Carbon monoxide concerns when cooking in an enclosed annex?

[lynh]

It was raining on our inaugural trip with the new Tambo so we set up the full annex walls while we cooked dinner. Our two bubs were sleeping in the tent inside. Reading all the warnings on the stove while cooking I became concerned about lack of ventilation and made hubby take down 2 walls despite the weather. I am super paranoid after that UK family died camping after leaving a disposable BBQ in their annex. Is there a rule of thumb about how many walls to leave off? Do any of you carry carbon monoxide alarms? The stuff terrifies me!

[McGirr]

Personally I cannot see a problem as there will always be windows with air circulation. Even in an annex there will be air moving around.

I have never worried about it.

Mark

[Mace]

The deaths in England and the recent three fatalaties in Tasmania arose after extended exposure to carbon monoxide. By extended,  I mean that the solid fuel bbq (in England) and the gas appliance  in the caravan (in Tas) had remained in a fully enclosed space  for a long period of time (several hours).

Your annex should  have sufficient natural ventilation (in, under and around the floor) to dissipate  gasses during short cooking periods.  If you are  concerned, leave the door flap open during longer cooking sessions.

Personally, we prefer to cook over the campfire outside (even in the rain).

 

[MDSimpson]

I would asume that within an annex, there is enough tiny air gaps to prevent the bld up of gasses while cooking, and i am not sure how much carbon monoxide is created when cooking. Reading these stories on deaths, it sounds like they were all in sealed up vans, with rubber seals around doors and windows.

Let me pose this question. Most/all of the campers we have looked at recently, all have little 'air' holes in the canvas in each corner, with labels advising not to block.
These are on Jayco Swans, and some other similar pop tops.

Would these be sufficient to prevent the build up of carbon monoxide gas?

Also, when we do buy a camper, I will be fitting a Truma gas air heating system (so there are NO excuses to get away). Does anyone know if they are NLT/installed in such a way to prevent this buildup? They do have exhaust plumbing, so I would assume all would be ok.




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[cruisindub]

Don't be terrified.
Be concerned,  which obviously you are.
at least you are thinking about it and are aware.
If you feel concerned about something you are likely to act on it, rather than ignorant bliss.
I think 2 walls is probably over kill, but if it made you rest easy then relax,you did fine.
Without knowing your set up, I would think that leaving a door open or a flap open would suffice while cooking.

[Mace]

Would these be sufficient to prevent the build up of carbon monoxide gas?

Also, when we do buy a camper, I will be fitting a Truma gas air heating system (so there are NO excuses to get away). Does anyone know if they are NLT/installed in such a way to prevent this buildup? They do have exhaust plumbing, so I would assume all would be ok.

1.. They would help aid the circulation of air.   I still wouldnt put a non vented radiant gas heater in an enclosed annex tho.

2. Will be ok, run on a heat exchanger system as you have said. 

[Spurio]

 - 25% of the wall space should be open to allow ventilation.

[Bird]

Do any of you carry carbon monoxide alarms?

Your kidding arent you?

Is it April 1 again?

[Estelle]

Your kidding arent you?

Is it April 1 again?

Sounds reasonable to me. If you are concerned or worried about something and can do something about those concerns with a device, then why not?

Ed: from WikiPedia

Elevated levels of CO can be dangerous to humans depending on the amount present and length of exposure. Smaller concentrations can be harmful over longer periods of time while increasing concentrations require diminishing exposure times to be harmful.[2]

[Crockett]

What Lost said


LPG produces CO2 when burnt....... So in theory your as likely to asphyxiate your self by your own exhaled air.

[Fridge Magnet]

What Lost said


LPG produces CO2 when burnt....... So in theory your as likely to asphyxiate your self by your own exhaled air.

That's just wrong, propane (and any other hydrocarbon) produces CO2 and CO when burnt. As to the theory....

I think it's a fair question with the colder weather and especially with small kids sleeping on the floor.






 

[McGirr]

Do any of you carry carbon monoxide alarms?

They do make them and if it makes you feel comfortable and safe camping, I would grab one.

I think they are $35 -$40

Mark

[Eureka]

Carbon monoxide is not commonly produced with anything a camper would use .  CO2 is very common - all our fuel/gas/charcoal stoves and heaters will produce CO2.   CO will only be made by a VERY poorly operating stove (regardless of fuel) - basically you need the stove to be mixing  in so little air that the CO will not reach combustion temp  on contact with the outside air.  So carbon monoxide in an annexe is very unlikely.
However CO2 is very easily made and build up. CO2 is bad enough, but no where near as bad as CO.  CO2 is heavier than air, and your body knows about CO2 and so will give you warning symptoms - headache is the easiest one to notice. Your body has no knowledge of CO and so there is usually no indication of CO build up to warn you. But one thing to know, CO is combustable and explosively so in the right conditions, CO2 is inert.
 So if you  are running a stove or heater in your annexe, leaving the  'draught stopper' off or open when it is raining would be enough to stop CO2 building up and keep the annexe internals dry.

Gen sets - NEVER operate one inside an annexe or van- simple.

NEVER run a kero, gas or charcoal heater in an annexe or van that is totally sealed up. You need at least a 6" x 4" free flow air inlet and outlet open for air flow for 4 people and heater to operate reasonably safely . 

[Fridge Magnet]

Carbon monoxide is not commonly produced with anything a camper would use.

I won't write anything more about this, as I honestly don't think that cooking a meal or making the odd cuppa is anything to worry about, but I disagree with what you're saying. It's quite possible that a cheap or defective or old camping stove won't achieve complete combustion. Also possible that if one is left burning for a prolonged period in a confined space with a few people that not enough O2 will be available to achieve complete combustion after a time. There are warning signs of CO poisoning (not that you'd notice if you were asleep). Agree completely with the rest, although IMO using any type of combustion (kero or gas) space heater in a tent while you're sleeping is a risk I wouldn't take.

http://www.propane101.com/carbonmonoxideandpropane.htm

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/5008.html

This would be safer   

         

[Crockett]

As to the theory....

Same one that causes poor desperate refugee seeking people to die in sea containers and delivery trucks,, and the reason we don't let kids play with plastic bags,,,,WE Exhale CO2 when we breath and if left in a NON VENTED space for an extended period of time oxygen levels will become depleted and you will die,,,,, that theory

I have Kids, and ever since they were born, I became mortal, as a parent we spend the rest of our lives trying to do the best for our kids and keep them SAFE.
Take whatever precautions you think are necessary to protect your own children and family, whether that is leaving a door open or installing a sniffer/monitor.
When I posted up 183 people had viewed this and no one had stated that CO2 was the most common form (and water vapour) of waste gas produced by burning LPG.
Thanks Eureka for the explanation that I should have included.
Sorry if what i said offended or incensed anyone, but that's what Forums are for, to share opinionated knowledge,,, be a bit bland otherwise 

Cheers Dave

[NewMax]

Quite a few years ago three young guys died about 400 metres from where we were in an alpine town in New Zealand They were sleeping in their car and running a small gas cooker in a sealed car late in the evening to help keep warm. Okay not very smart but all were under 20 and clearly did not know the risks.  Young fit guys ready to climb a mountain the next day. Sealed car different to a camper but still a wake up call for us.  Our camper - JAYCO - has a vent low down on the floor to allow LPG gas ( heavier than air) to vent outside if there is a leak

[Eureka]

Fridge magnet - Agree about old or cheap stoves - but while they can generate CO  it is usually only when they are so bad you get sick from the gas smell additive first. Charcoal braziers are the worst offenders for CO supposedly ( been looking around the net, quiet day at work!)

 And I hate the thought of cooking inside canvas - one decent  oil flare up , or cooking a lot of food near canvas and I can see the canvas is going to become very dry and flammable - not good! Definitely agree on that one too!

CO2 is what kills th epeople who run gas fires/heaters in cars refugee boats etc. The most common one for this sort of death are yachties sitting at moorings!

[lynh]

I can't believe I didn't think of simply removing the draught skirt (cue emoticon for mortified blushing...)

[austastar]

Hi,
   with complete combustion, a normal flame doesn't produce much Carbon monoxide, it is mostly Carbon Dioxide, which is not actually poisonous.
Yes, if there is enough in the air you can be deprived of Oxygen, and that is not good, but you will not normally have ill effect of Carbon Dioxide suffocation from a flame. If the flame has enough oxygen, so do you, (usually).


Carbon monoxide is one atom of Oxygen short of Carbon Dioxide, i.e. in a yellow burning flame without much oxygen there isn't enough to complete the combustion and the dangerous monoxide is produced.


This has such an affinity for Oxygen, it will literally rip it out of your blood stream in your lungs whe you breathe it, and in doing this it damages the haemaglobin (red cells) to the point where they are now not capable of carrying Oxygen any more.
i.e. Carbon monoxide does damage to your blood cells and isn't repairable, you are now oxygen deprived until either the red cells are replaced or you are treated in a hyperbaric pressure chamber at about 1 atmosphere positive pressure and you are given a stream of pure oxygen to breath to saturate the remaining red cells capable of carrying oxygen to the body.


It can take a long time to fully recover from the damaged red cells, they take time to reproduce, and a person can suffer further damage after they are returned to normal fresh air.


A person suffering sever Carbon Monoxide poisoning will exhibit blotchy red patches of skin where the damaged blood pools in the body on death.


Disclaimer: I'm not medically trained, this is just what I have picked up working in a medical environment as a technical officer.


cheers