The danger of snatching

[Prado BB]

looks good burnsy, and agree with you comments for improvement.

[BigJules]

I still don't get why people use these, why not just remove the hitch, slide the strap up into the receiver and put the pin through it (or is this too considered unsafe)?  No shackle or other hunk of metal to possibly fail and you don't need to carry a potential missle around in the bacl of your car.

Because they just don't know the dangers. Many people will believe that the towball is acceptable, they towed the van to Yamba with it after all. I've written before about how I watched the cops do this recovering people who'd slid off the road to Perisher. They just don't know better.

So, rather than being outraged, we all need to pass the word around.

[Burnsy]

Here is another using webbing.  I think when doing it with rope we just threw a fishermans knot around the strap and had one each end.  Thinking more about it however by far and away the safest measn of doing it would be to use a length of rope that went the full length of the snatch with alpine butterfly knots every metre that the snatch passes through, make the rope about 1.5 metres longer than the strap at each end and tie it off to an unused recovery point at each end (no shackles as you have to tie a loop for a shackle anyway so just learn to tie a bowline).  If you did this it would not matter where the strap or tow point broke it could not travel further than about 1.5 metres before it would be stopped by the rope.  It may be over the top but you are always trusting one other persons recovery point as well as your own and what price is your and your families safety?

I have some bluewater rope lying about in the shed, i might make up one of these for my new strap and post a picture.

[Jason B]

So, rather than being outraged, we all need to pass the word around.

 

Very true mate. The first thing I do if playing in the 4wd is remove the towbar tongue (If not towing of course) as it screws with departure angles and if its not there during a recovery then no one is tempted to use it in hast. There should be no short cuts to a vehicle recovery.

Regards

Jas

[CRW]

And if you are still unsure there is a good report in the latest Issue 169 of 4WD Action about winching and snatching in all different circumstances, And not a tow ball in sight

[Prado BB]

Here is another using webbing.  I think when doing it with rope we just threw a fishermans knot around the strap and had one each end.  Thinking more about it however by far and away the safest measn of doing it would be to use a length of rope that went the full length of the snatch with alpine butterfly knots every metre that the snatch passes through, make the rope about 1.5 metres longer than the strap at each end and tie it off to an unused recovery point at each end (no shackles as you have to tie a loop for a shackle anyway so just learn to tie a bowline).  If you did this it would not matter where the strap or tow point broke it could not travel further than about 1.5 metres before it would be stopped by the rope.  It may be over the top but you are always trusting one other persons recovery point as well as your own and what price is your and your families safety?

I have some bluewater rope lying about in the shed, i might make up one of these for my new strap and post a picture.

that's close to what I was suggesting, but as someone said, you would need to do it at both ends.

[whitey]

As a young fella i was in a mishap in my HG Holden coming back from Lakes Entrance via Falls creek where the roads guys had just resurfaced the then dirt road, 10" parnelly jones on the back wheels 8" whatevers on the front, we came up to a wide smooth corner and were just saying how the road works snuck up on us and how smooth it was when whoooaaa no steering, we weren't travelling fast but i lost all control and went over the edge arse up in the air hanging on by the muffler and a gas bottle size rock   that happened to be pushed over the edge just stopping the driver side front wheel.....  10 mins later a cockie, must have easily been in his 80's in a short wheelbase came along an said hop in young fella and i'll pull you out.. he hooked me up to my tow ball of all things and before i could turn around to look backwards he fanged his barbed wired, straw filled dog carrier and literally ripped me up through the side of the road edge. My tow bar was bent nearly 70 degrees from straight and concertinaed my muffler to half it's length, he just unhitched said take it easy and drove off.... we to this day cannot for the life of us understand how it didnt snap off maybe.... because he took up the slack and used a chain or it was bloody good steel ball... will uncover some photos and show pic's if we can copy and post.    

[kranky al]

I always thought those recovery points on the ARB bars were for winching only ?

yogi

this really pisses me off - arb removed my recovery points when they fitted the bar - i asked them why and they said that the bar points were fine to snatch off.

[darren]

[austastar]

Hi
  I queried the ARB bar for snatching and was told it was re-enforced to take shackles using a snatch strap.

cheers

[Burnsy]

Hi
  I queried the ARB bar for snatching and was told it was re-enforced to take shackles using a snatch strap.

cheers

Read plenty of reports saying for winching only   Personally I would not snatch someone out who was stuck if they wanted to attach to their ARB bar, or any other bar for that matter.  I think rated hooks on the front are still the best bet, no need for shackels at all.  I don't get all these new bright red recovery points that cost $100 and still require that you use a shackle, they should be drilled to take a recovery hook.

[Jason B]

I agree with burnsy 100%

Shackles should be avoided for snatch recoveries. Rated hooks are the go, much less chance of flying metal, even with dampers etc, if they are not on there in the first place it is much safer. I use shackles when needed for winch recoveries, just try to avoid them for snatches.

Regards

Jas

[D4D]

ARB bar points like mine are for winching only, they're not load tested and not designed for snatching. I painted mine red so if somebody else was setting up for a recovery they wouldn't get confused with the factory tie down points. I would prefer a hook like my GQ as the less metal in a recovery the better.



This is what happens when you snatch from them

[Burnsy]

D4D, what do you snatch from on that front end?  Factory tiedown points with a load sharing strap?  This is where it gets confusing, not being familiar with the Prado bar and points I would have attached to your red points if I was snatching you out and not told otherwise.  I was only aware of the old ARB type winch points and have not seen these before and would have assumed they were rated aftermarket points and attched to them :'(.  Being red makes it even more likely that I would have gone down this route.

[D4D]

D4D, what do you snatch from on that front end?

I don't snatch, I winch

[Burnsy]

I don't snatch, I winch

Fair enough but you can see the point about it being confusing   I

f snatching a Prado, where are the recommended rated points?

[D4D]

Fair enough but you can see the point about it being confusing  

Absolutely

If snatching a Prado, where are the recommended rated points?

Some have fitted the Outback Ideas mounts however they are not rated. AJ has fabbed up some plates where he has mounted hooks. His is probably the best I have seen. I'll see if I can find his pics.

Edit - found a pic of his setup, this is what I will do one day.

[Squalo]

The less metal in a recovery, the better, is true enough, but the only reasons a shackle could become a projectile in a snatch recovery are:

- shackle not rated for the job (I wouldn't use less than a 4.7T)
- shackle has been compromised (age, corrosion, mis-use)
- shackle attached to an inappropriate point on the vehicle
- shackle used to join snatch straps

All of which are easy to stay on top of.

This is mine, two 16mm plates, each with 4.7T bow shackles and hooks. The hooks are going to come off because there is more likelyhood that a hook will fail than a shackle failing. At the rear is a 50x50mm hitch receiver with shackle point. There is nothing stronger available off the shelf than this and I can't think of any reason at all why you would fit a lesser set-up - people spout about cost, but cost is irrelevant when lives are at stake. Mine ended up at about $350 all-up, plus straps etc. but I know that nothing is going to depart my car and go through someone elses window, whether I'm pulling or being pulled.

[GGV8Cruza]

This is mine, two 16mm plates, each with 4.7T bow shackles and hooks.

Just wondering where you got the plates from, custom would be my guess, need to get some for the patrol

GG

[Bird]

have a read of this
http://www.whyalla4wd.org.au/Shackles.html

Determine Speed of Shackle if Snatch Strap Breaks.

If all the Elastic Energy of the Snatch Strap is transferred to Kinetic Energy in the Shackle then the peak Speed of the Shackle as the Snatch Strap returns to it's 9.0m length can be determined. (Assuming no losses due to friction)
From Energy Conservation,

Elastic Energy in Snatch Strap = Kinetic Energy of Shackle
PEStrap = KEShackle
1/2 k x2 = 1/2 m v2
where k = spring constant
x = distance stretched (meters)
m = mass of shackle (kg)
v = velocity of shackle (m/s)
1/2 (20750N/m) (0.579m)2 = 1/2 (0.68kg) v2
v = 101m/s


or Peak Speed of Shackle   v = 364 km/h


Snatch recoveries can be done safely and have been for decades just as they have been done unsafely for decades same as crossing the road.
I'd guess there would be 1000's of snatch recoveries a year around the place with a fatality every few years. 1 death is too many - agree, but there are worse averages out there and you will never get rid of the moron element in society '... shes right mate' - we have all seen it out there. In this case the OP posted about, it was a tragic situation with an innocent passenger.

People need to remember in most recoveries, you dont need to be doing 180 kph when the strap reaches its maximum length which is where most issues I have seen come in. If you do need to do this, then you should be winching, not snatching.

It may look "awesome" on the video as ya mates bullbar is ripped off smashing into the car infront and he has whiplash, but it is asking for problems.

[Burnsy]

364km/h, hooley dooley, that is scary, and even more scary when you search the net and see how many accidents have happened bath fatal and non-fatal when snatching.

I think next time someone asks for me to snatch them out I will back my car up, put it in low, hand over the keys and go for a walk with my family

[hookedon4wding]

My Prado has the same factory point as D4D's (see inner loop in pic below). I have bought an equaliser strap to attach to this point on either side of the vehicle with rated shackles. These factory points seem to be a lot heavier duty than just tie downs. With the added force reduction of the equaliser strap, I'm assuming they are ok?



On the rear, I use one of these.



What are the thoughts on this setup? Particularly the front end.

Cheers, Sam.

[Jason B]

I think next time someone asks for me to snatch them out I will back my car up, put it in low, hand over the keys and go for a walk with my family

Thats the other Option mate, back up to them hook up a tow chain and slowly and carefully pull them out. I have done it this way many times and whilst it is not ideal I have used winch extention straps for this purpose without any problems. There is no where near the amount of kenetic energy when using an extention strap. I have snapped a couple (very old and damaged, but was all we had - not my 4wd). When they broke they only recoiled about a metre and at no stage did they have the energy in them to get any where near the tow vehicle to be dangerous or cause damage.

Slow and steady is the key.


Regards

Jas

[Burnsy]

What are the thoughts on this setup? Particularly the front end.

I don't see the use of the reciever points if your strap will fit into the reciever.  As for the front point, I would check what others experiences have been on somewhere like Prado point.

On my 80 series I have been using the factory tiedown points (both with an equaliser strap) but intend to change this, not because of the point itself but the way in which it is attached to the chassis.  The factory captive nuts are mild steel and not rated and have been known to have rated tensile bolts rip out of them.  The nuts should be knocked off with a cold chisel before a load spreading plate drilled to the appropriate hole spacing is slid into the chassis and rated nuts used on top of this.  I would assume the Prado nuts would be the same.  This upgrade using rated hooks is on my to do list, am just trying to source two of the Toyota hooks that were available with the correct spacing holes in them.

[hookedon4wding]

I don't see the use of the reciever points if your strap will fit into the reciever.  As for the front point, I would check what others experiences have been on somewhere like Prado point.

Thanks for that. I will see if the snatch strap fits in the receiver and if so, ditch the recovery point.

I agree that slow and steady is the key. If you have to use a lot of speed and thus force, you need to do more digging IMHO!