Aviation in OZ

[swamprat]

Interesting to read all the posts regarding the current situation at Qantas. It seems that a few members have some vitriolic views about unions etc. and management. It is a pity that some of the facts were missing. One member mentioned the so called pilots strike in the 80's. Wrong! The pilots didn't go on strike, they all resigned. They got some so called advice from a QC who said that if they all resigned the airlines would cave in. They didn't and the domestic aviation recovered and went on to the situation we have today with cheap fares and reduced service.
Someone suggested the Ansett collapse was a result of union action. Wrong! Ansett was bought by an overseas airline and asset stripped to the point it couldn't survive. 8500 good people out of a job.
Someone did mention the private consortium that nearly bought Qantas in 2006/7. They missed out by 4 hours and if they were successful Qantas would not exist today because the consortium went broke in the 2008 GFC.
Qantas doesn't want to operate as Qantas, they want to operate as Jetstar primarily and just fly to LA and London as Qantas.

I was also wondering how many posters work in the FIFO mining industry? You want to hope the chinese will still be prepared to pay the high prices for our resources when their economy starts to slow down as most economists predict. It didn't take long for the big miners to offload staff in 2008 when the GFC hit. How long can we keep paying cleaners in mining camps etc over 100k per year and truck drivers the same. A lot of planes work in this area and the airlines get top dollar for the fares.
I think Nick Zenifon mentioned how Qantas and Jetstar work their fuel costs to fiddle the books. Qantas is an airline that has had it's day but you can't blame their employees for trying to get a better deal. Don't we all want a better deal from our employer or customers?
Qantas pilots get s..t compared to pilots in the old guard airlines like Cathay/BA/SQ/ Emirates etc.
They have also not been on strike in this dispute.

Everyone have a deep breath, a Bex and a good lie down or  >:Dhave a beer and watch to sun go down. IT WILL STILL COME UP TOMORROW.

[Paul (SA)]

I reckon it takes two to tango. You can't have $500 billion profits and scream poor when your employees ask for improved wages and conditions. It always seems the shareholders take precedence over employees and customers (just ask the banking sector). And you can't compete with international carriers that are heavily subsidised by their governments and have hevily reduced overheads and expect to pay huge wages to employees. I can't help but agree with Dick Smith and his comments on ABC last night.

But I agree - everyone take a breath, go back to your corners and come out ready to get this sorted for the betterment of all.

Paul (SA)

PS And isn't it great we live in a country where we can argue and debate like this (even if we get things wrong) without fear of persecution or harm. Makes you appreciate the things we can easily take for granted in Oz.

[gronk]

Bad timing ( and judgment ) when the pilots ask for increased wages and the boss pleads poor and the very same day gets a $2million pay rise......what the ??

[GU_Thomo]

Well said Swamprat.

I am with you Gronk.
The last two CEOs & boards seem to have wrecked this airline.
I think the issues with the Pilots, Engineers and Ground staff are the symptom not the problem.

Cheers
Parry

[D4D]

You can't have $500 billion profits

Just so the facts are correct, profit was $552 million before tax, not a lot from $15 billion in revenue. You try running a business on less than 4% margin, that is less than the supermarkets make.

[singo-26]

Anyone want to step into Alan Joyces shoes. If he gives in and the company goes belly up he will always be forever remembered, I he tries to negotiate and the industrial action continues, and the company goes belly up he will be forever remembered.

Looks like a loose/loose situation to me!

As does this thread, Personally I think this thread should be locked before it goes pear shaped like the one this morning.

[D4D]

This is a no pear thread

[singo-26]

All I've got is this.


 

[D4D]

Oh the joy, as if having Shorten and Ferguson in government wasn't enough...

The man who brought Qantas to its knees after waging one of the most aggressive union campaigns in the history of disputes is also set to become the next ALP national president.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/qantas-grounding-the-key-figures-in-the-dispute-between-alan-joyce-and-the-unions/story-e6freuy9-1226180479855

[Heiny]

Anyone want to step into Alan Joyces shoes. If he gives in and the company goes belly up he will always be forever remembered, I he tries to negotiate and the industrial action continues, and the company goes belly up he will be forever remembered.

Looks like a loose/loose situation to me!

As does this thread, Personally I think this thread should be locked before it goes pear shaped like the one this morning.

The only thing that went pear shaped on the other thread was that some people cant accept that others are entitled to voice their opinion, they also think their own opinion is the only one that should be heard The other thread was well within the guidelines of the General Discussion section

There have been far worse threads on this forum that have been left unlocked

bubba

[singo-26]

Hey Bubba

PM sent Mate.

[Heiny]

Hey Bubba

PM sent Mate.

Steve

bubba

[CRW]

I have have thoughts on this subject and the other thread, and whilst they may have inflamed others I thinks well it's like a TV show, if you don't like the thread then change the channel or just don't read it

[singo-26]

I have have thoughts on this subject and the other thread, and whilst they may have inflamed others I thinks well it's like a TV show, if you don't like the thread then change the channel or just don't read it

As do I, But at the moment our thoughts wont help anything, Unless we are prepared to step between the parties and mediate. And I aint taking on that role.   

[Snow]

The other thread got the chop (not by me btw) to curb what was becoming a fairly volitile exchange of opinion, some of which resorted to abuse to push the point. The other option to closing the thread down could have been the culling or editing of posts or PMs to the antagonists  but that would have just aggravated the already high emotion.

I enjoy reading a lively discussion and being in the aviation industry, I am keen to see good constructive discussion here, so please keep it civil.

Please take note of the following link prior to posting. http://myswag.org/forum/index.php?topic=2.0

 

[CRW]

As do I, But at the moment our thoughts wont help anything, Unless we are prepared to step between the parties and mediate. And I aint taking on that role.   

Someone has to sort out this crap, otherwise another Australian company will go down the drain

[Flemo]

I agree with unions in theory but lost any interest in sympathizing with them when I was spat and pissed on by the cfmeu at yandi in 2004 and then Joe McDonald burst into my office, called me a Fu(king (unt and said my house was gonna be firebombed and my family would die in 2005 when was working on the Perth to mandurah railway. I was only doing my job and worked for a company that had awu eba not cfmeu. Extreme case I know but it made me decide that unions were not for me. The union reps are scum! They don't loose their jobs but are the ones that cause all the sh1t.....Well done qantas, if they don't like it they are free to look elsewhere!

[Camping Grant]

QUOTE: "The only thing that went pear shaped on the other thread was that some people cant accept that others are entitled to voice their opinion, they also think their own opinion is the only one that should be heard"

pot/kettle???

QUOTE: "Well done again to Qantas to standing up to those who are holding them and the country to ransom, there should be more of it"

And that's not what Qantas are doing now??

QUOTE: "This recent industrial action had cost Qantas 70 million dollars to date (15 million per day) NO company regardless of size can sustain those losses"

Obviously Qantas can, because the actions of the board (and Joyce) are going to be costing $20 million per day (oh, and the unions actions were costing Qantas $15 million per week, not per day)

QUOTE: "Yes, timing was poor on this [in relation to Joyce's pay rise] but put it into perspective of what overseas CEO's get and it is still peanuts. The pilots, check in staff, baggage handlers etc are still the highest paid of any airline in Australia".

So you've compared the CEOs salary to overseas counterparts...but the pilots etc to Australia.  How does the salaries etc of pilots etc compare to overseas companies (Cathay, Thai, Emirates, Etihad et al)?

QUOTE: "These are the people along with the unions holding not only QANTAS but there paying passengers to ransom."

And that is now what Qantas is doing to its employees, and its paying passengers.

Look, I'm not on anyones side in this drama which is going to affect more than just the Qantas staff. It's going to affect everyone. The ongoing actions by the unions were hurting the company, and the economy of Australia, and the actions of Qantas management and CEO are going to really hurt the economy, especially the tourist industry which is struggling because of the high dollar and poor weather conditions last summer (especially in QLD), not to mention the GFC. Lets just hope they can get going again soon. The reason for all the quotes above (from this and another, now locked topic) is to float some ideas, and seek to correct some misquotes from others.

I do think it is time that the mods locked this topic as well.  Lets not all forget that this forum is about camper trailers, not airline politics. Lets all grab a coldie, chill, and get out there camping.

Cheers
Grant

[rotare]

I agree with unions in theory

I've worked in a few manufacturing industries including automotive, FMCG, wine and now the construction industry.  I can't say I have ever seen any union do anything constructive to the well being and profitability of any company I've worked for.  They seem to have one short term goal which is to get their members more money - period.  They are not interested in the long term prospect of the company and it seems like they're happy to meet their objectives by hook or by crook.

I wish I could be less biased, but I reckon the majority of Australian industries would be more productive, efficient, profitable and harmonious without unions.

[2 Brutal]

I've worked in a few manufacturing industries including automotive, FMCG, wine and now the construction industry.  I can't say I have ever seen any union do anything constructive to the well being and profitability of any company I've worked for.  They seem to have one short term goal which is to get their members more money - period.  They are not interested in the long term prospect of the company and it seems like they're happy to meet they're objectives by hook or by crook.

I wish I could be less biased, but I reckon the majority of Australian industries would be more productive, efficient, profitable and harmonious without unions.

 

[welchygq]

Bad timing ( and judgment ) when the pilots ask for increased wages and the boss pleads poor and the very same day gets a $2million pay rise......what the ??

Pilots havent asked for a payrise - they asked that only qantas pilots fly qantas planes

[Top.ender]

To all you people who are saying that they,ve never had a union do anything for them.I sympathize with you,but remember  a union is only as strong as its members!!!So perhaps what your saying reflects more on yourselves than any union.My union the ETU introduced EBAS which gave all contractors an level playing field when quoting jobs and i can assure you the only contractors that wer,nt happy withit where the grubby ones that tried to cut corners!!! The  decent contractors loved it as it allowed them to plan ahead without worrying about industrial action!!!!

[Heiny]

I've worked in a few manufacturing industries including automotive, FMCG, wine and now the construction industry.  I can't say I have ever seen any union do anything constructive to the well being and profitability of any company I've worked for.  They seem to have one short term goal which is to get their members more money - period.  They are not interested in the long term prospect of the company and it seems like they're happy to meet their objectives by hook or by crook.

I wish I could be less biased, but I reckon the majority of Australian industries would be more productive, efficient, profitable and harmonious without unions.

X 3

QUOTE: "Well done again to Qantas to standing up to those who are holding them and the country to ransom, there should be more of it"

And that's not what Qantas are doing now??

Yes it is, but it has bought it all to a head and there will be a result in days, not months!


QUOTE: "This recent industrial action had cost Qantas 70 million dollars to date (15 million per day) NO company regardless of size can sustain those losses"

Obviously Qantas can, because the actions of the board (and Joyce) are going to be costing $20 million per day (oh, and the unions actions were costing Qantas $15 million per week, not per day)

Firstly yes it was 15 million $ per week, my mistake and apologies, but the unions industrial action has been going on for months, the action by QANTAS will only last for days, therefore bringing this ongoing dispute this to a quick end, costing less in the long run.

I think this thread should be left open for discussion, it's the posters that need to respect others by not getting personal

bubba

[D4D]

Pilots havent asked for a payrise - they asked that only qantas pilots fly qantas planes

Yes the pliots have asked for more $, they want a 767 pilot to be paid the same as an A380 pilot, bzzzzt, one plane seats less than 200, one over 400. Want more money fly bigger planes.

It is interesting to hear the Union vitriol today that they won at FWA, they can spin anything no wonder most of them end up in the ALP.

[Symon]

In regards to unionism in my experience it all comes down to the particular union involved.  Unions have their place, and a lot of the working conditions we have today are the direct result of some union action in the past.  HOWEVER many of the unions today have destcructive (rather than constructive) agendas and are pushing for changes that simply don't make sense.  You know about these unions because they are in the news.  

There are many constructive unions that work well with employers and negotiate fair EBA's for both parties - you don't hear about these ones because it isn't newsworthy.

My word of warning - if your union leader has an english or irish accent, find a different union!

Edit - and people complain about the electrical threads... this topic needs a healthy dose of DC-DC charging with a good wrap of 6B&S...