Cattle in the high country - 'dog whistleing' only fools dogs...

[Barry G]

Just a few points from personal experience.
It is not rich land barons that run their stock there.
It is not free,they pay the govt for the priveledge.
A lot of the argument was originally that the govt had contracts for the next number of years.These contracts got cancelled with very little notice,leaving several with little option than to cull significant numbers of their herds.
Are people aware that one of the reasons given for no longer allowing grazing was because of proposed commercial developement of the area?
I was very involved when this was originaly decided but my memory is shot and I can't recall many of the details.As to research that has been done regarding reducing fire hazards I believe that there was equal ammounts of peer tested studies on both sides of that debate and nothing conclusive was able to be decided.
As for hard hooved animals causing major damage the argument was put forward that there are twice the number of goats and horses( brumbies) in the area than there are cows.This was supported by NPWS and NPWS even suggested the eradication of these species before restricting or banning grazing.
I love that area of our country and have spent much time there. I have no real opinion on whether grazing should be allowed or not but ,I do have definate views on the area being locked down or commercial interest allowed to access areas (paid tours etc) that the general public cannot.

Hello stockhorse,
To clarify, I didn't say that it was the land barons who run cattle up there and yes they do pay a licence fee. However, the reason they do it is to increase production over and above what they could do on there own properties.  All other farmers have to make do with their own productive capacity, or lease grazing land at commercial rates.
I know what you mean about memory - happy to accept your recollections as genuine.
I would be happy to be directed to any peer reviewed material which comes to a different view with regard to effects of cattle grazing with respect to reducing fire risk.
Yes, previous governments had sold long term licences to try and 'lock in' grazing rights and stop future governments from ending the practice.
Don't disagree with you about the problems of pigs etc.  However, can't see why it should be made worse by reintroducing cattle.
Totally agree that commercial tour operators shouldn't be able to have preferential access to areas.  As to areas being locked down, that is always a risk if too many ignore track closures / go off-track / leave rubbish, etc.

[jimsiron]

Back in the early 70's I worked on a property that bordered state forest in Far Eastern vic out of Buchan. We had cattle only on freehold land and access to the forest also. Our biggest pest was blackberrys and rabbits followed by native invasive species with no help from govt departments to control any. The only thing that controlled the imported pests at the time were the cattle, without them we would not have kept the blackberry brier growths to a localized area so we could easily access them for spray control and the rabbits that also used these for shelter/warren building were also localized so making it easier for control. We also sold timber under government royalty situations from this property, from country that was full of brumbys,I can still remember the brumby traps run by the local policeman. I doubt there are any signs or very few now of these activities. These are all pests that we introduced many years ago and only now are coming to grips with,but the cattle should prevail as they can help with control and are also a  controlled number themselves,not out of hand like the biggest pest.
The biggest pest is now ourselves, we are ALL to blame for what has happened, what we now do by visiting with uncontrolled relentlesness in the vision of tourism/sightseeing is creating more than a few hundred cattle have over the years.
Even though we love this country, and believe me I do, we must control our own parade of tourism to some of the areas.

Sorry for the rant but thats what a bottle of chardonnay does, I support both sides!!
regards
jimsiron

[D4D]

Sorry for the rant but thats what a bottle of chardonnay does

As I was reading your post I was thinking you were a tough man of the land, until I read that last line. I'm now thinking Brokeback mountain

[jimsiron]

As I was reading your post I was thinking you were a tough man of the land, until I read that last line. I'm now thinking Brokeback mountain

The broke part is correct as I have a daughters wedding to pay for in a fortnights time!!!

[sschmez]

No I don't have any documentary evidence from 35 years ago, however I was there at the time and put my recollections on the forum for the benefit of others - all can take it or leave it as they choose.

I called BS and it remains BS until you show otherwise.

I fail to see how two threads of your BS are a benefit to others but like you say, we can take it or leave it

thanx anyway
Stevo

[Barry G]

And what about the balance of the post you quote?

... here is the page of peer reviewed posts to scientific articles of the impact of cattle grazing, previously posted on page 1 of this thread.  http://www.cowpaddock.com/references.html
Happy to see anything similar for scientific published articles to the contrary.

No I don't have any documentary evidence from 35 years ago, however I was there at the time and put my recollections on the forum for the benefit of others - all can take it or leave it as they choose.

You obviously see humans as the source of water pollution at Mac Springs, would be happy to see your evidence for that?

So, you have no evidence that humans are the cause of water pollution at Mac Springs and offer nothing in regard to scientifically accepted evidence about cattle reducing fire risks in the high country.  Any wonder you seem like a dog whistler.

[speewa158]

I think somebody has ingested to many nematodes in the past

[D4D]

I think somebody has ingested to many nematodes in the past

 

[Kit_e_kat9]

Some of the places I go have cowpats ... I like em personally ... Some of the places I go have people ... I don't like most of em personally (call me picky if you like) ... Some of the places I go are where people have gone before me ... I can tell as they leave both their own "cowpats" and most of their rubbish.  

I think we should address the People Problems before we start on the poor old cows

... as for the High Country ... Looks like cows come with 4WD too ... at least they only leave cowpats behind ...  

Kit_e

[sschmez]

And what about the balance of the post you quote?

Irrelevant to your original post and to what I called you on ...

Seems a vain attempt to drag me down to your level and then beat me with experience
(still trying to find a fantastic little .gif i've seen to illustrate this perfectly)

Not the first or, unfortunately not the last keyboard warrior I'll meet in internetland

[Black Diamond]

As I was reading your post I was thinking you were a tough man of the land, until I read that last line. I'm now thinking Brokeback mountain

[jimsiron]

The broke part is correct as I have a daughters wedding to pay for in a fortnights time!!!
[/quote
Forgot to add, run out of Vitamin B and couldnt be fagged in going to get a slab tonight so drank the first cold bottle in the fridge!!

[GU Rich]

Spotted at Whiskey Creek hut 5/3/2011


15m from the Rubicon River...

[alnjan]

And what about the balance of the post you quote?

... here is the page of peer reviewed posts to scientific articles of the impact of cattle grazing, previously posted on page 1 of this thread.  http://www.cowpaddock.com/references.html
Happy to see anything similar for scientific published articles to the contrary.

No I don't have any documentary evidence from 35 years ago, however I was there at the time and put my recollections on the forum for the benefit of others - all can take it or leave it as they choose.

You obviously see humans as the source of water pollution at Mac Springs, would be happy to see your evidence for that?

So, you have no evidence that humans are the cause of water pollution at Mac Springs and offer nothing in regard to scientifically accepted evidence about cattle reducing fire risks in the high country.  Any wonder you seem like a dog whistler.

Barry,

I still can not find any link with bovine Nematodes getting into human brains and Mac Springs.  You link, which doesn't really supply much info, is tittles of studies dealing mainly with land, soil and water degradation caused allegedly by only cattle, no other animal. 

There is nothing mentioned about the increase in black berry growth in the High Country since the cattle have been removed.  after all is was part of the deal of cattle being allowed in the High Country, that the Cattle man control the black berries.  Now no cattle no black berry control.  It seems to be a lose/lose situation at present, unless you are a one eyed greenie and see it somehow different

[Barry G]

Barry,

I still can not find any link with bovine Nematodes getting into human brains and Mac Springs.  You link, which doesn't really supply much info, is tittles of studies dealing mainly with land, soil and water degradation caused allegedly by only cattle, no other animal. 

There is nothing mentioned about the increase in black berry growth in the High Country since the cattle have been removed.  after all is was part of the deal of cattle being allowed in the High Country, that the Cattle man control the black berries.  Now no cattle no black berry control.  It seems to be a lose/lose situation at present, unless you are a one eyed greenie and see it somehow different

alnjan

I was asked where was the 'heaps of evidence' about cattle damage in the high country, so I posted the link to the bibliography of articles on same.

What 'deal' was blackberry control part of?  The only 'deal' I am aware of is the payment of licence fees in return for running the cattle in the high country.

Can't imagine cattle preferring blackberries to grass, but happy to be shown that I'm wrong.

Not aware that blackberries have been a problem on the Bogong High Plains that I am aware of, and they didn't appear to be rampant in the lower areas around Marathon Road, or at Grant, when I was in those areas over the New Year.

[Barry G]

Spotted at Whiskey Creek hut 5/3/2011


15m from the Rubicon River...

I recognise the 'giant kelpie dog from outer space' in the background. 

[speewa158]

Barry at Loyds Knob along the creek bank Blackberries were as rampent as could be . you may have seen them as you went to collect drinking water . I make a point chipping any small plants that are just getting started in a attempt to slow the spread .when ever I am out & about .

[alnjan]

http://sale.yourguide.com.au/news/local/news/environment/cattle-back-grazing-in-the-high-country/2047444.aspx

Cattle back grazing in the High Country
14 Jan, 2011 09:36 AM

IN a coup for mountain cattlemen, the State Government has allowed cattle to re-enter pockets of Victoria's Alpine National Parks, after being locked out of the High Country for more than five years.
Announced on Wednesday, the re-introduction of cattle is part of the State Government's trial of strategic grazing in a bid to reduce fuel loads in the High Country.

The news was welcomed by the Mountain Cattlemens Association of Victoria, with president and Licola resident Mark Coleman calling the move a victory for common sense.

"This is a government decision based on common sense and will seek solutions to long term good management of our public land,'' Mr Coleman said.

"In 2005, the Labor Government kicked us out of the Parks for short term political gain.

"This new government is to be congratulated for having the courage to revisit that very bad decision and to accept in principle what the MCAV had been saying about grazing and fuel reduction for more than 50 years.

"Members of the MCAV stand ready to assist this exciting project and to pass on their knowledge as to how the High Country should be managed and cared for.''

The trial, commissioned by the Department of Sustainability and Environment, has returned 400 cattle to the High Country this week into to six sites over 25,600 hectares, or 3.9 per cent of the Alpine National Park, for the remainder of the 2010-2011 grazing season, which runs until April 30.

According to Environment and Climate Change Minister Ryan Smith, the trial, undertaken by Professor Mark Adams of the Bushfire Co-operative Research Centre, was hoped to provide evidence on the efficiency of strategic cattle grazing for fuel and fire management purposes.

"The Coalition Government is committed to making transparent and informed decisions on bushfire management in Victoria's High Country based on credible scientific evidence,'' Mr Smith said.

"Current information on the effect of cattle grazing for bushfire mitigation is limited.

Also,

http://www.mcav.com.au/Environmental%20Benefits%20of%20High%20Country%20Grazing.pdf

The other side of the fence, so to speak


But still nothing about Nematodes affecting human brains at Mac Springs??

[alnjan]

What I can find (or NOT find) on the Nematodes at Mac Springs

http://forums.ski.com.au/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1238245&page=0

Even the hikers are unsure and call it an Urban Myth.



Oh well Barry you made the call in the Hut thread, can you provide anything to substaniate your claim

The one problem there is that water must be boiled because of cattle nematodes in the water.  (Nematodes end up in your BRAIN they are both invisible and dangerous. Don't let kids drink from the supply if you are there.)
Cattlemen have a romantic historic image, but cattle have caused significant environmental damage.

[Barry G]

Barry at Loyds Knob along the creek bank Blackberries were as rampent as could be . you may have seen them as you went to collect drinking water . I make a point chipping any small plants that are just getting started in a attempt to slow the spread .when ever I am out & about .

Speewa, there have been blackberries along water courses ever since Von Mueller went through the area.  However, they are clearly not everywhere across the hills and over the tracks.   
The argument that I responded to implied that without grazing blackberries would take over.  Clearly this is not the case in the areas we drove through. 

Arguably grazing of blackberries, assuming that cattle do, could potentially spread infestations, if any survived the beasts guts and were passed in dung - similar to spread of pest plants by birds.

Chip away all you like, and good on you for doing so, but you will make no difference at the landscape level.

[Barry G]

What I can find (or NOT find) on the Nematodes at Mac Springs

http://forums.ski.com.au/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1238245&page=0

Even the hikers are unsure and call it an Urban Myth.



Oh well Barry you made the call in the Hut thread, can you provide anything to substaniate your claim

The one problem there is that water must be boiled because of cattle nematodes in the water.  (Nematodes end up in your BRAIN they are both invisible and dangerous. Don't let kids drink from the supply if you are there.)
Cattlemen have a romantic historic image, but cattle have caused significant environmental damage.

alnjan,

I have already indicated that I do not have any documentation from 40 years ago:

... No I don't have any documentary evidence from 35 years ago, however I was there at the time and put my recollections on the forum for the benefit of others - all can take it or leave it as they choose.   ...

I notice that, while sschmez has not provided any evidence for his definitive statement that poor water at Mac Springs is caused by poor human hygiene, you do not attack him for that.

[D4D]

15m from the Rubicon River...

That's some big Nematodes!

[sschmez]

I notice that, while sschmez has not provided any evidence for his definitive statement that poor water at Mac Springs is caused by poor human hygiene, you do not attack him for that.

I, unlike yourself haven't made any outrageous claims

[alnjan]

alnjan,

I have already indicated that I do not have any documentation from 40 years ago:

... No I don't have any documentary evidence from 35 years ago, however I was there at the time and put my recollections on the forum for the benefit of others - all can take it or leave it as they choose.   ...

I notice that, while sschmez has not provided any evidence for his definitive statement that poor water at Mac Springs is caused by poor human hygiene, you do not attack him for that.

If it was the case 40 or 35 yrs ago and people are still concerned about it now, surely someone would have tested the water.  with regard to sschmez reference to human waste, even the hikers in the link refer to questionable human waste.    Who knows until the water is tested for a definite answer I guess it will remain an Urban Myth.   Who knows what the Springs or any under ground water actually passes through to be contaminated with.

http://forums.ski.com.au/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1238245&page=0

[Rowanb]

I thought an anemictoad was a skinny frog, boy dont I feel silly now.