Author Topic: NSW Fires  (Read 122154 times)

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Offline briann532

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Re: NSW Fires
« Reply #450 on: December 22, 2019, 06:23:05 AM »
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-13/is-the-prescribed-burn-window-closing-in-australia/10236048


Yes it's media, yes its more than likely biased, but it sounds about right to my unedumacated brain.
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Offline Hairs

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Re: NSW Fires
« Reply #451 on: December 22, 2019, 07:22:34 AM »
Egos and politics won't allow hazard reduction burns? Do you know anything at all about the topic?
Yes I do mate,
Christ.
Talking with rfs captains over the past few months, they are frustrated, talking with farmers, they are frustrated.
Talking with NPWS, the blokes on the ground, they are frustrated.
But what would I know?
Please enlighten us with your expert opinion.
Go on, learn me.


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Offline achjimmy

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Re: NSW Fires
« Reply #452 on: December 22, 2019, 07:42:39 AM »
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-13/is-the-prescribed-burn-window-closing-in-australia/10236048


Yes it's media, yes its more than likely biased, but it sounds about right to my unedumacated brain.

The seasons have swung around , but is also everybodies Failure and getting blame. Hazard reductions have gone wrong in the past . By nature there risky but in today’s blame everyone for my woes society a mistake can’t be tolerated ! Hence the risk is mitigated to the point that the window is even tighter imo
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Offline raider

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Re: NSW Fires
« Reply #453 on: December 22, 2019, 08:53:16 AM »
The seasons have swung around , but is also everybodies Failure and getting blame. Hazard reductions have gone wrong in the past . By nature there risky but in today’s blame everyone for my woes society a mistake can’t be tolerated ! Hence the risk is mitigated to the point that the window is even tighter imo

Spot on. No one wants to make a mistake because they get crucified.
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Offline Bigfish

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Re: NSW Fires
« Reply #454 on: December 22, 2019, 09:07:15 AM »
Spot on. No one wants to make a mistake because they get crucified.

Lets not forget that some of the major fires were arson, lightning strikes and hay bales self igniting.

Until the fed govts get their act together and produce a plan then Oz will always be the dumping ground for the world and a once pristine country turned into a giant Shithole.  Forget coal , cattle and gold.  Until we have a foolproof water plan for the nation the rest are nothing.
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Offline alnjan

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Re: NSW Fires
« Reply #455 on: December 22, 2019, 02:03:52 PM »
The seasons have swung around , but is also everybodies Failure and getting blame. Hazard reductions have gone wrong in the past . By nature there risky but in today’s blame everyone for my woes society a mistake can’t be tolerated ! Hence the risk is mitigated to the point that the window is even tighter imo

As a young bloke I remember the Hazard Burns being done evening and night.  Then they changed to afternoon and now moved forward to a daytime burns.  During the day time there is very little chance of meeting the prescription to be able to do a burn.  To achieve the cool burn they need to go back to a night time burn, but they would go against too many things. 
Cheers

Al and/or Jan

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Re: NSW Fires
« Reply #456 on: December 22, 2019, 04:12:13 PM »
Quote from: alnjan
As a young bloke I remember the Hazard Burns being done evening and night.  Then they changed to afternoon and now moved forward to a daytime burns.  During the day time there is very little chance of meeting the prescription to be able to do a burn.  To achieve the cool burn they need to go back to a night time burn, but they would go against too many things.
Agree..
I remember many weekends where burns were planned, Friday arvo/nights through to Sundays...
Backburns were also a great training situation for cadets/new members.

Have drip torch will travel.
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Offline Bird

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Re: NSW Fires
« Reply #457 on: December 22, 2019, 04:15:46 PM »
Farkles...

Cant imagine this....
Quote
There isn't much left'

There is "not much left" of the township of Balmoral following Saturday's devastating firestorm through the hamlet south west of Sydney, Premier Gladys Berejiklian said.

"We have got the devastating news that there's not much left in fact [in the] town of Balmoral."

"It's devastating not knowing whether your property is standing or not. Unfortunately, we have received bad news. There isn't much left.

"I understand expert teams are going in on the ground in a lot of those communities today, to make full assessments and to let people know when it is safe to go back. Even if people have lost their properties, they still want to go back to see what's left and if there is anything they can salvage. We know that's part of the recovery. We want people to have access to their land, to their property, as soon as they can, but it has to be safe," she said.
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Offline alnjan

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Re: NSW Fires
« Reply #458 on: December 22, 2019, 05:48:48 PM »
Agree..
I remember many weekends where burns were planned, Friday arvo/nights through to Sundays...
Backburns were also a great training situation for cadets/new members.

Have drip torch will travel.

And that reminds me of the other thing from the old day to now.  If the weekend was no good, the burn was done on whatever night it was a good night to be burn, mid week or whenever.  Now if it can't be done on the weekend, it can't be done regardless of how good conditions may be mid week.  When you take five days out of each week, you are left with a very smaller window of opportunity. 

Dosen't sound good for Balmoral. 
Cheers

Al and/or Jan

Offline Bigfish

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Re: NSW Fires
« Reply #459 on: December 22, 2019, 06:22:05 PM »
It also doesnt help when news  sites use sensationalist headlines that are bullShit..

The headlines and then the truth .....in other words..they have no idea!
« Last Edit: December 22, 2019, 06:24:05 PM by Bigfish »
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Re: NSW Fires
« Reply #460 on: December 22, 2019, 06:56:02 PM »
Quote from: alnjan
And that reminds me of the other thing from the old day to now.  If the weekend was no good, the burn was done on whatever night it was a good night to be burn, mid week or whenever.  Now if it can't be done on the weekend, it can't be done regardless of how good conditions may be mid week. 
Yep... its just Shitful... mainly to do with all the blowin bullShit departments that "need" to be informed.
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Offline McGirr

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Re: NSW Fires
« Reply #461 on: December 22, 2019, 07:23:22 PM »
Thankfully we have not had the amount of deaths that happened from the fires Victoria experienced years ago.


I think we can all vent our frustrations on Climate change, politicians etc but that’s not going to put the fires out. At the end of the day, after all the fires are extinguished, there needs to be a summit on future prevention and learn from what went wrong.

Yes, reduce the amount of fuel that feeds the fires, allow clearing around property’s etc.

Regarding planes, helicopters dropping water, does it really work. It looks like the water evaporates before it hits the flames due to the intense heat, I am not an expert on this.

Mark


« Last Edit: December 23, 2019, 06:43:12 AM by McGirr »
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Offline Bigfish

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Re: NSW Fires
« Reply #462 on: December 22, 2019, 07:29:02 PM »
Thankfully we have not had the amount of deaths that happened form the fires Victoria experienced years ago.


I think we can all vent our frustrations on Climate change, politicians etc but that’s not going to put the fires out. At the end of the day, after all the fires are extinguished, there needs to be a summit on future prevention and learn from what went wrong.

Yes, reduce the amount of fuel that feeds the fires, allow clearing around property’s etc.

Regarding planes, helicopters dropping water, does it really work. It looks like the water evaporates before it hits the flames due to the intense heat, I am not an expert on this.

Mark

We had 23 of Australias foremost experts asking for meetings many months  ago with regards to the potential of the current fires. Govt wasn't interested!! 
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Offline alnjan

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Re: NSW Fires
« Reply #463 on: December 22, 2019, 07:41:08 PM »
Thankfully we have not had the amount of deaths that happened form the fires Victoria experienced years ago.


I think we can all vent our frustrations on Climate change, politicians etc but that’s not going to put the fires out. At the end of the day, after all the fires are extinguished, there needs to be a summit on future prevention and learn from what went wrong.

Yes, reduce the amount of fuel that feeds the fires, allow clearing around property’s etc.

Regarding planes, helicopters dropping water, does it really work. It looks like the water evaporates before it hits the flames due to the intense heat, I am not an expert on this.

Mark

There will have to be an Inquiry in the deaths and Bushfires in General but yes after the fires will be the time for States and Federal to be involved in some serious debate on all aspects of the Bushfires.  From Property Protection involving all aspects of Fire Prevention Mitigation, including land and buildings, not just Hazard Reduction but also all building requirements to help fireproof buildings.  Then the combating of fire, of all types of fire by all means possible and whatever future technology there may be for fighting the big wildfires. 

My biggest concern is the above will be smothered by those that continue to blame Climate Change as the cause of the fires.  If Climate Change is the cause of the fires then why is there no fires in Deserts.  I mean they are probably hotter and more affected by Climate Change but I don't see the same fires.   Maybe fuel load has something to do about it. 
Cheers

Al and/or Jan

Offline Hoyks

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Re: NSW Fires
« Reply #464 on: December 22, 2019, 08:55:53 PM »
Regarding planes, helicopters dropping water, does it really work. It looks like the water evaporates before it hits the flames due to the intense heat, I am not an expert on this.

Mark

Yes it works, but only to an extent. Same as the use of air power in any battle.

It will knock the fire down and slow its progression, but you really need boots on the ground to ensure it is out and won't reignite.

I was at a fire on Monday and we had a Blackhawk armed with a 3000L bucket in support. The fire jumped the break and we were just about out of water, so whistled up the bomber and 3000L was dumped on the problem bit. We then had to step in with the hoses to make sure the edges were out.
While we were out and re-filling the NP crew were were assisting were told they were on their own as the pilot had restricted visibility and we were working close to power lines.

So our little 51 medium attack tanker can hold a whopping 1500L, NP's G-Wagon 1000L and where we were working was around 20 minutes in low range each way to get a re-fill, we were also the closest vehicles to the water.

The Blackhawk could deliver 3000L with around a 5 minute transit time to the dam and back, so, yeah, they can really knock a fire down, slow its progression and stop it getting away.

Like any aircraft they are restricted by weather and visibility. In hot weather their performance is degraded (less lift), if a drone is sighted anywhere in the area, then they leave and we were lucky to have a nice massive water source within a few km of the operation area.
The large and very large tankers can drop 15000L+, but need access to a large airport and a lot in infrastructure, so can dump a lot more in a pass, but have significantly longer transit times each way and even with the engines still turning and burning it takes a while to pump 15000L aboard.
 
You still need someone on the ground to ensure it is out or burnt up to and stopped at a fire break. You also need someone to patrol those breaks for days afterwards to make sure that a burnt tree hasn't/isn't going to fall across it or sparks blow across and start it all off again.

Offline rags

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Re: NSW Fires
« Reply #465 on: December 22, 2019, 08:59:17 PM »
We had 23 of Australias foremost experts asking for meetings many months  ago with regards to the potential of the current fires. Govt wasn't interested!!

 Fixed for you

We had 23 former retired experts in inner city building fires,  who think they are experts in bush fires and newly acquired climate change skills, who didn’t take there opportunity when they had relevance, funded by a group lead by a bloke whose specialty is looking under rocks for bones and calls themselves the Climate Change Action group.
These experts have no other agenda than to be a nuisance whiles attempting to build their profile before standing for candidacy of some green political group at the next election.
 
I would much rather the advise come from current relevant operational experts.
I understand their former colleagues are shaken their heads in disbelief of these  people.
I also understand that to date these experts have turned down the opportunity to meet with the relevant ministers of the government because they thought that only the PM should be engaged. Some would say grandstanding.



Offline rags

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Re: NSW Fires
« Reply #466 on: December 22, 2019, 09:15:39 PM »

The large and very large tankers can drop 15000L+, but need access to a large airport and a lot in infrastructure, so can dump a lot more in a pass, but have significantly longer transit times each way and even with the engines still turning and burning it takes a while to pump 15000L aboard.
 


Thought I would share how mobile tankers are being utilised and refilled. in the fire grounds of the Gosper fires on the Bells Line of Rd.
So here’s how they are utilising 2 trucks  like in the photo.
These quarry trucks are strategically placed next to spring hydrants on the water mains. They are continually filling from the main, and as the mobile tanker trucks arrive they can rapidly ( because of the quarry truck pump capacity) refill into the mobile tankers including  a B double Toll tanker. These tankers then spread out over the fire district to resupply fire appliances
Working well and didn’t need the PM to  come up with this idea either, the experts were already on the job.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2019, 09:17:39 PM by rags »
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Offline gronk

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Re: NSW Fires
« Reply #467 on: December 22, 2019, 09:19:42 PM »
. At the end of the day, after all the fires are extinguished, there needs to be a summit on future prevention and learn from what went wrong.


Mark

The same as happened (NOT ) from the black saturday fires in Victoria..
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Offline Jeepers Creepers

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Re: NSW Fires
« Reply #468 on: December 23, 2019, 05:12:08 AM »
A 1.5 million dollar summit will reveal we should do something.
Bugger all will happen regarding a fix or solution.
It will happen again..... then we can ask/blame/moan all the same Shit again.
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Offline achjimmy

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Re: NSW Fires
« Reply #469 on: December 23, 2019, 07:02:29 AM »
Rags is right we don’t need prof Flannery chairing anything to do with the fires ( remember the sea level fear mongering from him ! Now he lives by the sea ) anyway we have excellent clearing rules now in NSW but people aren’t abiding by them ! How many places do you see nestled in trees that are going up . We are the problem we choose to live in these wooded paradises but squeal and blame everyone else when they burn.

Maybe go back to where council would access your property each year and send you notice to clear or they’d appoint a contractor to do so .
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Offline Bigfish

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Re: NSW Fires
« Reply #470 on: December 23, 2019, 07:19:07 AM »
Fixed for you

We had 23 former retired experts in inner city building fires,  who think they are experts in bush fires and newly acquired climate change skills, who didn’t take there opportunity when they had relevance, funded by a group lead by a bloke whose specialty is looking under rocks for bones and calls themselves the Climate Change Action group.
These experts have no other agenda than to be a nuisance whiles attempting to build their profile before standing for candidacy of some green political group at the next election.
 
I would much rather the advise come from current relevant operational experts.
I understand their former colleagues are shaken their heads in disbelief of these  people.
I also understand that to date these experts have turned down the opportunity to meet with the relevant ministers of the government because they thought that only the PM should be engaged. Some would say grandstanding.


Not fixed Rags.

Grandstanding...I dont think so...seems they knew what was going to happen and had major concerns...All this 8 months before the fires.....Maybe if someone had listened less lives and property would have been lost.  I dare say these people are more experienced than 99.9% on the forum. I think their comments are pretty well what everyone is talking about now. Anyone who thinks climate change hasnt contributed to the fire s are out of step with the majority of people.  Even morrisson,s govt has backtracked and admitted it is real!!

 Former fire chiefs warn Australia unprepared for escalating climate threat
This article is more than 8 months old

Major parties must recognise ‘national firefighting assets’ are needed to fight worsening natural disasters, say fire experts

Lisa Cox

Wed 10 Apr 2019 04.09 AEST
Last modified on Wed 10 Apr 2019 11.54 AEST

Shares
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Two dozen former fire and emergency chiefs from all over Australia want the next prime minister to ensure emergency services have the resources to fight natural disasters caused by climate change.
Two dozen former fire and emergency chiefs from all over Australia want the next prime minister to ensure emergency services have the resources to fight natural disasters caused by climate change. Photograph: Rob Griffith/AFP/Getty Images

More than 20 former fire and emergency chiefs from multiple states and territories say Australia is unprepared for worsening natural disasters from climate change and governments are putting lives at risk.

In a statement issued before a federal election date is announced, 23 former emergency services leaders and senior personnel have called on both major parties to recognise the need for “national firefighting assets”, including large aircraft, to deal with the scale of the threat.

The signatories include: Greg Mullins, the second-longest serving fire and rescue commissioner in New South Wales and now a councillor with the Climate Council; Neil Bibby, a former chief executive of Victoria’s Country Fire Authority; Phil Koperberg, a former NSW rural fire service commissioner and former Labor MP and NSW environment minister.

The document calls on the next prime minister to meet former emergency service leaders “who will outline, unconstrained by their former employers, how climate change risks are rapidly escalating”.
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The group also wants the next government to commit to an inquiry into whether Australia’s emergency services are adequately resourced to deal with increased risks from natural disasters caused by climate change.

They said some large firefighting aircraft were prohibitively expensive for states and territories and leased from the northern hemisphere, and access to them was becoming more restricted as fire seasons started to overlap.

“I started firefighting in 1971 and the bushfire seasons were extremely predictable,” Mullins said. “They’d start in Queensland and move south progressively.

“You knew when there was a bad season coming because there was an El Nino and drought. In the 90s, I stopped being able to predict it.”

Australia’s emergency resources were still equipped for “what was happening in the 1970s to the 1990s”.

“The first thing is we need whoever is in government nationally to take climate change seriously, rather than making jokes about it in parliament with lumps of coal,” he said.

“It’s just frustrating to hear the lip service being given to ‘Oh yes, we now believe in climate change and need to do something’ when every effort to do something about it is rubbished.”

Last year, in Australia alone, the NSW fire season began in early August, a heatwave led to fires in rainforest areas of Queensland in early December, and forest in Tasmania’s world heritage area caught fire in January, Australia’s hottest month on record.
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Read more

For the past week the government has been running attacks on Labor’s proposal for electric vehicle targets to reduce carbon emissions.

“You look at any of your headlines over the last six months,” Bibby said. “The hottest month. The hottest summer.

“We know the problem, and the only way to get politicians to do something about these things is put their jobs on the line.”

Bibby said an additional concern was that Australia relied so heavily on volunteers during natural disasters.

As extreme weather becomes more frequent, and fire seasons longer, that would put strain on the system and volunteers helping their communities were at risk of burnout.

There needed to be a review of the methods used to tackle large fires, cyclones and floods that was backed by research from experienced people working on the ground.

“We’re doing the same old things when things are getting worse. We need to find new ways to tackle this problem,” Bibby said.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2019, 07:22:41 AM by Bigfish »
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Offline achjimmy

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Re: NSW Fires
« Reply #471 on: December 23, 2019, 07:29:45 AM »

Not fixed Rags.

Grandstanding...I dont think so...seems they knew what was going to happen and had major concerns...All this 8 months before the fires.....Maybe if someone had listened less lives and property would have been lost.  I dare say these people are more experienced than 99.9% on the forum. I think their comments are pretty well what everyone is talking about now.

 Former fire chiefs warn Australia unprepared for escalating climate threat
This article is more than 8 months old

Major parties must recognise ‘national firefighting assets’ are needed to fight worsening natural disasters, say fire experts

Lisa Cox

Wed 10 Apr 2019 04.09 AEST
Last modified on Wed 10 Apr 2019 11.54 AEST

Shares
2,567
Two dozen former fire and emergency chiefs from all over Australia want the next prime minister to ensure emergency services have the resources to fight natural disasters caused by climate change.
Two dozen former fire and emergency chiefs from all over Australia want the next prime minister to ensure emergency services have the resources to fight natural disasters caused by climate change. Photograph: Rob Griffith/AFP/Getty Images

More than 20 former fire and emergency chiefs from multiple states and territories say Australia is unprepared for worsening natural disasters from climate change and governments are putting lives at risk.

In a statement issued before a federal election date is announced, 23 former emergency services leaders and senior personnel have called on both major parties to recognise the need for “national firefighting assets”, including large aircraft, to deal with the scale of the threat.

The signatories include: Greg Mullins, the second-longest serving fire and rescue commissioner in New South Wales and now a councillor with the Climate Council; Neil Bibby, a former chief executive of Victoria’s Country Fire Authority; Phil Koperberg, a former NSW rural fire service commissioner and former Labor MP and NSW environment minister.

The document calls on the next prime minister to meet former emergency service leaders “who will outline, unconstrained by their former employers, how climate change risks are rapidly escalating”.
Electric cars: separating the facts from the propaganda
Read more

The group also wants the next government to commit to an inquiry into whether Australia’s emergency services are adequately resourced to deal with increased risks from natural disasters caused by climate change.

They said some large firefighting aircraft were prohibitively expensive for states and territories and leased from the northern hemisphere, and access to them was becoming more restricted as fire seasons started to overlap.

“I started firefighting in 1971 and the bushfire seasons were extremely predictable,” Mullins said. “They’d start in Queensland and move south progressively.

“You knew when there was a bad season coming because there was an El Nino and drought. In the 90s, I stopped being able to predict it.”

Australia’s emergency resources were still equipped for “what was happening in the 1970s to the 1990s”.

“The first thing is we need whoever is in government nationally to take climate change seriously, rather than making jokes about it in parliament with lumps of coal,” he said.

“It’s just frustrating to hear the lip service being given to ‘Oh yes, we now believe in climate change and need to do something’ when every effort to do something about it is rubbished.”

Last year, in Australia alone, the NSW fire season began in early August, a heatwave led to fires in rainforest areas of Queensland in early December, and forest in Tasmania’s world heritage area caught fire in January, Australia’s hottest month on record.
Sign up to the Green Light email to get the planet's most important stories
Read more

For the past week the government has been running attacks on Labor’s proposal for electric vehicle targets to reduce carbon emissions.

“You look at any of your headlines over the last six months,” Bibby said. “The hottest month. The hottest summer.

“We know the problem, and the only way to get politicians to do something about these things is put their jobs on the line.”

Bibby said an additional concern was that Australia relied so heavily on volunteers during natural disasters.

As extreme weather becomes more frequent, and fire seasons longer, that would put strain on the system and volunteers helping their communities were at risk of burnout.

There needed to be a review of the methods used to tackle large fires, cyclones and floods that was backed by research from experienced people working on the ground.

“We’re doing the same old things when things are getting worse. We need to find new ways to tackle this problem,” Bibby said.

Yeah but tbh Bigfish if you’d spoke to anybody in the blue mtns here they would have warned you of the same thing and a lot longer ago than 9mths! I was interviewed by the SMH during the 2013 fires and told the reporter much the same as below. We have been on tenterhooks for several years now given there has been no burn or effective reduction in fuel loads in the Grose Valley since 94 and yet the development along ridgelines have increased. Further more with climate change the August winds are coming later during the hotter season and are potentially disastrous   And if you think back to the 94 fires the development and the professionalism of the rural fires services have progressed so yep we don’t need some media fueled circus imo.

But here’s an idea ? Have a forum invite all the so called experts , give them jetstar tickets to Canberra and ask for a signed pledge of bi partisanship and a deed they won’t engage in any political party or lobby group for a decade and they can come along  :cheers: other than that they can go fcuk themselves and there headline seeking junkets !
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Offline GeoffA

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Re: NSW Fires
« Reply #472 on: December 23, 2019, 07:39:07 AM »
Sustained drought + no controlled burns for years + fire bugs = big fires

It's a very simple equation......
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Land Cruiser.....the Patrol that Toyota try to build.....

Offline tryagain

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Re: NSW Fires
« Reply #473 on: December 23, 2019, 07:40:39 AM »
But here’s an idea ? Have a forum invite all the so called experts , give them jetstar tickets to Canberra and ask for a signed pledge of bi partisanship and a deed they won’t engage in any political party or lobby group for a decade and they can come along  :cheers:

 :cup:

Offline Bigfish

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Re: NSW Fires
« Reply #474 on: December 23, 2019, 07:56:33 AM »
:cup:

But isnt that what we want our elected govt and opposition to do.  Engage in bi partisan projects that actually help Australian citizens.    Sorry mate...there is too much money and behind the closed doors of parliament that means the country will always play second fiddle to the self interests of egomaniacs both in govt and business..  Spose we can dream though!

 :cheers:
Having lots of friends on farcebook is the same as having lots of money in monopoly...means absolutely nothing!!