End of the road for LPG

[Bird]

Interesting article.
I find the figures really hard to believe, although eventually everyone is converted, so you cant have such large figures. but they are quite large drops in conversions.

CARS running on LPG could soon be an endangered species as motorists turn their back on the alternative fuel.

The number of new cars running on LPG in Australia nosedived from 13,378 in 2008 to just 244 last year.

Private vehicles converted from petrol to gas fell almost three-quarters from 96,000 to less than 28,000 in the same period.
 
The Victorian Automobile Chamber of Commerce said the decline had been so marked that many businesses specialising in repairing and servicing LPG-fuelled vehicles could soon be wiped out. The LPG automotive service and repair industry will hold a crisis meeting tonight.
 
While LPG is a cheaper and cleaner alternative to unleaded petrol, users have recently seen prices rise to 80c a litre.
 
The Federal Government has cut its LPG installation rebate from $1250 to $1000, while it costs an average of $3750 for conversion.

The rebate's future is uncertain beyond 2014.
 
Excise on LPG introduced in December will also rise to 12.5 per cent a litre by mid-2015.
 
Terry Sanou, of Bayswater LPG specialists Smithy's Car Repairs, said some operators have already gone bust.
 
Despite it being 13 per cent cleaner and costing motorists half as much as unleaded petrol, the industry had been woeful at selling itself to the public.
 
"If the situation is not acted upon soon, it will deteriorate even further," he said.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/end-of-the-road-for-lpg/story-fn7x8me2-1226363867011

[Pipeliner]

The increase in the number of hybrids (Toyota Prius, etc) being used as taxis in the cities is quite noticable.  This may indicate that other people who previously converted to LPG are trying hybrids instead.

[Big Nath]

Out here where we are, LPG is at 99.9C/L, Standard ULP is 1.55c/L.

Now after having a vehicle on LPG for many years, i know on average you get half the economy of regular ULP, meaning its costing $2 to travel the same distance as the $1.55 ULP will get you. Its a bit like Diesel, for many many years, diesel was a much cheaper fuel (up to 35c/L) as its less refined etc etc, now with the invent of modern high powered diesel engined the price is at parity. The government and car manufacturers mould us into driving these "more efficient and less polluting" vehicles while the fuel companies screw us at the pump. I'm glad we have the ACCC to look after us...

No wonder the industry is in decline.

Cheers!!

[areyonga]

 >:(The ACCC is a dead horse, it just wont fall over because its protected by government to justify their actions.  It has no teeth and an absolute waste of taxpayer money.  Its an insult to the Australian public.  Its about time these governments started listening to the people and not just doing things that THEY THINK the public need.

That's my rant for the day.

Should have put this in the rant thread

Trevor

[Fun Police]

Now after having a vehicle on LPG for many years, i know on average you get half the economy of regular ULP, meaning its costing $2 to travel the same distance as the $1.55 ULP will get you.

Unless you have a SVI system like on my wife's Mitsu 380.

We find that on average we are using only 10-15% more LPG per km.  So with prices around 73 cpl the equivalent petrol price is around 84cpl.

Still remarkable value for us.

We paid off the conversion in just over 14 months and are still pocketing the difference!!

[Maîneÿ . . .]

Unless you have a SVI system like on my wife's Mitsu 380.

We find that on average we are using only 10-15% more LPG per km.  So with prices around 73 cpl the equivalent petrol price is around 84cpl.

Still remarkable value for us.

We paid off the conversion in just over 14 months and are still pocketing the difference!!

Makes me wonder why the smart people are not jumping onto the LPG bandwagon 

However, I know after owning petrol powered vehicles for many many years, then buying my first diesel back in 1995, I've been using diesel ever since and have no intention of ever going back to a petrol engine again.

[UR-50-LO]

But you guys are comparing LPG to E10 or regular unleaded.
Considering LPG has 100-110 octane it is ALOT cheaper then the premium stuff. And straight propane is even higher again.
Get yourself a big boosted turbo or a high compression engine where the high octane is needed and you will deffiantely see the difference then.
0.80c per litre, big boost with no pinging beats $5 a litre for something equivalent like VP C16 anyday!!!

LPG is not just for BBQ's and taxis...

[Big Nath]

But you guys are comparing LPG to E10 or regular unleaded.

No im talking about regular ULP 91RON.

I had a one tonne ute on LPG, loaded, it would bearly pull. I know a bloke with a chev truck pulling a 28ft 5th wheeler, he uses...get this...3.5x more gas.

>:(The ACCC is a dead horse,
Trevor

Tongue in cheek.

Go the Diesels :-)

Cheers!!

[UR-50-LO]

Thats crazy...Ive built a ton of LPG powered cars over the years (turbo RB30 patrol, injected 5 litre Maverick, hot 6 cortina, etc etc) and none have used 50% more gas yet. They do use a bit more but not that much. Most of the above builds were old IMPCO products except the turbo RB30 which ran gas research. My current car gets 320km to 68L gas (runs out before empty though due to pressure so only using about 62L) compared to 370km to 70L fuel. So not too bad considering the costs, although I think next time I would like to try owning a diesel lol. IMHO it all comes down to set-up and tune. Take advantage of the LPG's high octane and get more from it. As long as the fuel costs go up along side of LPG you will always be infront...

I'm pissed its jumped 25c overnight here, but it still only costs me $50-$55 a tank of gas compared to $105-$110 for regular ULP. But I miss driving a 4wd all week for under $40 lol

[lockyer]

Since converting our Ford CC ute over to SVI LPG 2 years ago now, we have saved plenty, there is only very slight power difference with normal driving and no noticeable different at all when towing, and the our diffence per Klm is just under 10%. The new - ist SVI system is computer controlled and adjust mixtures etc is very straight forward.

Interesting article and maybe that's just in Vic because I know around here in the Lockyer Valley QLD it is now the norm to have to wait to get to the LPG bowser = $38 of LPG gets me 440 -460 klm(todays prices 73.5c ltr)

Cheers

[UR-50-LO]

The new SVI set-ups are rediculously economical for an LPG conversion. 440km is awsome from approx 60L gas?
My mother in law had the conversion done on a VE commodore and drove from Sydney to QLD (Southport) and then 2 days driving around QLD on a single tank of gas. Did the entire trip on 2 tanks and had over half a tank left when she got back home. Even on fuel that thing is damn cheap to run. If only it was a few feet taller with an extra 4 or 5 seats and all wheel drive LOL.

[Matto]

Thats crazy...Ive built a ton of LPG powered cars over the years ...

I think that's the difference right there. You're building these motors up to suit LPG, with high compression, high boost and agressive timing - all things you can do thanks to LPG. I suspect that the cars you've listed were all set up for straight gas too, not dual fuel. When you simply bung an LPG system onto a stock motor and have to be able to run ULP as well, a lot of the really good benefits of LPG go out the window and you're left in campingwithkids' territory.

The increasing of the excise is another problem with LPG, and the fact that regular roadmapped increases were on the gov's plans when they offered the big conversion rebats (in my opinion) ended up with a lot of people converting their vehicles over only to find that the cost of LPG kept going up. To be fair, the fed gov has never hidden it's plans to increase the excise, but I'm sure LPG conversion shops didn't exactly go out of their way to warn potential customers away from them   .

That said, I've no experience with the newer injected, computerised LPG systems, other than to know that they're much better than the old mixer systems ever were. I've toyed with converting the notoriously thirsty Pathfinder over to LPG on a couple of occasions, but just can't bring myself to do it. When someone shows me how I can carry a jerry can of LPG, maybe I'll consider it again .

Back on topic - interesting figures Lost. Very interesting indeed.

Thanks!
Matto

[rotare]

The Victorian Automobile Chamber of Commerce said the decline had been so marked that many businesses specialising in repairing and servicing LPG-fuelled vehicles could soon be wiped out. The LPG automotive service and repair industry will hold a crisis meeting tonight.

A large part of the problem IMO within that industry is the installers "milking" the subsidies.  A few years ago I enquired about getting a system installed and was quoted X amount.  A month or so later the government announced they would subsidy the LPG installations by $2000 (from memory in SA).  I thought I'd take advantage of this generous offer by the government, so I called back the installers to book in the car to have a system fitted and by sheer coincidence the quote for the LPG system had increased by $2000 since my query a month earlier. This was the same "theme" amongst all installers I called - they simply jacked up the price equivalent to the rebate being offered.

When I informed them they had quoted $2000 less a month earlier, they couldn't give a damn as with the announcement of the new subsidy scheme they were now flat out and had been booked out for installs for the next 6 months!

On this basis I have very little sympathy for that industry if they're doing it tough now - they raped and pillaged and made bucket loads of profit when the going was good for them..... how things change. 

[Matto]

On this basis I have very little sympathy for that industry if they're doing it tough now - they raped and pillaged and made bucket loads of profit when the going was good for them..... how things change.

Same thing happened in QLD when the state gov introduced the water tank rebate. Voila, the price of water tanks went up by the same amount (if I remember correctly, +$1000???). The problem was that in that instance it was the wholesale price of the tanks that went up. So the final company dealing with the customer got shafted and bore the brunt of the recriminations, yet had no hand in the pricing. The only winners were the gov (more tax on a higher sale price) and the manufacturers.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it might not be entirely the LPG installers that are at fault here (it might be, I don't know) - there's a lot of links to most supply chains, and anyone along the way might decide they can take advantage.

</aside>

Cheers!
Matto

[UR-50-LO]

I think that's the difference right there. You're building these motors up to suit LPG, with high compression, high boost and agressive timing - all things you can do thanks to LPG. I suspect that the cars you've listed were all set up for straight gas too, not dual fuel. When you simply bung an LPG system onto a stock motor and have to be able to run ULP as well, a lot of the really good benefits of LPG go out the window and you're left in campingwithkids' territory.

Thanks!
Matto

Totally agree with you, and yep you are sorta right. Most of those cars were built for straight gas & performance, and thats where the big advantage is.
However the Maverick was built as a dual fuel vehicle. First a 4.2 then an injected 5 litre, theres a build up thread of it on here somewhere.
Also had a dual fuel VR wagon built for the missus and now my current Prado is also on dual fuel. All have used 2nd hand IMPCO items and been alot cheaper to run on gas then on petrol. I have a mate that is a great installer and tuner and have never had teh economy other people complain of. It's all in the setup and tune IMO...What the future holds with all these bull**** taxes coming though who knows, but if it gets remotely close to fuel prices I will sell it and buy a diesel for sure..

[lockyer]

Mine is a 2.7 Ltr Ford Courier and when I looked into fitting the gas was offered the old system v's the new (VSI) price difference was approx $1000, I also researched everything I could find on the net before talking to installers and knew that the Couriers motor's run very well on gas, the installer told me most Fords in general are designed to be run on gas. Our friends have gas on there late 90"s Pajero 4wd and they travelled for 2 years with a 17 ft van around Oz and there was only a couple of places that they filled a gerry can with fuel but never did need it.

Cheers

[Bird]

On this basis I have very little sympathy for that industry if they're doing it tough now - they raped and pillaged and made bucket loads of profit when the going was good for them..... how things change.

up the road here at Whitehorse Rd Blackburn, there was a tyre shop Friday, Monday morning it was an LPG fitting station

I notice in the last few mths, miracle by miracle its a Tyre joint again!

[kiwipete]

Am I right is assuming that the price of LPG is rising with the rise in LPG cars on the road... ?   

As demand increases so does the price of the commodity and now they want everyone to use electricity... So there will be more demand on the infrastructure and everyone will pay as or electricity goes for 13cents per KW to 50cents per KW on and upwards..   I am expecting in 10 years time electricity will be 50c/KW  ....

Prepare now.....

[jetcrew]

Govt missed the boat on the whole gas thing, they should have mandated the electronic systems for the rebates. when I paid to get mine installed the system was crap and after a few interesting disscussions found out the installers were just using up any old stock of gas gear they had.

The older type dump and burn systems were ineffienct and are why people remember using 2 x the gas to fuel, but when it was only 29c  it was ok , then the price went up and the systems were still ineffienct hence the MSI /SVI systems came onto the market trying to level back out the playing field .

If gas costs more the systems need to be more effecient. But now that the govt has forked out millions in taxpayers $$ to have older style systems installed ..they are running out of money. And when punters try to upgrade the system to the more effecient eklectrnic ones they must wear the cost as the rebate has been paid once on the vehical.

I just ended up ripping out the gas system as it was always a hassle and costs were racking up to keep it in tune, had I got the electronic system I guess my reflections would be different.

The figures of gas ONLY cars do not surprise me 1 bit. My mate bought one of the ford utes the RV ones that was gas only, prob was he could not go anywhere with it as he was reliant on gas avail. I told him to go to supercheap and ask for an LPG gerry can ...LOL

Jet  

[baldheadedgit]

Jetcrew.... dont laugh... its been done before, not quite a jerry can though..
I know a guy who made up a hose with the correct fittings,, carried a spare bottle in the back tray.....


BHG

[jetcrew]

Jetcrew.... dont laugh... its been done before, not quite a jerry can though..
I know a guy who made up a hose with the correct fittings,, carried a spare bottle in the back tray.....


BHG

Imagine the looks with 6 x 9kg gas bottles strapped to the tray with hoses and stuff, he'd look like a suicide bomber...

funny part was a nearly convinced him they existed "yeah mate seen em in there in the 4th isle with the other jerrys" $29.99" then i smiled and he knew I was full of BS.

Jet

[Bird]

Am I right is assuming that the price of LPG is rising with the rise in LPG cars on the road... ?   

nope
About 6-7yrs ago the Gov said they were going to rise the excise on it over the next 10 -12yrs.

Then they suckered everyone into jumping on the LPG band wagon with rebates!!!! Hook line and sinker.. thus why the gov wasnt worried about losing $ with the rebates.

now people are complaining that its getting expensive.

[GeeTee]

Unless you have a SVI system like on my wife's Mitsu 380.

We find that on average we are using only 10-15% more LPG per km.  So with prices around 73 cpl the equivalent petrol price is around 84cpl.

Still remarkable value for us.

We paid off the conversion in just over 14 months and are still pocketing the difference!!

Yep I have injected/EFI LPG on my 2005 V6 Hilux 4.0L (50+Kkm annually) and it's awesome. Use about 15-20 percent more litres per 100 kays. No need to change the oil as often either, so more savinsg there, too.

[Crockett]

Why has liquid LPG injection never got off the ground, It is meant to give better economy than petrol.
I remember the guy on the ABC New Inventors who had it on an old XE or XF Ford.

[Jason B]

I made the mistake of converting a pervious 4.5 petrol 80 series I had to gas some years ago. Not only did it consume about twice the amount of gas per 100km, it lost about 40% of its power, to the point that it could not hold 110kph up big hills on the freeway. We could push the button on the dash an go back to unleaded and it would cruise up the hills.

Worst mistake I ever made and a total waste of $$$.

I believe that the new systems are better, but I would never go there again. My adventra has a 5.7lt V8 in it that doesn't mind a drink but I can live with economy of 17 around town an 12 on the hwy.


Also with gas many require that you run FLASHLUBE of some other lubricant and by the time you factor in that cost you are not that far infront.

Gas - not for me.


Regards


Jas