Author Topic: Discussing controversial matters on a public forum  (Read 10186 times)

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Offline Beachman

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Discussing controversial matters on a public forum
« on: November 20, 2012, 02:43:48 PM »
Howdee,

I didn’t want to hijack the ‘Did Jimboomba trailers stop trading thread’, so I thought I would start a new one. There was a reply advising that the tread was controversial and some people comments could be taken the wrong way.

I am in no way questioning the author of that comment, but this thread is more finding out for future reference what can and can’t be said on the internet?? What type of repercussions can occur for discussing topics and seeing we don’t provide personal details when joining a forum, how do they track us down?

My take is what was said in the previous thread was nothing different to what would have been said if we were all sitting around a campfire/bar while having a couple of drinks. Someone said have you heard anything about XZV, someone else says I’m worried because I’m out of pocket, other people went for a drive to check it out themselves or offered advice. Then at the end it was confirmed what was originally thought.

Happy to receive constructive feedback as the above are genuine questions. I know I don't want to be dragged in front of a court for a honest mistake.

Thanks

Offline Mace

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Re: Discussing controversial matters on a public forum
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2012, 02:54:19 PM »
Here is some background for a start:

 :cheers:  Mace.


 Slander and libel are both types of defamation, which refers to statements that damage another person's reputation. While there are similarities, each focuses on different types of defamation strategy. The primary difference between slander and libel is that libel is the written or otherwise printed public defamation of a person or entity, while slander is the spoken defamation of a person or entity. Slander can also include bodily gestures while libel can include published photographs.

The Elements of Defamation
Although the law as to what constitutes defamation varies by jurisdiction, there are four basic elements that must usually be shown:


1.The statement must be "published" — meaning that someone else has heard or seen it, whether through printing, speaking, gesturing, or some other method;
2.It must be false, not an opinion or a fact;
3.The statement must be injurious, meaning that it causes damage to the person's reputation;
4.It must not be privileged, or published in a situation — such as a courtroom or legislative chamber — that has specific speech protections.

 
What Is Slander?
Slander involves verbally maligning the reputation or activities of another individual or entity, using information that is known to be false or misleading. Typically, this will involve not only the use of specific words to damage a reputation, but also actions such as hand gestures or facial expressions in order to reinforce the misinformation that is being distributed. Any defamation that is "transitory" — in other words, not fixed in a permanent medium — is usually considered slander.

One of the easiest ways to understand slander is to consider the example of actions of an employee who is unhappy with his company's policies and procedures. At an event including employees with their spouses and partners, the disgruntled employee begins to spread untrue information about the business and its owners. As part of his remarks, the employee may state that the company owners engage in business activities that are illegal as well as unethical. Unless the employee has reliable evidence to back up these claims against the specific people identified in the statements, he could be held liable for slander.

What Is Libel?
Like slander, libel refers to statements that damage another person's reputation. The difference is that libel takes the form of printed — or otherwise "fixed" — material rather than verbal assaults. Typically, libel in the United States can involve untrue words or images that are published in print publications as well as material published on a web site.

Continuing with the example of the disgruntled employee, he may choose to leave the company and write an exposé of the owners and the company operations. The exposé includes not only the untrue information that was previously deployed verbally, but also may include photographs that were taken and then used out of context to reinforce the purported validity of the lies. This type of activity would likely constitute libel.

Slander and Libel in the Electronic Age
Laws in various nations distinguish between slander and libel somewhat differently, especially when it comes to electronic communications. Depending on the laws that prevail in a given nation, untruths that are distributed by way of radio, television, or the Internet may be classed as slander or libel. In most countries, it is necessary to establish that the individual who originated the untrue information did so with a full understanding that the comments were false and that they were disseminated with the specific intention to malign or harm the reputation of another person or entity.

Criticism vs. Slander or Libel
While the right to fairly criticize people or entities and publicly share information is one of the hallmarks of personal freedom, it is illegal in most places to malign the reputation of another through false information. Verbal comments as well as printed materials that can be supported with verifiable evidence cannot be considered defamation, even when that information does damage the reputation of another party. This is because the information is in fact the truth, and not fabrications created by someone who wishes to undermine the reputation of another through any means necessary. In other words, in some jurisdictions, the truth is a valid defense to defamation, including libel and slander.

Source: WiseGEEK.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2012, 02:56:27 PM by Mace »
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Offline D4D

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Re: Discussing controversial matters on a public forum
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2012, 03:01:47 PM »
If you are speaking through your personal experience and state facts then you're safe. If you're quoting from 3rd party feedback and it is incorrect information you're opening yourself up for legal recourse. If you publish information that is not in the public domain then you're probably breaking somebody else's copyright or breaching a privacy law.
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Offline Bunyip

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Re: Discussing controversial matters on a public forum
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2012, 03:06:41 PM »
Thanks Mace,

So in short if people make it clear that they are "concerned" and it is their "opinion", rather than they "have been" or the other party has actually done something (which they are not positive that they have done) they should be alright?

When did common sense go out the window, no offence to anybody but if I read it on the internet I do other research before i believe it, especially on forums (once again no offence and I would hope others take anything I say as a personal opinion). Isn't that basically what a forum is?

Having said that someone who is known to be an expert (JasonB on fishing regulations in NSW for instance) can be taken at their word when speaking only about the field in which they have expertise.

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Offline Mace

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Re: Discussing controversial matters on a public forum
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2012, 03:21:33 PM »
If you are speaking through your personal experience and state facts then you're safe.

Thats dead right.

IMO opinion, in the thread concerned, some of the posts were not drawn from known fact at the time of post  (they may have  since been substantiated, or may still be substantiated in the future), and could have been injurious.
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Offline Symon

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Re: Discussing controversial matters on a public forum
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2012, 04:06:43 PM »
If you are speaking through your personal experience and state facts then you're safe.


Being right doesn't stop you from being sued.  If someone wants to sue you for defamation they will and you'll have to tussle it out in court, cough up some money and go through the heartache associated with court action.

The fact is that content on an online forum is 'published material', the way I understand it Brett (as the forum owner) is liable for this published material unless he can prove it was someone else.  I am sure if Brett was presented with a court documents requesting the identity of the person who posted up the material he would gladly hand over the member's email address and the logs of their IP address.  YOU ARE NOT ANONYMOUS ONLINE.

The best way is to be respectful, if you want to bad mouth someone, make sure you can back up your statement with very solid proof.

When did common sense go out the window, no offence to anybody but if I read it on the internet I do other research before i believe it, especially on forums (once again no offence and I would hope others take anything I say as a personal opinion). Isn't that basically what a forum is?


Common sense is a myth for starters, but anyways the problem is that defamation laws in this country have not kept in step with the internet age.  What you post online you are accountable for.

Anyways, this has been discussed before -

http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=21000.0
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=16838.0
« Last Edit: November 20, 2012, 04:17:58 PM by Symon »
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Re: Discussing controversial matters on a public forum
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2012, 04:27:27 PM »
This is a great topic to be discussing.

Thanks Symon - This is very true, and i can comment a little more detailed. I own a IT Security Business and have been working in this industry for over 15 years.

No one is anonymous online. If you post something on this forum, it is public and its sometimes extremely difficult to take back. Furthermore Brett as owner of the forum is liable. He can be requested by state or federal police to provide electronic evidence including names, IP addresses, pictures, posts and pretty well everything.

Furthermore the thread in question that started this i removed a number of addresses and phone numbers that got posted. I know that you can do searches online (and in question i did myself, i also even took them time to drive to Jimboomba to see what was going on for myself). I wanted to make something clear.

It's not appropriate on a public forum to post peoples personal details, even if it is attached to a "business owner" or similar. They have a legal right to their privacy (see www.privacy.gov.au). As forum members and a forum in general it's not appropriate to post this information, and search companies that retain that information have copyright and privacy requirements. It is fine to link/point to somewhere else, but copying the content onto Myswag shouldn't happen.

My Recommendation with everything is if you don't want your home address, phone number and details put online, then please don't post other peoples without their consent.
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Offline Patr80l

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Re: Discussing controversial matters on a public forum
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2012, 04:34:27 PM »
I wonder how malicious gossip would be dealt with.    If you prefix a negative comment with "I heard that….." your statement may be true, even if what you heard was false.
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Offline Watty2975

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Re: Discussing controversial matters on a public forum
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2012, 05:24:00 PM »
Working with children in the new world of cyber technology, it is very difficult to guide people in using a moral compass. We teach our students that anything online is there for good even if you try to delete it.

Basically if you wouldn't write it on a sign and hang it on you front fence don't say it in a public place. It has become too easy with user names etc to think you are anonymous and say what ever you like without thinking about consequences. It is about time the laws caught up to deal with all this particularly children on the Internet, Facebook, twitter etc.

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Re: Discussing controversial matters on a public forum
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2012, 05:25:47 PM »
I don't mean this in a jokey or point the finger way, but I wonder how some of the elec section threads would bear up under scrutiny with regard to the earlier comments regarding slander & libel. Certainly some of them must be borderline for overstepping the mark?

Offline davo69 and the Nurse

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Re: Discussing controversial matters on a public forum
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2012, 06:08:32 PM »
I don't mean this in a jokey or point the finger way, but I wonder how some of the elec section threads would bear up under scrutiny with regard to the earlier comments regarding slander & libel. Certainly some of them must be borderline for overstepping the mark?

This can also be seen on the MySwag facebook page. Especially if you do not have the right make and model of vehicle or the wrong colour.

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Offline briann532

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Re: Discussing controversial matters on a public forum
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2012, 06:38:33 PM »
I was always taught - Only speak to others how you would like to be spoken to.

Treat others you way you wish to be treated etc etc....

That said, I shall read this thread with interest........ >:D >:D >:D

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Discussing controversial matters on a public forum
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2012, 06:49:30 PM »
This can also be seen on the MySwag facebook page. Especially if you do not have the right make and model of vehicle or the wrong colour.

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That section was taken down and that member has moved on. That was rubbish.
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Offline BigJules

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Discussing controversial matters on a public forum
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2012, 06:51:28 PM »
I was always taught - Only speak to others how you would like to be spoken to.

Treat others you way you wish to be treated etc etc....

These are the rules everyone should follow on here plus the other one we all know.

If you wouldn't say it to your mum don't put in on here.
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Offline davo69 and the Nurse

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Re: Discussing controversial matters on a public forum
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2012, 06:53:45 PM »
That section was taken down and that member has moved on. That was rubbish.

Thank you BigJules! It was certainly unpleasant when you had to keep scrolling through the crap to get to the other content on the FB page.

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Offline Symon

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Re: Discussing controversial matters on a public forum
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2012, 06:54:03 PM »
I don't mean this in a jokey or point the finger way, but I wonder how some of the elec section threads would bear up under scrutiny with regard to the earlier comments regarding slander & libel. Certainly some of them must be borderline for overstepping the mark?

I'll be curious as to which threads you are referring to.   I would like to think that offending posts would have been removed.

Some get heated for sure,  but personal or business attacks get deleted.
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Offline evolution

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Re: Discussing controversial matters on a public forum
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2012, 07:10:51 PM »
I Honestly think that this comes down to the same old adage. One bad egg ruins it for the rest of us.
I have no idea how many members this particular forum has, but one would think it would be in the thousands.
How many people could you point at and say "hey you did that"? one would assume percentage wise say around 1-5%
Although I completely understand where everyone is coming from, it is also very easy to take written text out of context.

Just think about all those texts messages to your partner where they haven't seen the "humour".
I can understand and relate to someone expressing there feelings and asking for opinions as I have done that myself. However I would not think that you would
have many people intentionally slandering someone/something?
Although there are probably allot of threads on here (and every other forum) where if you took one post by itself it would look like slander, place it into context
with the rest of the thread and it probably wouldn't seem to be so bad.

I am not endorsing slander, nor defending anyone who is guilty of it. You make your bed and then you sleep in it. but and a BIG BUT, I really believe that the vast majority of people on here
are great, helpful people. Ok some may seem a little grumpy, but being blunt isn't a crime and nor is it necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes it can be refreshing.

Lastly would most people even realise that they are being slanderous? or would they just feel like they are expressing a freedom of speech? (insert can of worms here)  ;D
Any way that is my opinion and please feel free to correct me.

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Discussing controversial matters on a public forum
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2012, 07:19:27 PM »
We've been lucky so far and had a very low D1ck h3ad factor.

I would say that as well as not publishing something you wouldn't say to your mum, the other thing is that it is OK to disagree with respect and sometimes one just moves on.
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Offline krisandkev

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Re: Discussing controversial matters on a public forum
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2012, 07:36:53 PM »
All good points.  :cup:
 I have on a few occasions been very p*** off about something and typed up a thread in a word document, then have waited a few hours, read it again before posting and thought better about it and trashed it.  So maybe some people need to do that, before they post something in anger, wait a while and read it again.  There have been heaps of times I wish I could have done the same thing when I have verbally said something!  But then it is too late.  :'(
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Re: Discussing controversial matters on a public forum
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2012, 07:51:09 PM »
I'll be curious as to which threads you are referring to.   I would like to think that offending posts would have been removed.

Some get heated for sure,  but personal or business attacks get deleted.
Off the top of my head I can't recall the exact titles of the threads I'm referring to, and I'm not particularly in the mood to revisit those places, which would obviously back up my statement. Perhaps there aren't any that were OTT, but that's sort of what I was asking. An earlier post spelt out the dictionary definitions and law, but applying those principles to actual words written is the grey area. It's like paying free kicks in footy - half the crowd boo whilst the rest throw their hats in the air.
I don't enjoy reading about people accusing others of "having no idea" and being "clueless", but on reflection I suppose that's not the worst of it.  Sometimes it's just a general feeling as a result of reading a multitude of material following a similar pattern, so I guess I am at fault for generalising in that way - sorry.

Offline bobnrob

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Re: Discussing controversial matters on a public forum
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2012, 08:15:21 PM »
Hmmm....making me wish I had've read the thread now  ;D
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Re: Discussing controversial matters on a public forum
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2012, 08:19:11 PM »
I don't enjoy reading about people accusing others of "having no idea" and being "clueless", but on reflection I suppose that's not the worst of it.  Sometimes it's just a general feeling as a result of reading a multitude of material following a similar pattern, so I guess I am at fault for generalising in that way - sorry.

No-one enjoys reading those kinds of posts, which is why either the thread gets locked, posts get deleted, or members take a forced holiday from the forum, or a combination of all of those.  That kind of conduct is not welcome.
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Re: Discussing controversial matters on a public forum
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2012, 08:36:02 PM »
I final thought from me and then I will butt out: from reading above libel is defined a false or misleading written statement. What about when inappropriate language is used? In one thread a particular member labelled a select group, myself included, as 'w*?kers".  I can deal with name calling, but curious as to where this fits in.

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Re: Discussing controversial matters on a public forum
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2012, 08:40:26 PM »
Interesting with what happened to Lord McAlpine and Twitter in the UK recently.

Goes back to the debate of who is liable for misinformation that is posted or re posted online

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/lord-mcalpine-to-sue-10000-twitter-1444634
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Re: Discussing controversial matters on a public forum
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2012, 08:42:32 PM »
I final thought from me and then I will butt out: from reading above libel is defined a false or misleading written statement. What about when inappropriate language is used? In one thread a particular member labelled a select group, myself included, as 'w*?kers".  I can deal with name calling, but curious as to where this fits in.

This is where we need members to report such posts so that the appropriate action can take place. Name calling will result in instant deletion. No need for such behaviour from anyone. Mutual respect is what is needed in every post on this forum.....:-)
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