and only just heard they closed up so what's available online? New 9.5kg Simpson toploader on special from Appliancesonline, delivered and installed and take away the old one for $647. Click! all done that arvo and by 11am next morning the new one was sitting in its place and the missus was all smiles again. I'm a real whizz at fixing these things nowadays with all my experience if I do say so myself 

[Hairs]

G'day prodigyrf,
You've hit the nail on the head.
Most things aren't serviceable these days.
Quicker to replace and in most cases cheaper as well.
Welcome to the world of, If it's broke throw it away.
I'll have a crack at fixing anything if it mostly involves just my time.
I've spent a couple hours with the odd can or two murdered to fix a $20 toy of the kids.
 
 

[dazzler]

They were saying the same things when I did my diesel trade 30yrs ago.

Not as hard, not as good.

My exp is its how connected the apprentice and the workplace is more than anything.

[Top.ender]

The worst thing to happen to all apprentices are those STINKING Training Groups...originally started in VIC during (the recession we had to have) to help 3rd and 4th years complete their time because they had been laid off as their company went under. They have now become Labour Hire Companies who couldnt give a sh...t about the kids , its all about the Gov rebates/incentives.
Its not always the kids fault , I,ve seen some 3rd year Electricians who,ve been used by the system and done little more than dig trenches.
Unfortnatley the days of training up your Apprentice so they become a valuable asset to you seem to be gone....

[Bird]

I find it impossible to get anyone to show up and quote on work anymore.

Let alone a "good/bad" tradey.

[BernieS]

I find it impossible to get anyone to show up and quote on work anymore.

Let alone a "good/bad" tradey.

Reminds me of a certain scaffold hire company individual who writes his prospect sales quotes/requests on a yellow post it note and loses it. Ring again, (gosh so sorry I lost your contact details, thanks for calling back, was his response) guy comes out, measures up, takes pics, gets my email to send quote, which I might add never arrived - its now a year later. There was no way I was ringing again.  I don't have the patience to deal with idiots.
Not to mention the two young clowns left to reno a rental property next door.  Problem is what they don't realise their behaviour only reflects on the guy they work for and the real estate agent who contracted them in the first place. Word travels.

[Marschy]

They were saying the same things when I did my diesel trade 30yrs ago.

Not as hard, not as good.

My exp is its how connected the apprentice and the workplace is more than anything.

Couldn't agree more, my son is keen as mustard and made the most of his apprenticeship. He had good teachers/employers who were willing to teach him the skills he needs to make him a good chippy. His TAFE teacher worked with my father over 20 years ago. My father was a building supervisor for the Department of Housing and Construction, so the teacher and my son had a rapore right from the word go. If he had questions he asked and got responses. Now, pay and conditions, that's another issue all together, his current employer is getting good consistent work, but has somehow failed to pay his superannuation for nearly nine months now. He's now looking at contracting for himself so he can make some coin for himself instead of being used and abused, as this seems to be the norm now-adays.

After he did his pre-voc course, he did some work experience to try and get an apprenticeship, and the number of turds out there who kept stringing him along, saying "Can you come back next week, I need to assess you a bit more before I make a decision about whether I'll take you on". There was never an offer in the cards, they simply needed labourers who they weren't willing to pay

[Andymac]

Couldn't agree more with this thread. I renovated my house a few years back and there is a clear link between quality of work and age of tradesman at my place.

Interestingly I discovered my old school yearbooks while cleaning out the shed over Xmas and had a flick through. Noticed that when I was in Year 7 most of the graduating boys wanted to get an apprenticeship. By the time my year were graduating it was all about getting into Uni. A trade was viewed by my school as your option if you FAILED to get into uni. All the pride had been stripped out of trades.

AM

[prodigyrf]

Now, pay and conditions, that's another issue all together, his current employer is getting good consistent work, but has somehow failed to pay his superannuation for nearly nine months now. He's now looking at contracting for himself so he can make some coin for himself instead of being used and abused, as this seems to be the norm now-adays.

After he did his pre-voc course, he did some work experience to try and get an apprenticeship, and the number of turds out there who kept stringing him along, saying "Can you come back next week, I need to assess you a bit more before I make a decision about whether I'll take you on". There was never an offer in the cards, they simply needed labourers who they weren't willing to pay

He only has to ring up the ATO and his Super will be sorted Marschy.

The tradeys I know wouldn't use up kids but you need to understand work experience kids, trainees and apprentices cost you dearly at first because they hold you up and unless they're something special re keenness and ability, tradeys lose enthusiasm for training pretty quickly. Hence the pre-voc route nowadays to weed out the majority of feather bedded, cossetted kids coming through the Ed system full of themselves and stamps and ticks for 'most participated'. Even when they're the pick of the crop the sudden drag on productivity plus admin oncosts and red tape has seen Gummint front up to try and offset that. In that sense it's like going back in time where the family picked up all expenses for the tradesman or artisan to indenture their son for the right of entry into the precious Guild after many years.

Welcome to Groundhog day with your little preciousses mums and dads.

[Marschy]

He only has to ring up the ATO and his Super will be sorted Marschy.

So will his job and his relationship with his boss

[krisandkev]

I may as well add my two cents worth. 
When I left school, age 15, it was just what blokes did; find a trade to start an apprenticeship.  No schoolies week, in fact most would have been like me and had been working part time after school.
I was lucky and had a few trades to pick from, started as a Sheet Metal Worker for an air-conditioning company. The apprenticeship then was a very strict contract between the employer and you. No mucking about, work hard, get pay little but learnt heaps, including real life experiences. If you were a smart arse the tradies would soon sort you out.
Left the trade 10 years later when the trade industry was going through a bad time.  Sick of being out of work from time to time. Went on the dole once for 6 weeks and that was the worst 6 weeks I have had.  Just felt so wrong to be receiving money for nothing and no job to go to.
So things are just a little different now days. 
Kevin

[prodigyrf]

So will his job and his relationship with his boss

Sorry, didn't see the bit about thinking of leaving so it can wait until he does and it will all be paid with interest.

Also be aware the ATO are a bit more subtle than that and send out a 'general letter' stating the lucky winner has received the prize of a randomly selected audit and please have all your docs at the ready when we call on such and such a date, or if that is not convenient please call 1800-ATOluvvies to arrange another suitable time.

[GUEY]

We advertised for an apprentice just before Christmas. Would have had around 150 applications.
Only 2 of those applicants expressed any interest in the actual trade they applied for and they were ruled out due to living to far away and unlicensed. We thought at that time of year we would get a lot having just completed grade 12 but didn't get 1. I guess they were too busy on schoolies to worry about their future.

[Yagan]

I personally believe that just about anyone can complete an apprenticeship and the time it takes is really irrelevant. A wise man told me you will learn more in the first 6 months out of your trade than you did in the 4 years it took you to do it. He was right. It is up the individual and there work ethic. Some people have it and some don't. The first 6 months out if your trade you have no more excuses. Some people step up. A third year apprentice if taught properly should be able to do any job a tradesman can. Just not as quick as they haven't learnt the tricks of the trade yet.

[cruisindub]

I'm qualified in my 'trade', over 12 years now....... I still just a young fella!

My dads a fitter and Turner and later in life a cabinet maker from many years, my eldest brother is a carpenter, my next eldest brother is a horticulturist and head hunted, so we are all tradey type of family, learnt to have pride and passion.

General consensus now, even around my younger mates and younger cousins, (I'm not that old...) is that they will drop out of school become tradies,
 My cousin, not the sharpest tool in the box, plans to become a plumber, even admits himself he's not smart enough for much else. Sorry to all plumbers,  but thats as good as the new intake will be.
There's no pride, passion, thoughtfulness or even common sense around ...
I employ a lot of different nationalities in my job, both young and old and the amount of qualified people that just can't think ahead baffles me...
time management,
something's just can't get taught!



Irritated me no end whenthe Electrician doing the wiring for my house renovation charged me $20 hour(on top of his extortionate rate) just for the work experience kid,.....
The Sparky spent more time going out to his Van and back........

So called 'tradies' irritate and annoy me!!

[briann532]

I concur with most posts here, but I believe the problem is not just limited to trades and or services.
Its everywhere and its the attitude that is the problem.

The younger generations seem to have no pride or care in their work (exceptions obviously and being very broad I realise, but I'm focusing on the majority)
Its more important to look cool, attend the right party's and wear the right clothes.
Being "liked"by everyone is far more important than integrity or honour.
Respect??? Isn't that one of those really old songs by some really old singer?

It appears the biggest problem these days is not be blocked by a friend on facebook. OMG serious issue here!!!

Unfortunately as previous posts haves said, teachers and other educators no longer have the power to discipline or correct little Johnny.
I currently employ a 2nd year apprentice through a recruitment agency (got sick of having slackers who were wasting my time and theirs cos daddy told them they had to get a trade.)
He gets reviewed every couple of weeks and "babied" through the whole process. I get asked for progress reports and achievement outlines..............

WTF???
How bout, just knuckling down, learning the trade, being respectful and showing some courtesy.
Hell no, if a mistake is made, we need to analyse (read - anal - lies) why its happening and put procedures in place to correct the teaching program and implement further training.
Its never a case of little Johnny just effed up. Or lost a tool or forgot something.
Did I ask him if he packed it away? Did I check he checked? Did I give him a 3 step written program to allow for learing outcomes?
Did I wipe his donkey?

Where does it end? The problem I have is I really need apprentices. 
What I reckon I should do instead is find some semi retired bloke who has integrity and pride, who wants some extra income. Pay him cash and have him work 3 days a week.
Please PM your resume................

Like our festering govenment, we need to just chuck the whole lot out and start again.
Sometimes it is best to stop flogging a dead horse and start training a new colt. If only the same applied to apprentices. LOL

my 2c plus 0.2c GST's worth

Brian

[GUEY]

^^^^ In regards to the older bloke,  that is the way we are starting to think as well. They might not keep up with the younger blokes but if you factor in the f ups and time wasted dicking around by the younger lot we would be much better off with probably a better built product.

[nbd73]

Is also very similar in professions as well as trades

Spot on, we get young guys in who don't know one end of a shovel from the other and require an instruction manual for using a claw hammer.  But university does not teach anyone much, all it does is prove you have the ability to learn. So far out of touch with what the job requires, no graduate could complete any task without major supervision & instruction. As said many times, attitude of young people completely baffles the old schoolers. Tardiness ie late for work: since when is it a workplace's problem that the bus gets in 10min after start time? Get the previous one! I could not care less if you sit around for 20mins. The guys that do come in on time go and buy coffee which seems to be the trend. Bugger me, I had a casual job during uni and you had to clock in before start time, 1 min late and the first 15mins were docked from your pay. Aargh, could go on and on and on in this thread, fact of life that any one with even an ounce of ethics and application will be a success in life and always have a job and earn the most. Rant over for now.

[Jeepers Creepers]

A lot of young folks today, simply don't want to work... end of story.

In 1972 at age 12, i would peddle me pushy from Carina to the Pacific Golf Club and line up to be chosen as a caddy. That involved walking the entire 18 holes and lugging the players clubs.
It was not a lot of money to be earned doing the caddy bit, but ya got a few bucks if you could find a few lost balls and stuff.
It was a given, that they bought your lunch, so it was a sanger and double sars at the 19th hole in those days.

At age 13, pumping petrol after school until i snagged an apprenticeship at 14, which really was far too young.

Hated school, hated tafe, but managed a pass in everything, but no honours or credits.
So i was a mechanic, but not an A grade, and i couldn't/didn't care about sitting for a bit of paper.

I went on to specialize in Mercs, Jags, Fiats and Rollers before giving it all away for real estate in 88.

Even these days, all i wanted was a bit of a mowing run to pay a few bills..... stuff me, 75 regular clients and some casuals and i have my ring hanging out most days now...... bugger it...but i can't give 'em up, as most are elderly or sick or both.

Oh well, life goes on, but i guess the big difference is, i wanted a job and to play my part in society and always have.

The youth of today for the larger part, are as useless as a pergola on a submarine.

[nbd73]

A lot of young folks today, simply don't want to work... end of story.
.......
The youth of today for the larger part, are as useless as a pergola on a submarine.

Game over. Here endeth the lesson for today from JC.