Author Topic: NSW firearms bill being ammended. (Read 8139 times)

christofurry · « **on:** February 23, 2012, 09:03:09 AM »

Guys,

Whilst some people might not agree with firearms, in reality a lot of us who go offroad and use our 4wds or campers go hunting, shot targets or even pop the odd bunny off. At present the NSW gvernment is trying to ammend the firearms bill in a way that will seriously affect how we purchase our ammunition. Below is the link to the petition to try and stop this from happening.

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/barry-o-farrell-stop-your-attack-on-law-abiding-firea.html

General overview of the changes:

Overview of Bill
The object of this Bill is to amend the Firearms Act 1996 as follows:
(a) to prevent the sale of ammunition by a licensed firearms dealer to a shooter unless the purchaser is the registered owner of, or has a permit to acquire, a firearm that takes the ammunition (in addition to the existing requirement that the purchaser must hold a licence or permit for a firearm that takes the ammunition),
(b) to require licensed firearms dealers to keep records of purchases and sales of ammunition.

More info at
http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/nswbills.nsf/0/7D714D724CF1852DCA2579A4001B0B8C?Open&shownotes

Regards Chris

Mace · « **Reply #1 on:** February 23, 2012, 09:40:19 AM »

Things dont get any easier do they!

Havnt purchased any ammunition for the past 18 months, but the system looks more honerous than what I thought were the requirements here in vic. It would seem that you will only be able to purchase if you have a firearm of that calibre.

I purchase thru a stock and station agent so I am an account holder there and well known. They sight my shooters licence at the time of purchase. When I purchase, an acount in my name is raised and I pay cash. The supplier can then track this purchase record thru their computer. I would imagine most large ammunition re-sellers have a PC based office system, so purchase tracking should not be a major issue IMO.

I would be interested to know though, if the supplier has to track the fact he had checked the customers "right" to purchase (ie, verified the customer has a firearm of that calibre) every time a purchase occurs. That would certainly be an honerous task for both the dealer and the customer.

Another example though, of how the majority of law abiding hunters and shooters out here are effected by the actions of a few (percentage wise) persons with criminal intent.

Redback · « **Reply #2 on:** February 23, 2012, 10:08:35 AM »

This may sound like a silly question, but why would you buy differant amunition to what your gun takes and why wouldn't a dealer keep records of sales

Baz.

Mace · « **Reply #3 on:** February 23, 2012, 10:13:45 AM »

Quote from: Redback on February 23, 2012, 10:08:35 AM

but why would you buy differant amunition to what your gun takes
Baz.

Gday Baz,

Yep, there's the "Criminal intent" potential.

dazzler · « **Reply #4 on:** February 23, 2012, 10:21:59 AM »

Hi Chris,

I have no issue with guns and consider it a legitimate sport.

One benefit would be that ammunition linked to a crime can easily be traced back to the purchaser. I know that when Asst Comm Winchester was murdered in canberra that the feds spent a lot of $$$ tracing the ammunition that was used to find the murdidlyurderer.

I think Tassie has the same restrictions.

What exactly will the impact be practically to the shooter?

christofurry · « **Reply #5 on:** February 23, 2012, 10:32:39 AM »

If passed this would mean nobody else could by ammunition for you. You could only buy ammunition for the guns you own, and would have to prove that to the dealer before he would let you buy them. The paperwork would send the dealer up the wall! Every round of ammunition would need to be accounted for (possibly even have a S/N) and the paperwork kept in archive basically forever. To buy ammunition you would need to carry yet another piece of paper that shows what guns are registed to you. This could easily be faked. If this does pass the only way I could see it working is that everytime you buy or sell a gun (sometimes often) your licence is re issued with the new registration numbers on the back. The time it takes to process the paperwork to buy/sell a gun with the NSW firearms registry is weeks! So new gun today, no ammunition for over 4 weeks to use it...

It stops the wife (who is licenced and just dosent have any guns registered to her licence) buying your ammunition and bringing it home.

Another common example, on my parents property the guns are registered in my name, yet Im rarely there and dad (who has a licence) uses them occasionally, maintains them and buys ammunition for them.

Also when living on a rural property outside of town it stops a friend or mate who is licenced picking up your ammunition whilst in town. I have lots of friends who have licences, yet dont nessesarly have guns registered to them.

This wont stop the criminals getting guns, it wont stop criminals getting ammunition, it wont stop drive by shootings, it wont stop the wrong guys shooting at each other. It will juts make things harder for people who try and do the right thing.

My view anyway. If you dissagree, dont sign the petition.

biggles1024 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 23, 2012, 12:43:33 PM »

Quote from: Redback on February 23, 2012, 10:08:35 AM

This may sound like a silly question, but why would you buy differant amunition to what your gun takes and why wouldn't a dealer keep records of sales

Baz.

You might be buying on behalf of a mate or a fellow club member or members, I've done this a number of times or you might be buying in anticipation of soon owning particular calibre firearm i.e. have spotted a bargain.

As for keeping records of sales, why would they? Individual rounds don't carry serial numbers or batch numbers, only the packaging does. And that only applies to factory loaded ammunition, not that which you reload for yourself.

biggles1024 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 23, 2012, 12:49:29 PM »

Quote from: dazzler on February 23, 2012, 10:21:59 AM

Hi Chris,

I have no issue with guns and consider it a legitimate sport.

One benefit would be that ammunition linked to a crime can easily be traced back to the purchaser. I know that when Asst Comm Winchester was murdered in canberra that the feds spent a lot of $$$ tracing the ammunition that was used to find the murdidlyurderer.

I think Tassie has the same restrictions.

What exactly will the impact be practically to the shooter?

Just how pray tell, did they manage that? Invidiual rounds traced back to a customer or a fired projectile traced back to the firearm from which it was discharged?

Victoria has just introduced legislation from WorkSafe whereby all purchases of primers and powder must be recorded. Just more paper work for under worked bureaucrats. We already have restrictions on the amount of each that may be stored by both inviduals and retailers, why the extra records? Possible pointer to terrorist activity? I doubt it. I don't think terrorists go to the trouble and expense of attending and passing safety courses, obtaining licences etc and then making legitimate purchases and besides, there are plenty of other sources of explosive material available. That reminds me, I need to buy some petrol today, before the next price rise.

Cheers,

Redback · « **Reply #8 on:** February 23, 2012, 01:05:39 PM »

Quote from: biggles1024 on February 23, 2012, 12:43:33 PM

As for keeping records of sales, why would they? Individual rounds don't carry serial numbers or batch numbers, only the packaging does. And that only applies to factory loaded ammunition, not that which you reload for yourself.

I think any form of record kept is another or extra resoarce for investigaters to find who purchased that calibar recently from those records and along with video survailence, speak to them, may help, especially the video if the person has left false ID.

Baz.

biggles1024 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 23, 2012, 01:11:11 PM »

Quote from: Redback on February 23, 2012, 01:05:39 PM

I think any form of record kept is another or extra resoarce for investigaters to find who purchased that calibar recently from those records and along with video survailence, speak to them, may help, especially the video if the person has left false ID.

Baz.

I think its just another example of demonising law abiding citizens under the guise of taking a "tough stance against criminals". You're assuming the every point of sale has video survailence and even then that doesn't take into account ammunition reloaded by individuals or that criminals (most likely) don't pay for theirs.

I see this as a precursor to limiting how much ammunition can be purchased at one time or over a period of X months which will further drive up the cost of shooting and like most other measures that have been introduced since the start of licencing, have no effect whatsoever on anyone other than law abiding citizens.

Cheers,

Mark.

9775Andrew · « **Reply #10 on:** February 23, 2012, 04:08:42 PM »

Lets just make anyform of gun ownership so hard that everyone says stuff it. how many people have given up legitimate guns because of the crap you have to go through to keep up with legislation / licencing. That is the whole intent at the end of the day. Little by little your rights are stripped away and before you know ya thinking "how did that happen"

This doesn't just apply to gun ownership, 4WDing, Camping, Horseriding, Fishing, Trail Bikes and of course Shooting. All things our parents did without a single licence, training course, required association membership or annual fee

Most anti gun people have never seen let alone held a gun and so they quickly down the entire concept of gun ownership. If this applies to you it's a lot like "lock up the national parks because of 4WD and Campers are damaging the environment" .......... unless it effects you most people are easily convinced it must be a good idea to scrap it.

Once again we have knee jerk reactions from pissweak Pollies caving to media pressure.

JMO of course!

dazzler · « **Reply #11 on:** February 23, 2012, 04:59:42 PM »

Quote from: biggles1024 on February 23, 2012, 12:49:29 PM

Just how pray tell, did they manage that? Invidiual rounds traced back to a customer or a fired projectile traced back to the firearm from which it was discharged?

Cheers,

Hi Biggles

It went something like this from a forensic perspective. Some cartridges were found at the scene and they had propellent residue left in them. The propellant has a 'signature' of how it was mixed together, like a cake. No two are the same though they may be very very similar, almost identical.

Some propellent was found in the suspects boot. It was examined and found to be consistent with a certain brand of ammunition.

The two are compared and found to be the same. This links the propellent at the scene to the offenders vehicle. From there I think they worked out the batch number for the cartridges and linked the offender to the purchase.

It went something like that (keep in mind this was 20yrs ago

and I am not a scientific bloke by any stretch )

Similar to when bombs go off. The investigators try to find residue to link it back to the offender.

In a more practical sense if Kevin shoots Julia and then ditches the weapon provided the cops can find a cartridge with some residue at the scene (or off the body/clothes etc) they can link the residue with the brand and batch of cartridges and who bought them.

If you look at the winchester investigation they couldnt find the weapon that fired the shot (a ruger). So they set about accounting for every single one ever sold and proved that the missing one could be the only one that fired the shot.

Anyways, I can see some benefit to law enforcement but think its a bit of overkill. The easiest thing would be that prior to a rifle being sold to the firearms dealer that its test fired and the fired round is digitally scanned and stored on disc. Then, if a cartridge is found at a crime scene they scan it and look for a match.

Whoever bought the gun from the dealer is the first point of contact with the plods.

Simple, cost efficient and no annoyance to the public. And lets face it, the vast majority of shootings are by people that know each other, normally family or ex friends, so its pretty easy to find em.

cheers

Renno · « **Reply #12 on:** February 23, 2012, 05:00:09 PM »

One again, something that only effects the honest law abiding people out there..
No idea.
Renno

Renno · « **Reply #13 on:** February 23, 2012, 05:06:04 PM »

Registered guns don't kill people.
Ne jerk reaction to the shootings in Sydney, they ave to do something.. They really need to amongst other (all) offences increase the minimum penalties. Any gun crime should be punished harshly. I've spoken to a lot of crooks in my time and asked if they thought they would get 10 years for breaking into the old ladies home would they have done it, they all say no.
Need to start with the piss weak judicial system...
Don't start me on that....
Rant over...
Renno

danielhobby · « **Reply #14 on:** February 23, 2012, 05:09:10 PM »

Quote from: Redback on February 23, 2012, 10:08:35 AM

This may sound like a silly question, but why would you buy differant amunition to what your gun takes and why wouldn't a dealer keep records of sales

Baz.

if for instance i want to borrow a mates rifle and it is a type i am licensed to shoot but he has no ammo for it so i go to oreillys and am not allowed to purchase say 308 cal when i own a 3006 cal,are they saying i am not fit to purchase?

danielhobby · « **Reply #15 on:** February 23, 2012, 05:24:21 PM »

back in 1992 i had my 29 year old sister murdered by a gun weilding arsehole who took a 12 ga shotgun,cut the barrel down to conceal it in a bag,pulled his f100 up outside her office door,left his door open and motor running for quick escape and went inside and shot her in the head.she died 90 minutes later in hospital.all because she told him(after 2months of dating)that it was over and she didnt want to see him anymore.it was a case of if i cant have you noone can!!.It is the evil minded pricks with no sense of humanity who are the problem,not the law abideing people who study gun laws and game guides and apply for licenses and who worry about storage and safety etc.In my oppinion there should be a ten year compulsory jail sentence if a firearm is produced during a crime on humans or it is insinuated that the person has a firearm-------- on TOP of the sentece for the intended crime.thats my rant for now,sorry if i have said to much for some.

Tim - Stratford · « **Reply #16 on:** February 23, 2012, 05:48:45 PM »

It will depend on how it is legislated....ie type of firearm owned = type of ammo allowed to be purchased.

This may be as specific as calibre or as general as class - ie if you have a centrefire rifle you can buy any ammo with centre primer - centrefire rifle of pistol.

In Vic you can be charged for having the incorrect ammo for your licence but with the way in which the licence categories are this doesn't pose many problems.

Tim

UR-50-LO · « **Reply #17 on:** February 23, 2012, 06:17:19 PM »

80lb compound bow...Take down almost any living thing and no BS rules or licensing...YEP, rediculous ain't it!!!

biggles1024 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 23, 2012, 07:21:33 PM »

Thanks for the explanation, but it seems to me to just one of many factors that were used in the investigation and that the purchase of the ammunition on its own would have proven nothing.
And again I have to point out, that all this sampling and testing won't work on handloaded ammunition only factory loaded. If I want centre fire ammunition for my centre fire pistol, I buy powder, projectiles and primers. I already have the brass cases. I can't buy them all from the same place, because no one place sells everything I need, except ironically, my pistol club.

Quote from: dazzler on February 23, 2012, 04:59:42 PM

Hi Biggles

It went something like this from a forensic perspective. Some cartridges were found at the scene and they had propellent residue left in them. The propellant has a 'signature' of how it was mixed together, like a cake. No two are the same though they may be very very similar, almost identical.

<snip>

Anyways, I can see some benefit to law enforcement but think its a bit of overkill. The easiest thing would be that prior to a rifle being sold to the firearms dealer that its test fired and the fired round is digitally scanned and stored on disc. Then, if a cartridge is found at a crime scene they scan it and look for a match.

Nice try.

Barrels wear out and have to be replaced. Some rifles in particular, have multiple barrels and some target pistols are designed to fire two different calibres. How would your system cope with those scenarios?

Quote from: dazzler on February 23, 2012, 04:59:42 PM

Whoever bought the gun from the dealer is the first point of contact with the plods..

The frequency and number of times some firearms change hands would amaze you. And if you think that the various state govt agencies that have setup to handle registration of firearms have complete sets of data and that all of it is entered accurately, think again. The chances of a 'paper trail' especially an electronic one containing gaps, is quite high in my experience. The last time I sought to buy a pistol, the Victorian Licensing Services Division told me that the barrel length that I had entered on my application form was wrong despite me having taken that information from the Registration Certificate that they themselves had issued to the guy I was buying it from.

Quote from: dazzler on February 23, 2012, 04:59:42 PM

Simple, cost efficient and no annoyance to the public. And lets face it, the vast majority of shootings are by people that know each other, normally family or ex friends, so its pretty easy to find em.

cheers

Simple and cost efficient? What you propose is anything but either of those things. No annoyance to the public? Frankly, I'm sick and tired of "the public" sticking its collective nose into my business so I don't care if the public, the majority of whom never have any contact with firearms except when they see them being carried by police and security guards are annoyed or not.

Cheers,

dazzler · « **Reply #19 on:** February 23, 2012, 08:04:38 PM »

Hey biggles

I am not behind this fella. I dont give a rats about it. Dont care one hoot about it. I was simply making a point as to a benefit of the changes that some may not have thought of and what is probably the real reason its being put forth.

You asked about the forensics and I explained it.

Do what you like with your guns, shoot em, lick em, dress em up, I really dont care.

outback jack · « **Reply #20 on:** February 23, 2012, 08:17:04 PM »

Quote from: Tim - Stratford on February 23, 2012, 05:48:45 PM

In Vic you can be charged for having the incorrect ammo for your licence but with the way in which the licence categories are this doesn't pose many problems.

Tim

not sure how that works, i have 4 guns and i have bought my ammo from the same place for many years and they don't even ask to see my licence (i reckon i could buy any ammo from them with no questions asked)

Mace · « **Reply #21 on:** February 23, 2012, 11:16:02 PM »

I could see from post one how this thread would end up!

There are no winners and no loosers here!

Guess you can call me a moderate. I was allways told by my father (at age 12) that firearms use was a previilage, not a right. He could withdraw that right at any time. I guess big brother has taken over from him.

I enjoy using my guns, but I reckon you shoud be made to deserve the right to posses and use them.

christofurry · « **Reply #22 on:** May 10, 2012, 09:47:34 AM »

http://www.shootersandfishers.org.au/news/nsw-government-passes-ammo-bill

The bill got ammended...

Now have to do a Permit to Aquire Ammunition ($30)

Fun Police · « **Reply #23 on:** May 10, 2012, 10:36:40 AM »

"I'd like a single box of rimfire .22 please".

"That'll be $7, plus a $30 permit, thank you"

What a JOKE!!

The Shooters Party better block the power sale legislation and stuff the government!!

Draggin · « **Reply #24 on:** May 10, 2012, 12:26:55 PM »

What it boils down to is that the poor buggers (pollies) "must be seen to be doing something".

I don't believe these changes to the firearm laws will make one bit of difference to gun "crime".

The crooks and random angry people who use a firearm to murder or intimidate, will not give a rats about "legislation".

What is required is REAL penalties and REAL police powers to arrest/detain offenders. Less bleeding hearts helping the poor offenders - give 'em hell I reckon. Make the b!@#$%^ds reconsider their actions prior to committing offences.

Stay safe and lets hope no (more) innocent bystanders are caught up in the bikie wars.

News:

Author Topic: NSW firearms bill being ammended. (Read 8139 times)