Author Topic: Buying shocks - feedback on the bilsteins  (Read 10249 times)

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Offline Bird

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Re: Buying shocks - feedback on the bilsteins
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2012, 11:52:18 AM »
Yeah, re warranty, I have got it, but not locally, and not worth sending 1 shock back
I wasn't too worried about the warranty, given 1 shock cost less than $100 I was prepared to risk it, esp given the bilstein reputation :D
Lovells are being considered, only need a front pair.  The rear billies are fine, and I'll have one front as a spare (bit overkill for a spare ;D).  Interesting warranty on lovells - can't help but think the warranty might have conditions like coopers tyre warranty, such is the subjectiveness surrounding how shocks are treated??? 

 :cheers:
nutto
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Offline Nutto

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Re: Buying shocks - feedback on the bilsteins
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2012, 01:21:47 PM »
Look on the forum here in the Showroom section for Zordo .
Then search forum for his name, see all the + comments on him.
Then give John a call.

Yep, that's the plan lost

Offline GeeTee

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Re: Buying shocks - save some coin.
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2012, 08:48:02 PM »
Some feedback on the billies:
 The Billie is the same length as the std shock, so logic would say they maybe the shock needs to be a bit longer.  The thing is, with these IFS front ends, you can't just bang in a long travel shock in , as this then puts too much angle on the CV's....

So, there you go,  the much accalimed bilstein has failed,  and the tracks were not that bad -
 :cheers:
Nutto

May I tactfully say that the Billy didn't fail - your obviously poor understanding of suspension design/modification, and hence unsuitable installation - destroyed it




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Offline Nutto

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Re: Buying shocks - save some coin.
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2012, 10:09:11 PM »
May I tactfully say that the Billy didn't fail - your obviously poor understanding of suspension design/modification, and hence unsuitable installation - destroyed it

Please do enlighten me.

What I had done was replace front shocks with  shocks of equal length and a springs specialist (not a 4wd shop) adjusted the front torsion bars up 30mm to better match the height in the rear as a result of an extra Leaf added.   This is a very common modification to this type of vehicle, and I dont profess to being a  suspension expert however, poor understanding? I guess the old bloke whos been doing this sort of work for years has little idea then? My observations are just based on logic, so if u say the failure is my fault not the shock, back it up. Why dis only one fail?
I didnt just do this modification for pose value, as my footer pic shows, on the road 4mnths carries a bit of gear and heavy camper...does the set up look fit for purpose?

Offline dazzler

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Buying shocks - feedback on the bilsteins
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2012, 10:26:17 PM »
May I tactfully say that the Billy didn't fail - your obviously poor understanding of suspension design/modification, and hence unsuitable installation - destroyed it

Someone failed tact 101 :)
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Offline becboo

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Buying shocks - feedback on the bilsteins
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2012, 11:05:25 PM »
We own a 2002 100 series wagon. We put bilstein platinum under her and she went from feeling like a boat to a steady constant surface!  We drive the PDR regularly so we drive a long distance on a bad road consistently ( yes after all you tourists it's crap!!!)  lol

Definitely worth the money IMO

Cheers
Becboo
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Offline fuji

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Re: Buying shocks - feedback on the bilsteins
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2012, 02:19:28 AM »
I just got a quote for the Workmate, Koni 90s with OME HD leaf springs, $3450. As opposed to $2000 for EFS with HD springs. Expensive!!! But the Koni are rebuildable.
Wayne
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Re: Buying shocks - feedback on the bilsteins
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2012, 10:59:58 AM »
Someone failed tact 101 :)

Someone failed tact 101 :)

yeah I knew I might get onto trouble! But I'm not sledging Nutto, just pointing out that from what Nutto has said it is more than likely NOT the damper's fault that it has failed (as he has implied).

Nutto, as you kind-of already know IFS torsion bar fronts have limited scope for ride height lift but I am surpised you have had dramas with a measured 30mm of lift.

When modifying suspension, we must ensure both bumpstops are doing the bumpstoppering (that is, limiting the suspension stroke top and bottom) rather than the damper although with standard spec dampers you can usually get away with ride height increases as long as the suspension architecture remains standard. This must be checked at installation to ensure 'one size fits all' dampers are working within the correct stroke/range.

But as you said, the damper was being stressed before you bumpstops came into play. Every sudden change in road surface (such as apothole) allows the torsion bar (or spring) to almost instantly ram the suspenion to full droop. It's either the bumpstop or damper that limits/stops this motion... and dampers aren't designed for it. Dampers can often be killed in minutes suffering these conditions.

As for just one dying - often the left-hand front shock dies before the Right. With road camber etc you will more than likely find the car will be leaning a little to the left; this may only be 10-15mm but this is sometimes enough to 'protect' the right-side damper. There are also more potholes etc due to cracked road edges on the left side of the road. Also, most utes carry the fuel tank and battery on the LHS and even with suspension 'jacking' to get the vehicle level on flat ground, there is more weight, therefore more movement, on the left.

So why yours died.. dunno!  ???

HTH.. and what did you do to fix? Is there slightly longer damper you can install, without causing problems the 'other' way (by limiting 'bump' or compression travel)?

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Offline Bird

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Re: Buying shocks - feedback on the bilsteins
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2012, 06:44:33 PM »
I just got a quote for the Workmate, Koni 90s with OME HD leaf springs, $3450. As opposed to $2000 for EFS with HD springs. Expensive!!! But the Koni are rebuildable.
Wayne
PM me, i can put you onto a few places in AU that are cheap.

and for the patrol they are 800+ cheaper importing from the UK!
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Offline dazzler

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Re: Buying shocks - feedback on the bilsteins
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2012, 11:41:41 AM »

and for the patrol they are 800+ cheaper importing from the UK!

Wow, cheaper from the UK.  Our Grp 4 escort rally stuff freight killed us from the UK  :'(
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Re: Buying shocks - feedback on the bilsteins
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2012, 11:46:04 AM »
Our Grp 4 escort rally stuff freight killed us from the UK  :'(

Post up some picks on here somewhere, I have an escort fettish, have had 11 of the things icluding a Group C race car.

Offline Nutto

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Re: Buying shocks - feedback on the bilsteins
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2012, 02:53:04 PM »
yeah I knew I might get onto trouble! But I'm not sledging Nutto, just pointing out that from what Nutto has said it is more than likely NOT the damper's fault that it has failed (as he has implied).

Nutto, as you kind-of already know IFS torsion bar fronts have limited scope for ride height lift but I am surpised you have had dramas with a measured 30mm of lift.

When modifying suspension, we must ensure both bumpstops are doing the bumpstoppering (that is, limiting the suspension stroke top and bottom) rather than the damper although with standard spec dampers you can usually get away with ride height increases as long as the suspension architecture remains standard. This must be checked at installation to ensure 'one size fits all' dampers are working within the correct stroke/range.

But as you said, the damper was being stressed before you bumpstops came into play. Every sudden change in road surface (such as apothole) allows the torsion bar (or spring) to almost instantly ram the suspenion to full droop. It's either the bumpstop or damper that limits/stops this motion... and dampers aren't designed for it. Dampers can often be killed in minutes suffering these conditions.

As for just one dying - often the left-hand front shock dies before the Right. With road camber etc you will more than likely find the car will be leaning a little to the left; this may only be 10-15mm but this is sometimes enough to 'protect' the right-side damper. There are also more potholes etc due to cracked road edges on the left side of the road. Also, most utes carry the fuel tank and battery on the LHS and even with suspension 'jacking' to get the vehicle level on flat ground, there is more weight, therefore more movement, on the left.

So why yours died.. dunno!  ???

HTH.. and what did you do to fix? Is there slightly longer damper you can install, without causing problems the 'other' way (by limiting 'bump' or compression travel)?

Geetee
What you say is correct, and covers what factors i was explaining that likley lead to the failure, however, will clarify & summarise a few things:
- As mentioned eariler, the shock that failed was the right hand (drivers) side, not left hand, so although it makes sense that the left cops a bit more due to camber, edges etc, it didn't ring true in this case.. I guess it must have been a few bad 'hits' on the RHS ???
- As the factory shock is the same length as the bilstein, it also has the same issue of taking the 'hit' before the bump stop can save it.  It appears this situation becomes an issue from the showroom floor ONLY when torsion bar is wound up, due to reduced downward travel, however, it is poor form that it sold like this ??? 
- I could look for a shock with a length so as to let the bump stop do it's job, however, I would have the situation where I would hit the bump stop when It could be avoided by the next point...
-  I feel a better solution may be to ease the torsion bars down 15mm so that I can effectively gain back some downward suspension travel.  This would result in the shock operating more toward the 'centre' and less likely to top out.  I would still also get a slightly longer shock that lets the bump stop hit first, it's just that when sitting a tad lower in the front, i'm also less likey to hit the btm bumpstop. Also better for CV's - reduces horiz angle
- IF i'm worried about loosing frontbody height, I can legally step up from 245/70/16 tyre to 255/70/16 tyre (yes I can, do the maths.... >:D) to get some back (7mm to be exact, half the 14mm increase in rolling OD))
- Yes i said the billie failed, however, any shock would in this situation, and as I have put the originals back in until I rectify the geometry, (which, in hindsight appears not right from the factory anyway) I expect that they may suffer the same fate
- I still think it was a harsh call on the poor understanding, as I thought I pretty well covered what you said!! ;D

When I get a chance to change them over, I'll get some pics with the wheel off and hub hangin, to see exactly what the gap is to the bump stop, and then source a shock with length to match.  I'll then get the local truck wheel aligner here to adjust the bars down 15mm and reset the camber.

 :cheers:
nutto