Can-O-Worms #72 - New or Old?

[Matto]

Hi everyone,

So I have a dilemma, and I think it's something that everyone will have mulled over at one stage. So I thought I'd share, and get some feedback from our valued members as to how you each came to your decision.

The time is coming when we'll have to start thinking about upgrading the Pathfinder. I'd always assumed we'd upgrade to a GU or 100-series, anything from around 2006 on. If I could afford a 200-series, or the mythical "new" GU with the Renault v6, then they'd be my choice in a heartbeat. Alas, no one has offered to pay me a million dollars for either of my dogs, so here we are.

However, over late I'd been thinking heretical thoughts. This hasn't been helped by spending time on places like ExPo, where old rigs are held in just as high esteem as the brand new fancy kit. Along comes the latest 4WDAction, with a schmick GQ on the cover that puts a lot of new, bigger dollar 4WDs to shame. Speaking to Joff and reading about the others who've built 1HD-FTE 105 series cruisers for much less than other options hasn't helped. In short, I've started wondering if, when it comes to 4WDs that are actually used offroad, older may be better?

I've always been pretty OCD about my vehicles. Maintenance is always kept up, paint and panel are looked after / fixed when damaged, and so forth. They've been bought recently modern, and with the lowest kms I can find. I take a lot of pride in my vehicles, their modifications as well as their condition. But a part of me is secretly jealous of these guys in beat-up old 'Cruisers and Patrols that have never washed them and see no reason to start now. They're a utility - their value is derived from the places they go without needing to worry about scratching the paint or getting sand in the carpet.

I'm well aware that we all have rose coloured glasses - that we all remember the Good Old Days without remembering what it's like to deal with leaf springs, drum brakes and no power steering day in, day out. And that's not even starting on modern features like airbags or ABS. To complicate things, all of this takes place on an individual's personal sliding scale - some may view a nearly 20-yr old 80-series as ancient, whereas others are amazed at how modern their new 60-series is, compared to the old Willys GP they had before.

So, with that background, how old is too old? I'd be interested in hearing how people came to settle on their current 4WD, and why.

Let's try and keep it civil, for a couple of pages at least?

Thanks!
Matto

[D4D]

If I didn't drive the Prado daily I would probably drive a 4 x coil sprung early GU or 100. I was at a mates today who has bought a Toyota 4.2td ute and for some small money he has made a pretty capable touring machine.

[dno]

Nothings to old if your happy with it.

What about a TD 4.2 GU under $30.000 less than 200 thou on the clock.
 What more could you want, other than a GQ maybe. 

[DANBRI]

Exactly, I am lucky enough that we (Bri) and I both have modern 'daily driver' cars to drive. So to keep the old girl (2001 Patrol) going is really part of the fun. There has been a lot of money and time spent getting the vehicle where it is today, a capable tourer that I'll happily punt through the nastiest pooh known.

There are benefits to having the 'independent' 4wd. It's essentially a toy, that takes us on holidays. It can get damaged and repaired when finances allow, rather than the pressure of knowing if you damage it on the track you still need to get to work in it on Monday. It sleeps in full kit, awaiting the next adventure.

I would hate to drive a 4wd everyday to work, I enjoy driving far too much, they handle crap, they don't go and struggle to stop. Like D4D I would end up driving something more comfortable on-road that would limit me off-road, I don't like damaging things.

I reckon anything after about 1990, get a few mod cons, cruise control etc if you can.

[Prado BB]

So, with that background, how old is too old? I'd be interested in hearing how people came to settle on their current 4WD, and why.

I just recently sold my GQ Patrol and it would've turned 20 this year.  I also have a Prado that we bought used in 2009 and it was 6 years old when we bought it.  The reason I sold the Patrol is that it was starting to cost a bit to keep on the road and after repairing the head it was never the same.  As far as off road "capability" goes in unmodified from, the GQ out classed the Prado in every field other than dirt roads/corrugated, where the Prado felt more refined.  On the black top, around town and in shopping centre car parks, the Prado wins hands down.  Obviously the more modern you go, the more creature and safety features you get (as you already identified).  I too recall the days of no a/c and no power steer.  The MQ I had many years ago felt primitive compared to the GQ, but I wouldn't say the same when comparing the GQ and Prado (although the Prado is more comfortable).  Now once you begin to modify them, then everything changes again.  The Prado with its lift and off road tyres is fairly capable and would probably match the GQ if I fitted dual lockers.

If I were in the market today, I would consider a late model 100 series 4.2 Turbo diesel, simply for the size and power.  The Prado is under powered for me

Gee, I don't know, you really have started something here, haven't you?

[Jon]

As a toy, Discovery 2 TDI in a heart beat. Early to mid 00's

And a degree in electronic engineering...

[Gunna Do]

Matto, I can understand your thinking, when you say you can enjoy an older 4x4 more than a shineyer new one.  My Patrol has reached an age where it really isn't worth very much, resale value, but I can now appreciate it a bit more, and use it for what it was designed to do, and drive it to places it was designed to go.  All without the fear that I could damage 70 or 80 grands worth of 4by.

To put an age on what is too old is a hard one though, and I would be looking at kms travelled rather than age and perhaps think under 200,000kms as a good thing.

I am lucky also that my 4by is my hobby, and only gets used for holiday trips much the same as Dan's.

[Kit_e_kat9]

I am lucky also that my 4by is my hobby, and only gets used for holiday trips much the same as Dan's.

I want an "old" "hobby" from a swagger when I decide to hand in my 4 cylinder buzz box.   

Kit_e

[Matto]

Very interesting! It seems like, so far, and older dedicated (trip only) 4wd definitely seems like the favorite option.

Unfortunately the 4wd will be my daily driver, but on the other hand, my daily commute maxxes out at about 15mins. I'm more concerned with having AC for the wet season!

The other consideration is, as Danbri hinted at, things like cruise control. Cairns is a long way from a lot of places, necessitating a lot of highway kms before the fun. The Pathy is excellent on the highway, even with the big tyres.

PradoBB has hit my concern right on the head - older 4wds typically (not always I guess) need more money spent on them for general upkeep. Then there's the spectre of rust, and the lower fuel economy from a more basic engine design. Potentially a more reliable engine design I guess.

Which is counterpointed by Gunna and Dan's theory about not having to worry so much about an older car.

Decisions, decisions!

The current winner, in case it matters, is a 1hz dual-cabbed 80series, for $20k in unknown condition. No doubt I'll go back and forward on this a million times between now and when the time comes.

Thanks guys and girls - keep the ideas coming!
Matto

[TroyE]

If I had the money it would be a GUTD42t in a hart beat. but I don't so I've got the next best thing a GQ TB42, sure she old and thirsty but got bucket loads of grunt when I need/want it, and very very capable off road, she's got power steering, air con, cd, after market central locking and most of the fruit (no lockers I get into enough trouble with out them) check out the picture, 20 minutes and I was out (had to use my winch in anger again)


she' got bush pin stripes and carries 50kg of mud around all the time but she's comfitable and reliable and insured for $15500, not $ 40k plus and I own her out right so it comes down to what your prepared to live with what ever you drive it's going to be a compromise right it down and do it on papper so you can see your thoughts in black and white.

troy

PS: she's my daily driver and like you my daily commute is only about 10-15 minutes each way, I've thought about putting cruise on her but I can't be bothered besides I don't really like cruise anyway, it means you have to stay aleart the old way

[Bill]

When/if the time ever comes I will be buying my 5th Nissan or more specifically Navara #4.
It will be another D22 and this time it will have the 6cyl Renault Diesel you mentioned in your post...
Bill and Morag

[Dion]

I toyed with this too - when replacement for the Jeep came up, I looked far and wide.

Two things ended up swaying me:
- Had to be something my wife was comfortable driving around town and when travelling.
- Had to have side airbags and stability control.

This pretty much narrowed it down to a new or near-new Pajero/Prado sized vehicle.  Bigger was out, and many used vehicles fell by the wayside with rule #2.

If I could have something to be absolutely only used for trips and touring then different criteria would have been applied.  It really comes down to what your criteria are - you need to ID what the needs are and go from there.  Everyone is different.

[V8100]

I had the old dedicated fourby lifted locked etc etc and both wife and i had late model cars top run around in and loved it like that for about 5 years. In the end i would jump in the old girl after being in the newer cars and hate the driving experience so sold off old 4by and new ute and went for a new navara nowhere near as capable in the bush but will be one day plus you get to have the fun of kitting out the new truck.

eddy

[Bird]

Unless its a beater then dont go older than what you have now. I think Upgrade, not go backwards.

Many older cars are just money pits. With many people driving em till they are rooted then flog em, then its up to the buyer to tip thousands into it and still not being happy... What major problem have been patched up for the sale?

If your happy with older, then go for it.. Just be prepared to have to tip money into it...

But having had a Pathy in the family I think anythin around same vintage that doesnt drink more fuel than a space shuttle on take off would be an improvement.

it also depends on what you intend to do with it, since its a daily, I couldnt think of much worse than an old 40/60 series with leaf etc.

[noel_w]

I also have been up late at night thinking this through. I have a 95 GQ 2.8TD on 233000Km on the clock. I know I'm driving a ticking timebomb. On the other hand it gets along OK (0-100K in 2 centuries), it has a 2" lift, new clutch & steering pump, decent enough stereo to drown out the constant drone, body is decent enough & I sort of like the GQ as it definately has character. It tows the trackie along well enough to stay on the speed limit and as of last trip away returned 12.5 L/100K towing the CT. SWMBO has a 2010 Forester so we use that around town as the family hack and I only use the GQ to go to work & back & towing. The GQ will need money poured in soon as there are a few things ageing on it (same as me) and I will need to make that decision soon but finances will probably dictate I keep it for a while unless lotto comes good. Good thing is though parts are reasonably cheap for it. If it gets a few scatches or dents on it who cares where as on a new one I would freak if it gets a scratch and so therefore I would keep it locked in the garage defeating the purpose of having a fourby.
But what would I get if I had the money? Probably a 4.2TD cruiser or GU if I could find a low K one at the right price. Probably a GU as I have always been a datto man. (still looking for a cheap datto 1600 to restore) The two Tojo's I have had have been disasters & moneypits which has left a sour taste but have had good runs out of the four datto's.

[Jason B]

I am have been considering the same issues also. I have decided to go the old skool route. I have done deal with a mate for his 80 series DX Cruiser. It has 200k on the clock, 2in lift, Bullbar, Warn Hi Mount winch, Snorkel, Towbar, Stratos seats, cargo barrier, fatties with Cooper STT's and window tint. Its a 1997 model and has never towed anything. This is costing me $15k. The only real mod's I plan to do to it when I get it are add an after market Turbo kit so it tows the KK a bit better and add some Nav gear. All up cost should be this side of 20k. This will be our dedicated holiday truck.

There are some good ones about, I was going to look at this one this week, but will stick to the one I know as I have known the truck I am buying all of its life.

Link to 80 with 100kms. Probably get it for 15k

http://www.carpoint.com.au/all-cars/private/details.aspx?Cr=11&R=11002768&keywords=&trecs=267&__sid=1300E053E510&__Ns=pCar_RankSort_Int32|1||pCar_Price_Decimal|1||pCar_Make_String|0||pCar_Model_String|0&__Qpb=1&__Nne=15&__No=45&seot=1&__N=834%201216%201246%201247%201252%201282%204294962570%204294962861%20393%20412&silo=1011


Regards


Jas

[WilSurf]

A hard decision to make.
We are in the same situation.
The Surf is 17 years old with 270k. What has been said by others is true, you want a reliable car in the bush.
A newer car doesn't have to be better, you know the car you have.
Good luck.

[98Pudge]

I was in this same position.......
Then i got over it and bought a '08 Pajero, but you already know about that.....

[meimarocu]

Matto,
As i already have children all i can say is "go big".
Min 80 series but pref 100 series.
I have a fiarly good GQ TD42 turbo  and 3 lads(5-9-13) and a few times
extra room would have been good.
But you will always manage with what you have.

Good luck on the hunt.

Cheers Ian.

[Matto]

Then i got over it and bought a '08 Pajero, but you already know about that.....

We still need to get some photos of the new one to go in your sig! I'm thinking somewhere with a beach... 

As i already have children all i can say is "go big".

Thanks Ian - that's what I'm coming around to myself actually. I think I've pretty much convinced myself for the 100-series/GU as a minimum - I want airbags and the other modern safety features. We usually end up doing a lot of highway kms, so these little things make sense to me.

We'll see - it's a long way off yet!

Thanks!
Matto

[GLC]

Think i have a 75 series Troopy, dont go under the hood much as she doesnt break down, close on 1500 k with the two tanks via keeping her humming rather than racing and just under 400000 k on the clock.  I couldnt be happier, nice enough to drive daily, enough room to throw a swag and a lot of gear into, and at the same time strong enough to hit a brick wall and bounce over (well almost, bent the gaurd thinking I could climb a tree in her.  BUT she is reliable and hardly ever needs to be worked on as the service seems to be enough.
 For me a lady like her is going to win over a little baby 4b every day of the week, and the new stuff just looks like it is going to fall in a heap the moment it gets a little water on it.

[cdustbehindme]

i have a 2000 diesel prado and with all its 300,000 kms love it, I keep getting scratches and it doesnt matter, still has power steering and mirrors but doesnt have all the other extras that can go wrong.... I service and do all the work myself which makes things cheaper, but cant do on a newbie cause of the warranty.  Plenty of aftermarket stuff but not too much choice which makes things easy!   If i had the chance Id grab a 120 series prado diesel just before they went to the d4d... theres some real nice ones about and Im guessing the price will drop a bit now that the new one is out....  plenty of mod cons and comfort but still retains that touring heart.....   Theres always a good buy from a one owner or similar if you have time to wait......  patience